There is an explicitly genocidal party in this conflict, and it isn’t Israel. Only one party has committed a genocide in this long conflict, and once again, it wasn’t Israel.
For the first time in 1,000 years not a single Jew remains in the Jewish Quarter. Not a single building remains intact. This makes the Jews’ return here impossible
In his memoir’s Col. El Tell outlined his decision to attack Jewish Quarter:
“The operations of calculated destruction were set in motion. I Knew that the Jewish Quarter was densely populated with Jewish populations who caused their fighters a good deal of interference and difficulty. I embarked, therefore on shelling of the quarter with mortars creating harassment and destruction. Only for days after our entry into Jerusalem, the Jewish Quarter become their graveyard. Death and destruction reigned over it. As the down of May 28th was about to break, the Jewish Quarter emerged in convulsive cloud-a cloud of death and agony” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Jerusalem#Islamization_of_Jerusalem_under_Jordanian_rule
Self-defense is not genocide. Such accusations only serve to aid the genocidal.
You’re quoting a war that took place in the 40’s as if it’s recent.
The past 70 years of Israeli control are a lot more relevant to current conflicts, you are ignoring a mountain of atrocities carried out by Israel onto Palastinian civilians.
Israel is an apartheid state. If you’re going to argue that obvious fact and claim that the people of Gaza deserve to be murdered em masse, then there is no discussion to be had here: you are a piece of shit.
It’s the same war, been going on for 70+ years. The Palestinians often cite the Nakba as one of their motivations for intifada, and that also occurred at that time.
20% of Israel’s population are Palestinians/Arabic, and they are not subject to the same restrictions. It’s clear this is about defending themselves from a hostile and violent belligerent nation, not imposing racial hierarchy. The situation Palestinian civilians find themselves in was caused by popular support for Hamas and intifada and an unwillingness to lay down arms. Their government mass murdered and raped civilians next door in a country with a superior military, these consequences should be unsurprising.
Thanks for the additional polling info, some of those figures are fascinating.
73% believe Palestine will win, 3% believe Israel will win
75% of respondents expected a victory in which Gaza repels the Israeli invasion
This tells me that they don’t understand the realities of their situation and are likely heavily propagandized, which just makes it all the more tragic. One cannot compromise if they don’t understand there is a need to.
This paints a picture of a group that approves of Hamas’ approach, is unwilling to surrender, negotiate, and will not agree to a 2-state solution. They like what happened on Oct 7. If this is the case, what other alternative is there but war until the threat no longer exists? I suspect this unwillingness to compromise will be their undoing.
I’m not sure you understand what life has been like under Israeli military occupation.
If you care to learn more, I urge you to read or listen to the books
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
The Biggest Prison on Earth A History of the Occupied Territories
A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples
All by Ilan Pappe who uses official Israeli documents, testimonies by Israeli officials, Arab sources, and oral history to piece together a comprehensive history of Israel and Palestine. I’m sure you’ll discredit it as bias, which it is, he says so himself. But that doesn’t change how credible his work is. Go into it with a skeptical eye and verify everything he talks about on your own. It’s a deep dive but it’s worth it.
Obligatory reminder that the most recent election in Gaza happened before half the current population were even born. One of the reasons this debacle is so unpopular internationally is that half the civillians being massacred are children. (It was during the GW Bush era in the US so this is a bit like blaming Millenials for the person the Boomers elected decades ago). One of the reasons this debacle is so unpopular internationally is that half the civillians being massacred are children
As the above polls show, Palestinian support for Hamas has only increased since then, (74% at present,) with that level of popularity they would easily be reelected today.
Unfortunately said children are also indoctrinated into intifada, continuing the cycle of violence. I’m not sure what the answer is, but one is not immune from reprisals for violence simply because they have a high fertility rate.
American Millennials will indeed have to deal with the repercussions of what Bush, and every other president did. Causality doesn’t reset with every generation, this is a 70+ year old multi-generational conflict at this point.
Every nation in the world has to live with some of the consequences of actions from previous generations.
However, the idea that civillians should be punished for the actions of governments is inhumane and antithetical to justice for most people, which is why we have international laws against this.
Civillians in nations which can hold regular free and fair elections are able to have a say in the direction of their country. Gaza under Hamas (which was supported by a faction of Israelis including Netanyahu) have not even been granted that.
Moreover, they have not been allowed the kinds of conditions in which a free and fair democracy could flourish.
History has shown again and again that oppressed people will tend to side with whoever resists their oppressors - whether this is the Mau Mau, the ANC, the IRA, Robespiere, the Houhou, the Ghost Dance, various coups.
