But if your end goal is to take control of the whole dream, you need to be supremely confident in your abilities, otherwise you won’t get anywhere. You need to be able to clearly assert an outcome and have full confidence that it will happen. There cannot be any doubt, there cannot be any feebleness or worry. Because the moment you begin to doubt your intention, the more likely you are to re-imply your old situation.
I disagree with this. Basically the formula for manifestation is like this:
constructive intent - contradictory intent (which includes habit, fear, ignorance, beliefs to the contrary about why it cannot happen, etc.) = manifestation.
Naturally if you make contradictory intent zero the result will be the best, all else being equal. However, given some contradictory intent, having some pro-magickal-goal intent vs not having any at all will still make some difference. You’re not going to get a gobsmackingly amazing result if the contradictory intent is huge and well-established, but there will still be some effect leaning toward the first term in that equation all else being equal between having some first term vs. having the first term “constructive intent” be zero.
The axiom is that no intent is ever lost. All intentionality is effective. If you cannot observe an effect it doesn’t mean there is not any. We experience this with mundane situations, like if you watch water boil, for some time it looks like the fire under the pot has no effect, and then suddenly the water decides to boil. In reality no heat is ever lost on the water all the while. I’m using this example as a metaphor and it shouldn’t be taken too literally, because after all I am only giving a fairly mechanical image here, which is not all that accurate.
Plus with magick there are two layers of intentionality. Any time you try to change something relatively mundane, a part of what you’re doing is changing that very aspect of experience, but another part of what you’re doing is changing your overall attitude about magick and the possibilities of magick in general. In other words, intents have a meta-component that implies something about how those intents should be interpreted going forward.
So basically magickal practice is a good thing.
That means having an iron hard resolve and committing yourself fully and completely to the desired outcome. Now the problem is that most of us still fall victim to doubt. We could commit ourselves fully, but there will always be a lingering doubt or even a thought “it’s not going to happen, I’m wasting my time”. And the only way to counter that is to stop caring about the results. And to stop caring, it might mean to adopt a state of “just being”.
I disagree completely. One has to be sincere. If you don’t care about a result you won’t get any result. You must be interested in a result and care about it, but not care to the point of being paralyzed and desperate. If one is desperate, that’s a fragile and disempowered state of mind, but disinterest is another form of disempowerment. The middle way is the best.
What really needs to happen is not so much “just being” but rather a state where you continually think (or better yet, know, if you can), “All appearances are false, only my will is true.” This isn’t a state of “just being” or “hardly giving any fucks.” It’s a state where you are focused on your goal, but you are able to completely disregard the suggestions in the suggestive appearances. In other words, you’re guiding the appearances instead of allowing yourself to be guided and informed by them, as would be the case with the usual evidential thinking.
Paging /u/AesirAnatman to read this reply.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-11 11:10:24 (dmu5t0f)
Naturally if you make contradictory intent zero the result will be the best, all else being equal. However, given some contradictory intent, having some pro-magickal-goal intent vs not having any at all will still make some difference. You’re not going to get a gobsmackingly amazing result if the contradictory intent is huge and well-established, but there will still be some effect leaning toward the first term in that equation all else being equal between having some first term vs. having the first term “constructive intent” be zero.
I agree with all of this, I might not have worded it properly, but we’re on the same page when it comes to intending outcomes.
rather a state where you continually think (or better yet, know, if you can), “All appearances are false, only my will is true.”
Yes, I agree. A state of “just being” is more of a transitional tool, rather than a final end state. The means of getting to the state you described will vary for different people, for me personally, I’ve chosen the “just being” state as my means.
I’ll copy the rough definition I had in the reply to Aesir:
A state of “just being” would be a state of complete non-attachment. When you’re completely un-attached, contradictory intent is reduced by a large margin. Being non-attached doesn’t mean being separate from your desires, but being non-attached to everything around you. You’ll probably feel more content with your circumstances, regardless of what they are. And because you’re content in the moment, you can intend an outcome and have it happen because the contradictory intent is very minimal.
So your final state would be one where you are in full conscious control, and by accepting your circumstances as they are, you can fully intend outcomes and have them happen. Because it’s resistance that stops intentions from manifesting. Theoretically, I could intend a certain outcome and it should absolutely be able to manifest cleanly and quickly. The only thing standing in my way is resistance, that’s literally the only thing that is stopping me, it’s nothing more complicated than that. Eliminate resistance by accepting your circumstances (being non-attached) and your intention will manifest, obviously easier said than done of course.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-09-11 16:47:31 (dmui2b7)
Exactly. It’s actually non-trivial to word things well when explaining magick. It takes a lot of effort and attention and practice.
