It’s a miracle we have wine at all, reverse engineering an entire operating system isn’t easy. Be grateful for what we have (which is already enough to run a ton of software really well)
reverse engineering an entire operating system isn’t easy
Have you noticed the the NT / Windows XP source code was leaked years ago. There’s isn’t much of a need to “reverse engineering”, it’s just about reading their implementation and providing an alternative implementation that doesn’t copy code…
Guess that rule was in place because some people would look at it and proceed to copy it. The rule should be “if you copy code from Microsoft you’ll be kicked from the project and the code removed”. While I see why this is place and what it protect the project from this is also a very big roadblock to the project’s evolution and a clear example of what’s wrong with it and why we still have compatibility issues.
Nope, because if you write code and they can prove you were influenced by leaked proprietary code in any way then they will sue the shit out of you and shut you down.
Also see Halt and Catch Fire for a show with this as a plot point. It’s very real though.
Didn’t companies have to set up ethics walls to protect against lawsuits for things like that?
What are you talking about? There’s copyright infringement that when you copy the leaked Windows source code into something like Wine or ReactOS and then there’s reading it to understand what Microsoft did and coming up with an alternative implementation that will provide a compatible API for programs to use. There’s no “gray zone” or ethical BS - it’s either copied or not.
See the bit about examples and IBM. While you could probably look, the easiest way to defend against a giant tech company’s legal team is to do the clean room setup
You can. Who can prove you read it? There’s copyright infringement that happens when you copy the leaked Windows source code into something like Wine or ReactOS and then there’s reading it to understand what Microsoft did and coming up with an alternative implementation that will provide a compatible API for programs to use. There’s no “gray zone” or ethical BS - it’s either copied or not.
I am not a lawyer but I’m pretty sure your wrong entirely. The court will take one look at the code and then at the MS code and they will see the similarities.
Under no circumstances can a developer of wine, proton or React os look at leaked code. That would be a major liability.
Under no circumstances can a developer of wine, proton or React os look at leaked code. That would be a major liability.
Why? As long as there’s no copied code there’s no copyright infringement. Nobody can ever prove you had a look at some leaked source code.
What you’re saying is mostly the reason why we still have compatibility issues in Wine.
Anyways, do you really think that Microsoft is so worried about ethics and hypothetical copyright infringements as you seem to be? if they were they wouldn’t be what they are today… maybe that’s Linux desktop isn’t still a viable option? :)
Instead of leaving snide comments like this, you can use your head to open up an IDE, implement the features you want, and make a pull request. Keep it to yourself
Well at least I’m not here perpetuating the delusion that desktop Linux desktop is as user-friendly and productive for every use-case as Windows and macOS are. If one lives in a bubble and doesn’t to collaborate with others then native Linux apps might work and might even deliver a decent workflow. Once collaboration with Windows/Mac users is required then it’s game over – the “alternatives” aren’t just up to it.
Windows licenses are cheap and things work out of the box. Software runs fine, all vendors support whatever you’re trying to do and you’re productive from day zero. Sure, there are annoyances from time to time, but they’re way fewer and simpler to deal with than the hoops you’ve to go through to get a minimal and viable/productive Linux desktop experience.
It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months?) you want to spend fixing things on Linux that simply work out of the box under Windows for a minimal fee. Buy a Windows license and spend the time you would’ve spent dealing with Linux issues doing your actual job and you’ll, most likely, get a better ROI.
Just buy a windows license next time.
Here’s the thing, I can get a legit Windows license by various means. I don’t need to go into microsoft.com and get it for 300$, a second hand windows machine with an old i5 CPU will sell for 50$ and that includes a valid Windows license. Computers selling on retail stores also include a Windows license, students can get them for free etc. what else?
Oh yes, I value and like Linux a LOT… just not for desktop as it doesn’t deliver as everyone says it does. To be fair I believe that only someone who values Linux as much as I do would be comfortable to criticize what’s wrong with it.
Well I can’t spend all my time trying to fix ridiculous issues that would’ve been fixed by now if people had the balls to look at Windows XP source code…
You’re doing something worse, complaining about something that no one really does. The average Linux user doesn’t want the average computer user to install Arch Linux. Stop spamming this garbage.
Well at least I’m not here perpetuating the delusion that desktop Linux desktop is as user-friendly and productive for every use-case as Windows and macOS are.