If there is only one viable channel of resistance to an occupying power, then of course people will support it because the only alternative is passive hopelessness. This does not mean it’s what they would choose if they had choices.
By tacitly supporting Hamas for years, Israel itself played a large part in the curtailing of other options in Gaza. It’s disingenous of them to now blame the occupied civillians for this particular political landscape.
Go fuck yourself dude. Oh 20% of people aren’t subjected to inhumane restrictions and have access to basic needs? Wow, Israel must not be doing anything wrong, totally the most moral army in the world.
I don’t support Hamas, but saying that all of Palestine is responsible for the actions of some is the literal definition of collective punishment. You said it yourself, Israel is the more powerful military and has held the governmental power in the region for recent history, but Hamas is the one doing genocide?? How the fuck do you expect an entire region that has been stripped of their rights, water, food, housing, culture, history, and family to react?
But please, continue justifying the murder of children because of some religious bullshit.
Oh 20% of people aren’t subjected to inhumane restrictions and have access to basic needs? Wow,
You’re moving the goalposts, we were talking about whether it’s apartheid. People of the same racial group who aren’t violent are being treated better than a group of people who are violent. It’s clearly not about racial hierarchy, apartheid, it’s about a nation literally trying to murder and genocide them for the last 70 years being subjected to restrictions.
Israel must not be doing anything wrong, totally the most moral army in the world.
Never claimed they were the most moral in the world, or that they do nothing wrong, but they have shown an amazing amount of restraint over the years. I’m not aware of any other forces that often call and give warning to civilians before they bomb. As I have shown above, when the shoe was on the other foot, Palestinian forces showed no such restraint.
I don’t support Hamas, but saying that all of Palestine is responsible for the actions of some is the literal definition of collective punishment.
That’s how war between nations works. When a government goes to war, everyone under their leadership in their territory shares the consequences of this. You seem to be implying that every war, ever, is collective punishment and therefore a war crime.
Let’s not forget that Hamas was once elected by Gazans and still has popular support in Palestine (74%, it went up after Oct 7.) I feel bad for the 26% who are stuck there with Hamas and their supporters, the rest are evidently getting what they want.
You said it yourself, Israel is the more powerful military and has held the governmental power in the region for recent history, but Hamas is the one doing genocide??
Hamas is clearly and openly advocating for genocide, (citation above,) they simply lack the means. Israel denies they are. Just because they are at the losing end of asymmetrical warfare does not make them the good guys, in this case the underdog wants genocide and if they ever get the upper hand again, I have no doubt they will commit it.
How the fuck do you expect an entire region that has been stripped of their rights, water, food, housing, culture, history, and family to react?
I’d expect them to be pissed off but acknowledge the realities of their situation and try to hold on to what they still have, and get back their rights and autonomy through peaceful negotiations. However, polls indicate they want endless intifada, all or nothing, and this is where that road leads.
You’re the one moving goal posts and ignoring the 80% of people experiencing apartheid. What else do you call the sanctions on the west bank? Is this another “special military operation”? You’re harping on Hamas but ignore everything Israel has done to create this conflict.
I love how Palestine is expected to peacefully negotiate with people forcing them from their homes and keeping basic human needs from the majority of the population. Like should I ask my rapist to please kindly stop raping?
You’re a sack of shit dude. And yes, every war is unjust and wrong on both sides. Every US president is a war criminal, but that doesn’t mean every American should pay for those crimes.
There is absolutely nothing that Hamas or Palestinians could do to Israel that justifies bombing one for the most densely populated areas in the world. The response does not match the crime and the fact that you are still staunchly supporting an apartheid state tells me that you’re not worth arguing with.
Go fuck yourself, zionists have no place in a peaceful world
I love how Palestine is expected to peacefully negotiate with people forcing them from their homes and keeping basic human needs from the majority of the population.
Well it’s an improvement over the status quo: declare war on Israel, lose land, have restrictions imposed, repeat. If they keep this up and ignore the realities of their situation there will be no Palestine, and that would be a shame for everyone. One cannot win wars with moral outrage alone.
Like should I ask my rapist to please kindly stop raping?
Distasteful analogy, making literal rapists into metaphorical victims of rape.
And yes, every war is unjust and wrong on both sides. Every US president is a war criminal, but that doesn’t mean every American should pay for those crimes.
