I was gonna say “good” but settled on “decent”. He was certainly flawed like any of us, but he was a loving father and husband who was using his knowledge to teach the next generation. I think he was resentful of how his life panned out, and that’s why he so quickly decided to spend his remaining years proving that there was greatness within him to achieve something so much more, especially in spite of the whole Gray Matter thing.
Huh, I didn’t get that at all when I last watched the show. I see him as a static character. Even back as early as Gray Matter, I thought the writers strongly implied that Walter’s memories of getting screwed were highly unreliable, twisted by his own pride and his feelings of rejection by Gretchen. Now he’s owed something. I see the root evil as Walter’s narcissism, not the drugs, and I have an easier time forgiving him for the drugs and murder than I do his willful ignorance. The former were only in service to the latter. Loving father and husband? I can’t agree. I think he became a drug kingpin only because opportunity and circumstance changed around him.
I don’t disagree with your general assessment, but I can’t remember whether the Gray Matter flashbacks were objective or narrated by him and therefore susceptible to an unreliable narrator, so you could be right on that point. He was an incredibly proud man, always. You’re definitely correct that he was narcissistic for most of the show, but idk about before the diagnosis. I found him to be meek and passive before the diagnosis, and understandably upset by the unfairness that despite playing by the rules and living his small life without vices he still got a death sentence. He was disappointed in what happened at Gray Matter and envious of its massive success once he left, disappointed by having a son that can’t ever be as abled as he was, disappointed that he’s stuck busting his ass at TWO thankless jobs that pay peanuts just to make ends meet, and ultimately disappointed that this was all he ever got to experience in his woefully shortened life. It’s understandable that with his ticking clock that he would become much more selfish and controlling, especially regarding his stated goal of leaving something behind to take care of his family, which may have been true at one point but it’s unclear when that would’ve changed. Upon first watch, we the audience understand his desperation and it’s presented in a way that we aren’t sure that we wouldn’t be capable of something similar. Wrong things done for the right reasons and all that. The show barely touches on the end users of his product, so all we see is that he does something immoral to make up for the hole he’s leaving behind. It’s an indictment of the profit-motivated healthcare system here in the US, and later with corporate sponsorship and Walter’s lust for money over all it becomes an indictment on capitalism in general.
I think he was content enough with his lackluster life because he figured it would pay off in the end. If he weren’t decent before the diagnosis, I’m not sure that he would’ve sacrificed so much to take care of his family in terms of working two jobs and submitting to everything his wife and son needed and wanted. He wasn’t great or even good, but he held himself accountable for his choices, which in my book makes him decent. And then episode one happened and we saw that even a decent man could break bad.
I was wrong; Walter left Gretchen!
I don’t remember any flashbacks explicitly about his departure; I think this scene is the best we get and we have to extrapolate from there. Maybe I’ll have to binge the series again just to be sure.
I should also admit my bias; having dealt with in-laws with severe cluster B personality disorders, I’m going to have a hard time feeling any pity for a narcissist. Even the ones that seek psychological help have statistically bad outcomes. Mind you, regarding Walter White and narcissism, I’m talking about actual NPD, which typically reveals itself at the onset of adulthood, not later in life. Lousy circumstances can certainly embitter a narcissist, and narcissists do often get worse with age, but I don’t know of any real-world pathway for a normal person in Walter’s position to become a narcissist. As for why this necessarily makes him indecent, I’d recommend lurking on r/RaisedbyNarcissists.
I think “he held himself accountable for his choices” might actually be our point of contention, but I have to admit I don’t really know what that means to you. I never use the phrase. Walter was always accountable to himself; that was kinda the problem. Maybe having multiple jobs is evidence that he was accountable to his family, but we’re also talking about a man motivated by the admiration of others, so the benefit to his family could’ve just been a byproduct.
Excellent points. Sorry about the history that led to your bias btw.
