Excommunicated Catholics can still be Christians. The term means someone who believes in Christ, and everything else is negotiable. No one Christian or sect can decide what Christianity is for everyone else.
The term means someone who “follows the teachings of Christ”, not simply that someone believes in Christ. There are plenty of people/figures that believe in Christ who are not Christians. Satan, for example, is a believer in Christ who is also not a Christian.
That sounds like semantics to me, because everyone gets to interpret the teachings of Christ for themselves.
Satan is a good example, considering that the character is an amalgam of several biblical references to evil forces like the evil spirit tempting Christ, the Snake in Genesis, and the Red Dragon in Revelations. Most of the mythology of Satan is an invention of Catholic writers.
Also, not for nothing, but Satan (presuming he’s real) would not be a “believer” as much as a colleague. Satan would know for sure that Jesus was real, was really God, and was the only path to Heaven. Of course, if we presume Satan is real, and the Bible is the literal word of God, then the only rational conclusion is that Jesus is Satan. But that’s an entirely separate discussion.
LOL. I’m very intrigued by that last paragraph but I’ll ignore it for now so as not to get off on a tangent. Feel free to expound on that, though.
semantics
It’s not about the interpretation, though, it’s about the ideas underpinning the interpretation. There are some things about Jesus’ philosophy and what it means to be one of his followers that aren’t as open to interpretation specifically because his followers supposedly asked these questions. The Golden Rule, for example, although it can be phrased in many different ways is unequivocal in its meaning (especially considering that similar ideas existed long before the Bible) - treat others the way you want to be treated. Likewise, “take the log out of your eye…” can be phrased differently but, regardless of language, is understood to mean “worry about yourself”. The idea of the religious Satan even, although open to lots of visual interpretation, is impossible to interpret as a being for good, for example, if you believe that Jesus is “good” since he’s meant to be the antithesis of Jesus’ ideals. This extends to several ideas including “hate”, “wealth”, and “prayer” and underpins the stories of people like Lazarus and Mary Magdalene. So, unless the semantic argument is that “following” Jesus doesn’t include taking his actions as a guide, I don’t actually think it’s semantic.
Also, you don’t have to convince me of the rest of what you said. I don’t believe in any of this and, in my mind, all of it is an invention of Catholic writers. It makes no difference to me at all if people call themselves Christians because that means nothing to me. I only care how they act and whether those actions are charitable and kind. It’s no different to someone calling me a “sinner”. If God’s real, guess what? I’m a sinner. Until you prove he/she/they are real, though, it doesn’t matter to me even if whether or not I’m a sinner isn’t predicated on my belief in them.
I would concede that a self proclaimed Christians ought to act in a manner consistent with the teachings, but Christianity has a massive penitent-man-shaped hole in the rules for conduct. On top of that, there are literally thousands of sects that each have their own interpretation of what rules they must follow and which rules are optional. Many consider other sects of Christianity to be heretical. So who has the last word there? Who decides the rules for everyone else? The answer is that every Christian decides for themselves. And when they fall short (which is almost universally accepted across all variations that it will happen), a Christian need only ask forgiveness for their transgressions to rejoin the flock. Sometimes there’s a pennance, but that’s also built on the honor system. It’s not a situation that allows for outsiders to evaluate the soul of a believer.
Now, if you’re saying that many Christians are feigning faith, I would not have a hard time believing that, but it doesn’t matter in the slightest. Whoever is the final arbiter of the accuracy and sincerity of Christian bona fides, I know for absolute certainty that it ain’t me. I’m not going to tell someone who claims to be a Christian that their faith is insincere, or their beliefs are inaccurate to biblical proscription. For practical purposes, and mostly because it’s easiest for me to remember, anyone claiming to be a Christian is a Christian. Full stop.
If any Christians out there want to stake exclusive claim on the term, their beef is with the pretenders. They need to work it out and get back to me, because it’s not up to me to make those determinations.
That’s a bit of an aside, though. We’re not talking about the specific doctrine of each sect of Christianity, we’re talking about what it means to be a Christian, in general, by definition. What’s the one thing that they all claim to have in common? Another user here explained it much better than I have but, by definition, Christians are only defined by the idea that Jesus is the son of god and that, therefore, we should live our lives with him as an example. If you don’t live by that example, you aren’t a Christian. That’s the most simplified way that definition can be formed. If we need to stay objective about it, then Christians must (again, by definition) do the things that Christ did and not do the things that he didn’t do or that he spoke against.
Some of this is starting to get semantical but the gist of it is that, if someone telling you that they’re something is best for you because it makes it simple for you, then that’s great but that’s not a sufficient barometer against which to compare any more than someone calling themselves a bicyclist can be considered one despite not owning a bicycle. This isn’t gender we’re talking about where it’s a self-actualization of one’s internal view of themselves. This is someone claiming to live a lifestyle that they either do or don’t. The entire issue, as the original article that this post is about highlights, is that Christians can vary the definition of what it means to be a Christian at will when it needs to suit their purposes because “being a Christian” doesn’t have to mean actually being a Christian. It just needs to mean that you said you’re a Christian. Therefore, you can point to anyone saying they’re a Christian and claim they’re not a “real” Christian (whatever that means). Someone else brought up the “No True Scotsman” fallacy but they actually meant the inverse of it. In the fallacy, there’s no “true” Scotsman because the only thing that defines whether or not someone is a Scotsman is whether they were born in Scotland. Similarly, whether someone is a Christian is only determined by whether or not they follow the teachings of Jesus and live by his example.
Excommunication is a political tool. That’s why victims of priest sexual abuse are excommunicated for speaking out, while priests are rewarded and given a new church/batch of victims
Then why are things like excommunication (where you get kicked out of the religion for going directly against beliefs) a thing?