That’s usually how wars go, who do you think pays reparations, the elected representative or the taxpayer? Who do you think will suffer the consequences of destroyed infrastructure? Who do you think will have their loved ones returned in body bags? Citizens, who must face the consequences of the decisions their government makes. Let’s not pretend this isn’t so.
There is absolutely nothing that Hamas or Palestinians could do to Israel that justifies bombing one for the most densely populated areas in the world.
So they should have done what instead, let them get away with Oct 7 with impunity? Sent in ground forces into a guerilla terrorist den without air support causing high casualties? Good thing you’re not in charge. I suspect if it were your nation that was attacked like that you’d feel differently.
You’re a sack of shit dude. … Go fuck yourself, zionists have no place in a peaceful world
I share my position respectfully and cite sources, you yell and scream and call me a sack of shit. My bad for trying to have a reasonable conversation with those who disagree, I guess.
The response does not match the crime and the fact that you are still staunchly supporting an apartheid state tells me that you’re not worth arguing with.
The fact that you behave this way makes me agree, not that Israel is an apartheid state, that you’re not worth arguing with. Good day, be better.
There is an explicitly genocidal party in this conflict, and it isn’t Israel. Only one party has committed a genocide in this long conflict, and once again, it wasn’t Israel.
Self-defense is not genocide. Such accusations only serve to aid the genocidal.
You’re quoting a war that took place in the 40’s as if it’s recent.
The past 70 years of Israeli control are a lot more relevant to current conflicts, you are ignoring a mountain of atrocities carried out by Israel onto Palastinian civilians.
Israel is an apartheid state. If you’re going to argue that obvious fact and claim that the people of Gaza deserve to be murdered em masse, then there is no discussion to be had here: you are a piece of shit.
It’s the same war, been going on for 70+ years. The Palestinians often cite the Nakba as one of their motivations for intifada, and that also occurred at that time.
20% of Israel’s population are Palestinians/Arabic, and they are not subject to the same restrictions. It’s clear this is about defending themselves from a hostile and violent belligerent nation, not imposing racial hierarchy. The situation Palestinian civilians find themselves in was caused by popular support for Hamas and intifada and an unwillingness to lay down arms. Their government mass murdered and raped civilians next door in a country with a superior military, these consequences should be unsurprising.
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public Opinion Poll - Gaza War 2023.pdf
http://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll 79 English fulltext March 2021.pdf
Thanks for the additional polling info, some of those figures are fascinating.
This tells me that they don’t understand the realities of their situation and are likely heavily propagandized, which just makes it all the more tragic. One cannot compromise if they don’t understand there is a need to.
This paints a picture of a group that approves of Hamas’ approach, is unwilling to surrender, negotiate, and will not agree to a 2-state solution. They like what happened on Oct 7. If this is the case, what other alternative is there but war until the threat no longer exists? I suspect this unwillingness to compromise will be their undoing.
I’m not sure you understand what life has been like under Israeli military occupation.
If you care to learn more, I urge you to read or listen to the books
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
The Biggest Prison on Earth A History of the Occupied Territories
A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples
All by Ilan Pappe who uses official Israeli documents, testimonies by Israeli officials, Arab sources, and oral history to piece together a comprehensive history of Israel and Palestine. I’m sure you’ll discredit it as bias, which it is, he says so himself. But that doesn’t change how credible his work is. Go into it with a skeptical eye and verify everything he talks about on your own. It’s a deep dive but it’s worth it.
Obligatory reminder that the most recent election in Gaza happened before half the current population were even born, let alone eligible to vote.
(It was during the GW Bush era in the US so this is a bit like blaming Millenials for the person the Boomers elected decades ago).
One of the reasons this debacle is so unpopular internationally is that half the civillians being massacred are children.
As the above polls show, Palestinian support for Hamas has only increased since then, (74% at present,) with that level of popularity they would easily be reelected today.
Unfortunately said children are also indoctrinated into intifada, continuing the cycle of violence. I’m not sure what the answer is, but one is not immune from reprisals for violence simply because they have a high fertility rate.
American Millennials will indeed have to deal with the repercussions of what Bush, and every other president did. Causality doesn’t reset with every generation, this is a 70+ year old multi-generational conflict at this point.
Every nation in the world has to live with some of the consequences of actions from previous generations.
However, the idea that civillians should be punished for the actions of governments is inhumane and antithetical to justice for most people, which is why we have international laws against this.
Civillians in nations which can hold regular free and fair elections are able to have a say in the direction of their country. Gaza under Hamas (which was supported by a faction of Israelis including Netanyahu) have not even been granted that.
Moreover, they have not been allowed the kinds of conditions in which a free and fair democracy could flourish.