The means of getting to the state you described will vary for different people, for me personally, I’ve chosen the “just being” state as my means.
Whatever floats your boat. From my POV the state I am talking about is so drastically different or even flat-out contradictory to the conventional state, that there is no overly smooth and totally gradual way of getting to it. In my experience it’s a gradual process that’s marked by some challenges, growth spurts, sudden breakthroughs, crushing fears followed by 10 steps back, only to later make 20 steps forward again due to a diamond-like resolve, and so on. It’s not such a simple and straightforward process.
I’ve been harping how “all is mind” all my adult life, but my understanding has grown. It’s not that I ever was wrong in the past or I said wrong things, it’s just that I didn’t know the half of it. I was right, but I didn’t know how and why I was right as exactly as I know it today.
So even if someone understands something correctly, it doesn’t mean they understand if fully. There are progressive stages of deepening that attend even the most correct understanding, provided one keeps making continual efforts and remains resolute.
I’m not against the talk of “just being” but to me it sounds very close to relaxing. I think relaxing is very necessary and is healthy, but how specifically one relaxes, the various details of that relaxation, and the ratio of relaxation to effort, and the details of effort, it all matters in the end. Too much relaxation is not very good either. I think “just being” tends to cultivate the tolerance side much more than it cultivates expressiveness, but a complete mage in my view needs both sides to be well developed.
Here tolerance means being undisturbed and basically “OK” no matter what experience is like. And expressiveness means being able to intend anything at any time, without being led by suggestive appearances. So expressiveness is helped by having a giant imagination and also by not allowing appearances to function as a metaphysical leash to one’s mind (being informed by appearances, and even flowing along with the appearances is still being led by them to some extent, and it’s like being leashed up by what appears).
To me an ideal state is not only just this or only just that. It’s more like this: when I relax, I relax well. When I intend something to happen, I intend well. When I stay still, I stay still well. When I move, I move well. It’s to be excellent in every aspect instead of cultivating this kind of floaty attitude all the time. One has to have a big range instead of cultivating a narrow range. That said, if you were habitually a busybody in your recent past, then to overcome the disease of excessive struggle and effort, as an antidote, one can cultivate “just being.” But once your prior excess has been settled down, it’s better to return to cultivating oneself across a broad range of attitudes instead of just sticking to one attitude of floating along.
Eliminate resistance by accepting your circumstances (being non-attached) and your intention will manifest, obviously easier said than done of course.
I don’t agree. On the contrary – reject your circumstances completely. Don’t accept anything. Don’t even accept the sky and the Earth.
All appearances are false. Only my will is true.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-11 17:09:55 (dmuil0u)
I disagree with this. Basically the formula for manifestation is like this:
constructive intent - contradictory intent (which includes habit, fear, ignorance, beliefs to the contrary about why it cannot happen, etc.) = manifestation.
Naturally if you make contradictory intent zero the result will be the best, all else being equal. However, given some contradictory intent, having some pro-magickal-goal intent vs not having any at all will still make some difference. You’re not going to get a gobsmackingly amazing result if the contradictory intent is huge and well-established, but there will still be some effect leaning toward the first term in that equation all else being equal between having some first term vs. having the first term “constructive intent” be zero.
The axiom is that no intent is ever lost. All intentionality is effective. If you cannot observe an effect it doesn’t mean there is not any. We experience this with mundane situations, like if you watch water boil, for some time it looks like the fire under the pot has no effect, and then suddenly the water decides to boil. In reality no heat is ever lost on the water all the while. I’m using this example as a metaphor and it shouldn’t be taken too literally, because after all I am only giving a fairly mechanical image here, which is not all that accurate.
Plus with magick there are two layers of intentionality. Any time you try to change something relatively mundane, a part of what you’re doing is changing that very aspect of experience, but another part of what you’re doing is changing your overall attitude about magick and the possibilities of magick in general. In other words, intents have a meta-component that implies something about how those intents should be interpreted going forward.
So basically magickal practice is a good thing.
I disagree completely. One has to be sincere. If you don’t care about a result you won’t get any result. You must be interested in a result and care about it, but not care to the point of being paralyzed and desperate. If one is desperate, that’s a fragile and disempowered state of mind, but disinterest is another form of disempowerment. The middle way is the best.