Excommunicated Catholics can still be Christians. The term means someone who believes in Christ, and everything else is negotiable. No one Christian or sect can decide what Christianity is for everyone else.
The term means someone who “follows the teachings of Christ”, not simply that someone believes in Christ. There are plenty of people/figures that believe in Christ who are not Christians. Satan, for example, is a believer in Christ who is also not a Christian.
That sounds like semantics to me, because everyone gets to interpret the teachings of Christ for themselves.
Satan is a good example, considering that the character is an amalgam of several biblical references to evil forces like the evil spirit tempting Christ, the Snake in Genesis, and the Red Dragon in Revelations. Most of the mythology of Satan is an invention of Catholic writers.
Also, not for nothing, but Satan (presuming he’s real) would not be a “believer” as much as a colleague. Satan would know for sure that Jesus was real, was really God, and was the only path to Heaven. Of course, if we presume Satan is real, and the Bible is the literal word of God, then the only rational conclusion is that Jesus is Satan. But that’s an entirely separate discussion.
LOL. I’m very intrigued by that last paragraph but I’ll ignore it for now so as not to get off on a tangent. Feel free to expound on that, though.
It’s not about the interpretation, though, it’s about the ideas underpinning the interpretation. There are some things about Jesus’ philosophy and what it means to be one of his followers that aren’t as open to interpretation specifically because his followers supposedly asked these questions. The Golden Rule, for example, although it can be phrased in many different ways is unequivocal in its meaning (especially considering that similar ideas existed long before the Bible) - treat others the way you want to be treated. Likewise, “take the log out of your eye…” can be phrased differently but, regardless of language, is understood to mean “worry about yourself”. The idea of the religious Satan even, although open to lots of visual interpretation, is impossible to interpret as a being for good, for example, if you believe that Jesus is “good” since he’s meant to be the antithesis of Jesus’ ideals. This extends to several ideas including “hate”, “wealth”, and “prayer” and underpins the stories of people like Lazarus and Mary Magdalene. So, unless the semantic argument is that “following” Jesus doesn’t include taking his actions as a guide, I don’t actually think it’s semantic.
Also, you don’t have to convince me of the rest of what you said. I don’t believe in any of this and, in my mind, all of it is an invention of Catholic writers. It makes no difference to me at all if people call themselves Christians because that means nothing to me. I only care how they act and whether those actions are charitable and kind. It’s no different to someone calling me a “sinner”. If God’s real, guess what? I’m a sinner. Until you prove he/she/they are real, though, it doesn’t matter to me even if whether or not I’m a sinner isn’t predicated on my belief in them.
I would concede that a self proclaimed Christians ought to act in a manner consistent with the teachings, but Christianity has a massive penitent-man-shaped hole in the rules for conduct. On top of that, there are literally thousands of sects that each have their own interpretation of what rules they must follow and which rules are optional. Many consider other sects of Christianity to be heretical. So who has the last word there? Who decides the rules for everyone else? The answer is that every Christian decides for themselves. And when they fall short (which is almost universally accepted across all variations that it will happen), a Christian need only ask forgiveness for their transgressions to rejoin the flock. Sometimes there’s a pennance, but that’s also built on the honor system. It’s not a situation that allows for outsiders to evaluate the soul of a believer.
Now, if you’re saying that many Christians are feigning faith, I would not have a hard time believing that, but it doesn’t matter in the slightest. Whoever is the final arbiter of the accuracy and sincerity of Christian bona fides, I know for absolute certainty that it ain’t me. I’m not going to tell someone who claims to be a Christian that their faith is insincere, or their beliefs are inaccurate to biblical proscription. For practical purposes, and mostly because it’s easiest for me to remember, anyone claiming to be a Christian is a Christian. Full stop.
If any Christians out there want to stake exclusive claim on the term, their beef is with the pretenders. They need to work it out and get back to me, because it’s not up to me to make those determinations.
That’s a bit of an aside, though. We’re not talking about the specific doctrine of each sect of Christianity, we’re talking about what it means to be a Christian, in general, by definition. What’s the one thing that they all claim to have in common? Another user here explained it much better than I have but, by definition, Christians are only defined by the idea that Jesus is the son of god and that, therefore, we should live our lives with him as an example. If you don’t live by that example, you aren’t a Christian. That’s the most simplified way that definition can be formed. If we need to stay objective about it, then Christians must (again, by definition) do the things that Christ did and not do the things that he didn’t do or that he spoke against.
Some of this is starting to get semantical but the gist of it is that, if someone telling you that they’re something is best for you because it makes it simple for you, then that’s great but that’s not a sufficient barometer against which to compare any more than someone calling themselves a bicyclist can be considered one despite not owning a bicycle. This isn’t gender we’re talking about where it’s a self-actualization of one’s internal view of themselves. This is someone claiming to live a lifestyle that they either do or don’t. The entire issue, as the original article that this post is about highlights, is that Christians can vary the definition of what it means to be a Christian at will when it needs to suit their purposes because “being a Christian” doesn’t have to mean actually being a Christian. It just needs to mean that you said you’re a Christian. Therefore, you can point to anyone saying they’re a Christian and claim they’re not a “real” Christian (whatever that means). Someone else brought up the “No True Scotsman” fallacy but they actually meant the inverse of it. In the fallacy, there’s no “true” Scotsman because the only thing that defines whether or not someone is a Scotsman is whether they were born in Scotland. Similarly, whether someone is a Christian is only determined by whether or not they follow the teachings of Jesus and live by his example.
Excommunication is a political tool. That’s why victims of priest sexual abuse are excommunicated for speaking out, while priests are rewarded and given a new church/batch of victims