History has shown again and again that oppressed people will tend to side with whoever resists their oppressors - whether this is the Mau Mau, the ANC, the IRA, Robespiere, the Houhou, the Ghost Dance, various coups.
If there is only one viable channel of resistance to an occupying power, then of course people will support it because the only alternative is passive hopelessness. This does not mean it’s what they would choose if they had choices.
By tacitly supporting Hamas for years, Israel itself played a large part in the curtailing of other options in Gaza. It’s disingenous of them to now blame the occupied civillians for this particular political landscape.
Go fuck yourself dude. Oh 20% of people aren’t subjected to inhumane restrictions and have access to basic needs? Wow, Israel must not be doing anything wrong, totally the most moral army in the world.
I don’t support Hamas, but saying that all of Palestine is responsible for the actions of some is the literal definition of collective punishment. You said it yourself, Israel is the more powerful military and has held the governmental power in the region for recent history, but Hamas is the one doing genocide?? How the fuck do you expect an entire region that has been stripped of their rights, water, food, housing, culture, history, and family to react?
But please, continue justifying the murder of children because of some religious bullshit.
You’re moving the goalposts, we were talking about whether it’s apartheid. People of the same racial group who aren’t violent are being treated better than a group of people who are violent. It’s clearly not about racial hierarchy, apartheid, it’s about a nation literally trying to murder and genocide them for the last 70 years being subjected to restrictions.
Never claimed they were the most moral in the world, or that they do nothing wrong, but they have shown an amazing amount of restraint over the years. I’m not aware of any other forces that often call and give warning to civilians before they bomb. As I have shown above, when the shoe was on the other foot, Palestinian forces showed no such restraint.
That’s how war between nations works. When a government goes to war, everyone under their leadership in their territory shares the consequences of this. You seem to be implying that every war, ever, is collective punishment and therefore a war crime.
Let’s not forget that Hamas was once elected by Gazans and still has popular support in Palestine (74%, it went up after Oct 7.) I feel bad for the 26% who are stuck there with Hamas and their supporters, the rest are evidently getting what they want.
Hamas is clearly and openly advocating for genocide, (citation above,) they simply lack the means. Israel denies they are. Just because they are at the losing end of asymmetrical warfare does not make them the good guys, in this case the underdog wants genocide and if they ever get the upper hand again, I have no doubt they will commit it.
I’d expect them to be pissed off but acknowledge the realities of their situation and try to hold on to what they still have, and get back their rights and autonomy through peaceful negotiations. However, polls indicate they want endless intifada, all or nothing, and this is where that road leads.
You’re the one moving goal posts and ignoring the 80% of people experiencing apartheid. What else do you call the sanctions on the west bank? Is this another “special military operation”? You’re harping on Hamas but ignore everything Israel has done to create this conflict.
I love how Palestine is expected to peacefully negotiate with people forcing them from their homes and keeping basic human needs from the majority of the population. Like should I ask my rapist to please kindly stop raping?
You’re a sack of shit dude. And yes, every war is unjust and wrong on both sides. Every US president is a war criminal, but that doesn’t mean every American should pay for those crimes.
There is absolutely nothing that Hamas or Palestinians could do to Israel that justifies bombing one for the most densely populated areas in the world. The response does not match the crime and the fact that you are still staunchly supporting an apartheid state tells me that you’re not worth arguing with.
Go fuck yourself, zionists have no place in a peaceful world
Well it’s an improvement over the status quo: declare war on Israel, lose land, have restrictions imposed, repeat. If they keep this up and ignore the realities of their situation there will be no Palestine, and that would be a shame for everyone. One cannot win wars with moral outrage alone.
Distasteful analogy, making literal rapists into metaphorical victims of rape.
That’s usually how wars go, who do you think pays reparations, the elected representative or the taxpayer? Who do you think will suffer the consequences of destroyed infrastructure? Who do you think will have their loved ones returned in body bags? Citizens, who must face the consequences of the decisions their government makes. Let’s not pretend this isn’t so.
So they should have done what instead, let them get away with Oct 7 with impunity? Sent in ground forces into a guerilla terrorist den without air support causing high casualties? Good thing you’re not in charge. I suspect if it were your nation that was attacked like that you’d feel differently.
I share my position respectfully and cite sources, you yell and scream and call me a sack of shit. My bad for trying to have a reasonable conversation with those who disagree, I guess.
The fact that you behave this way makes me agree, not that Israel is an apartheid state, that you’re not worth arguing with. Good day, be better.