I think a lot about his admission to Skyler about having done it for himself because of how great that moment was. I think that it’s most likely that it was always true, but he probably didn’t realize it until he had a lot of time to think back on it and reflect. I’ve certainly looked back at how shitty I was when I was younger and had the realization that I had been a selfish prick but thought I was a good person at the time.
When I said that he held himself accountable for his choices, I meant that if he were a selfish and indecent person, he might’ve backed out of the responsibilities he signed up for when things didn’t serve him. I think I remember that there was a flashback of seeing the house and that he didn’t think it was a good buy because of the price vs his salary but he relented for the sake of his family. He stuck around with Skyler despite being pretty clearly unhappy. He stuck to teaching despite having a great scientific mind that could’ve achieved much more. When they got pregnant again like 15 years after having their first child, I’m assuming that it wasn’t a planned pregnancy. Walter just kinda let life happen to him, and he took on more and more burden. He was committed to that family no matter how much they walked over him and expected their wants and needs to come before his own. Internalizing all of that expectation played a significant role in him snapping. He could’ve set clear barriers, gently or otherwise, or completely walked out, but instead he gave them everything until he realized he had already given nearly everything he would ever be capable of giving.
So, did he actually enter the meth business with the goal of giving them even more? It would align with his character before since that’s really all he’s ever done and maybe all he knows how to do. Or was he finally being selfish for once just before his death rattle that was coming any day now? It really doesn’t matter. For me, I think it’s possible that his admission to Skyler that he had been doing it for himself may have actually been one last lie, trying to atone for his sins that caused his family so much pain and damage; he may have been giving her what she wanted to hear to allow her to hate him and blame him; he may have been giving her the one, final thing he had left to give: his pride. It’s possible that he was falling on his sword for the foolish gamble he took; he may have thought that he was only gambling with his own life which was already forfeit anyway, but he instead gambled away the lives of the people he was working so hard to secure. Ironic.
Or maybe he was just a total piece of shit from birth. Idk, I’m not Vince Gilligan lol.
I was gonna say “good” but settled on “decent”. He was certainly flawed like any of us, but he was a loving father and husband who was using his knowledge to teach the next generation. I think he was resentful of how his life panned out, and that’s why he so quickly decided to spend his remaining years proving that there was greatness within him to achieve something so much more, especially in spite of the whole Gray Matter thing.
Huh, I didn’t get that at all when I last watched the show. I see him as a static character. Even back as early as Gray Matter, I thought the writers strongly implied that Walter’s memories of getting screwed were highly unreliable, twisted by his own pride and his feelings of rejection by Gretchen. Now he’s owed something. I see the root evil as Walter’s narcissism, not the drugs, and I have an easier time forgiving him for the drugs and murder than I do his willful ignorance. The former were only in service to the latter. Loving father and husband? I can’t agree. I think he became a drug kingpin only because opportunity and circumstance changed around him.
I don’t disagree with your general assessment, but I can’t remember whether the Gray Matter flashbacks were objective or narrated by him and therefore susceptible to an unreliable narrator, so you could be right on that point. He was an incredibly proud man, always. You’re definitely correct that he was narcissistic for most of the show, but idk about before the diagnosis. I found him to be meek and passive before the diagnosis, and understandably upset by the unfairness that despite playing by the rules and living his small life without vices he still got a death sentence. He was disappointed in what happened at Gray Matter and envious of its massive success once he left, disappointed by having a son that can’t ever be as abled as he was, disappointed that he’s stuck busting his ass at TWO thankless jobs that pay peanuts just to make ends meet, and ultimately disappointed that this was all he ever got to experience in his woefully shortened life. It’s understandable that with his ticking clock that he would become much more selfish and controlling, especially regarding his stated goal of leaving something behind to take care of his family, which may have been true at one point but it’s unclear when that would’ve changed. Upon first watch, we the audience understand his desperation and it’s presented in a way that we aren’t sure that we wouldn’t be capable of something similar. Wrong things done for the right reasons and all that. The show barely touches on the end users of his product, so all we see is that he does something immoral to make up for the hole he’s leaving behind. It’s an indictment of the profit-motivated healthcare system here in the US, and later with corporate sponsorship and Walter’s lust for money over all it becomes an indictment on capitalism in general.