What really needs to happen is not so much “just being” but rather a state where you continually think (or better yet, know, if you can), “All appearances are false, only my will is true.” This isn’t a state of “just being” or “hardly giving any fucks.” It’s a state where you are focused on your goal, but you are able to completely disregard the suggestions in the suggestive appearances. In other words, you’re guiding the appearances instead of allowing yourself to be guided and informed by them, as would be the case with the usual evidential thinking.
Paging /u/AesirAnatman to read this reply.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-11 11:10:24 (dmu5t0f)
I agree with all of this, I might not have worded it properly, but we’re on the same page when it comes to intending outcomes.
Yes, I agree. A state of “just being” is more of a transitional tool, rather than a final end state. The means of getting to the state you described will vary for different people, for me personally, I’ve chosen the “just being” state as my means.
I’ll copy the rough definition I had in the reply to Aesir:
A state of “just being” would be a state of complete non-attachment. When you’re completely un-attached, contradictory intent is reduced by a large margin. Being non-attached doesn’t mean being separate from your desires, but being non-attached to everything around you. You’ll probably feel more content with your circumstances, regardless of what they are. And because you’re content in the moment, you can intend an outcome and have it happen because the contradictory intent is very minimal.
So your final state would be one where you are in full conscious control, and by accepting your circumstances as they are, you can fully intend outcomes and have them happen. Because it’s resistance that stops intentions from manifesting. Theoretically, I could intend a certain outcome and it should absolutely be able to manifest cleanly and quickly. The only thing standing in my way is resistance, that’s literally the only thing that is stopping me, it’s nothing more complicated than that. Eliminate resistance by accepting your circumstances (being non-attached) and your intention will manifest, obviously easier said than done of course.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-09-11 16:47:31 (dmui2b7)
Exactly. It’s actually non-trivial to word things well when explaining magick. It takes a lot of effort and attention and practice.
Whatever floats your boat. From my POV the state I am talking about is so drastically different or even flat-out contradictory to the conventional state, that there is no overly smooth and totally gradual way of getting to it. In my experience it’s a gradual process that’s marked by some challenges, growth spurts, sudden breakthroughs, crushing fears followed by 10 steps back, only to later make 20 steps forward again due to a diamond-like resolve, and so on. It’s not such a simple and straightforward process.
I’ve been harping how “all is mind” all my adult life, but my understanding has grown. It’s not that I ever was wrong in the past or I said wrong things, it’s just that I didn’t know the half of it. I was right, but I didn’t know how and why I was right as exactly as I know it today.
So even if someone understands something correctly, it doesn’t mean they understand if fully. There are progressive stages of deepening that attend even the most correct understanding, provided one keeps making continual efforts and remains resolute.
I’m not against the talk of “just being” but to me it sounds very close to relaxing. I think relaxing is very necessary and is healthy, but how specifically one relaxes, the various details of that relaxation, and the ratio of relaxation to effort, and the details of effort, it all matters in the end. Too much relaxation is not very good either. I think “just being” tends to cultivate the tolerance side much more than it cultivates expressiveness, but a complete mage in my view needs both sides to be well developed.
Here tolerance means being undisturbed and basically “OK” no matter what experience is like. And expressiveness means being able to intend anything at any time, without being led by suggestive appearances. So expressiveness is helped by having a giant imagination and also by not allowing appearances to function as a metaphysical leash to one’s mind (being informed by appearances, and even flowing along with the appearances is still being led by them to some extent, and it’s like being leashed up by what appears).
To me an ideal state is not only just this or only just that. It’s more like this: when I relax, I relax well. When I intend something to happen, I intend well. When I stay still, I stay still well. When I move, I move well. It’s to be excellent in every aspect instead of cultivating this kind of floaty attitude all the time. One has to have a big range instead of cultivating a narrow range. That said, if you were habitually a busybody in your recent past, then to overcome the disease of excessive struggle and effort, as an antidote, one can cultivate “just being.” But once your prior excess has been settled down, it’s better to return to cultivating oneself across a broad range of attitudes instead of just sticking to one attitude of floating along.
I don’t agree. On the contrary – reject your circumstances completely. Don’t accept anything. Don’t even accept the sky and the Earth.
All appearances are false. Only my will is true.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-11 17:09:55 (dmuil0u)
I agree with everything you wrote here.
Did you happen to catch my comment on magical travel at the top of the discussion thread?
I set the discussion thread to default to new comments on top, btw.
Originally commented by u/AesirAnatman on 2017-09-11 13:33:33 (dmuc2xk)
Probably not? I’ll look for it.
That’s great.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-11 13:44:23 (dmuci16)