I think he was content enough with his lackluster life because he figured it would pay off in the end. If he weren’t decent before the diagnosis, I’m not sure that he would’ve sacrificed so much to take care of his family in terms of working two jobs and submitting to everything his wife and son needed and wanted. He wasn’t great or even good, but he held himself accountable for his choices, which in my book makes him decent. And then episode one happened and we saw that even a decent man could break bad.
I was wrong; Walter left Gretchen! I don’t remember any flashbacks explicitly about his departure; I think this scene is the best we get and we have to extrapolate from there. Maybe I’ll have to binge the series again just to be sure.
I’ll add one more piece of evidence: “All the things I did, you need to understand… I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And… I was alive”. I don’t know if Walter is thinking as far back as episode 1 when he says this, but I’m willing to bet Skyler would understand it that way.
I should also admit my bias; having dealt with in-laws with severe cluster B personality disorders, I’m going to have a hard time feeling any pity for a narcissist. Even the ones that seek psychological help have statistically bad outcomes. Mind you, regarding Walter White and narcissism, I’m talking about actual NPD, which typically reveals itself at the onset of adulthood, not later in life. Lousy circumstances can certainly embitter a narcissist, and narcissists do often get worse with age, but I don’t know of any real-world pathway for a normal person in Walter’s position to become a narcissist. As for why this necessarily makes him indecent, I’d recommend lurking on r/RaisedbyNarcissists.
I think “he held himself accountable for his choices” might actually be our point of contention, but I have to admit I don’t really know what that means to you. I never use the phrase. Walter was always accountable to himself; that was kinda the problem. Maybe having multiple jobs is evidence that he was accountable to his family, but we’re also talking about a man motivated by the admiration of others, so the benefit to his family could’ve just been a byproduct.
Excellent points. Sorry about the history that led to your bias btw.
I think a lot about his admission to Skyler about having done it for himself because of how great that moment was. I think that it’s most likely that it was always true, but he probably didn’t realize it until he had a lot of time to think back on it and reflect. I’ve certainly looked back at how shitty I was when I was younger and had the realization that I had been a selfish prick but thought I was a good person at the time.
When I said that he held himself accountable for his choices, I meant that if he were a selfish and indecent person, he might’ve backed out of the responsibilities he signed up for when things didn’t serve him. I think I remember that there was a flashback of seeing the house and that he didn’t think it was a good buy because of the price vs his salary but he relented for the sake of his family. He stuck around with Skyler despite being pretty clearly unhappy. He stuck to teaching despite having a great scientific mind that could’ve achieved much more. When they got pregnant again like 15 years after having their first child, I’m assuming that it wasn’t a planned pregnancy. Walter just kinda let life happen to him, and he took on more and more burden. He was committed to that family no matter how much they walked over him and expected their wants and needs to come before his own. Internalizing all of that expectation played a significant role in him snapping. He could’ve set clear barriers, gently or otherwise, or completely walked out, but instead he gave them everything until he realized he had already given nearly everything he would ever be capable of giving.
So, did he actually enter the meth business with the goal of giving them even more? It would align with his character before since that’s really all he’s ever done and maybe all he knows how to do. Or was he finally being selfish for once just before his death rattle that was coming any day now? It really doesn’t matter. For me, I think it’s possible that his admission to Skyler that he had been doing it for himself may have actually been one last lie, trying to atone for his sins that caused his family so much pain and damage; he may have been giving her what she wanted to hear to allow her to hate him and blame him; he may have been giving her the one, final thing he had left to give: his pride. It’s possible that he was falling on his sword for the foolish gamble he took; he may have thought that he was only gambling with his own life which was already forfeit anyway, but he instead gambled away the lives of the people he was working so hard to secure. Ironic.
Or maybe he was just a total piece of shit from birth. Idk, I’m not Vince Gilligan lol.