Wait, are you saying Windows and macOS are user-friendly and productive for every use-case? That’s hilarious!
It is called free because it allows you the freedom to hack the code and make it fit your needs, not because of cost. Like you say, freedome can be expensive, so go cheap and use authentic windows with a paid license, closed code binary blobs, and blind trust to the megacorp selling it.
Not without getting sued, no. But you could do a double blind on it. One person reads it and describes it in freeform prose, and another reads the prose then writes code to implement it as described. In the absence of documents describing the implementation details, this can sometimes work as it will avoid the copyright argument.
Still sketchy though, and you’d really have to verify isolation.
Still difficult in another sense. The person who was reading the code live on twitch or whatever, could never in the future work on wine. They’d have to commit to long term seperation from the project.
(Plus, they’d probably want to do it anonymously, since they’ve illegally obtained the source code.)
🎉🎉🎉
Yet another major release that fails do support basic Win32 APIs available since Windows 95 properly.
🎉🎉🎉
It’s a miracle we have wine at all, reverse engineering an entire operating system isn’t easy. Be grateful for what we have (which is already enough to run a ton of software really well)
Still ReactOS performs better in basic Win32 APIs… makes no sense.
Hasn’t ReactOS been accused of using code that was not reverse-engineered multiple times? If they became too big MS would probably just sue them.
From what I’ve heard they used some assembly code directly for very low level functions.
As if the Windows XP source code wasn’t leaked already…
That’s…not a legal excuse.
In fact that’;s an open and shut end to a project if you’re caught doing it.
As long as you don’t copy code…
It’s enough that you have read the code before implementing an alternative to get into legal trouble.
If you want some APIs implemented, make a feature request; you understand what you want
Unrelated but everytime you end a sentence with an ellipsis I imagine someone’s nerdy youtube rantsona with their arms crossed and a sly grin
Have you noticed the the NT / Windows XP source code was leaked years ago. There’s isn’t much of a need to “reverse engineering”, it’s just about reading their implementation and providing an alternative implementation that doesn’t copy code…
Paragraph «Don’t», bullet point number 3: Don’t look at any Microsoft source code. https://wiki.winehq.org/Clean_Room_Guidelines
Lol.
Imagine shooting yourselves in the foot like this.
Guess that rule was in place because some people would look at it and proceed to copy it. The rule should be “if you copy code from Microsoft you’ll be kicked from the project and the code removed”. While I see why this is place and what it protect the project from this is also a very big roadblock to the project’s evolution and a clear example of what’s wrong with it and why we still have compatibility issues.
That’s a lot of words to emphasize you don’t understand copyright law
Succinctly.
If only there were ways to subvert copyright law…
Nope, because if you write code and they can prove you were influenced by leaked proprietary code in any way then they will sue the shit out of you and shut you down.
Also see Halt and Catch Fire for a show with this as a plot point. It’s very real though.
Well, since it’s so easy, go do it.
That sounds difficult though. Didn’t companies have to set up ethics walls to protect against lawsuits for things like that?
What are you talking about? There’s copyright infringement that when you copy the leaked Windows source code into something like Wine or ReactOS and then there’s reading it to understand what Microsoft did and coming up with an alternative implementation that will provide a compatible API for programs to use. There’s no “gray zone” or ethical BS - it’s either copied or not.
Ah the term I was looking for was “clean room”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
See the bit about examples and IBM. While you could probably look, the easiest way to defend against a giant tech company’s legal team is to do the clean room setup
You can’t do that as its a copyrighted work.
You can. Who can prove you read it? There’s copyright infringement that happens when you copy the leaked Windows source code into something like Wine or ReactOS and then there’s reading it to understand what Microsoft did and coming up with an alternative implementation that will provide a compatible API for programs to use. There’s no “gray zone” or ethical BS - it’s either copied or not.
I am not a lawyer but I’m pretty sure your wrong entirely. The court will take one look at the code and then at the MS code and they will see the similarities.
Under no circumstances can a developer of wine, proton or React os look at leaked code. That would be a major liability.
Why? As long as there’s no copied code there’s no copyright infringement. Nobody can ever prove you had a look at some leaked source code.
What you’re saying is mostly the reason why we still have compatibility issues in Wine.
Anyways, do you really think that Microsoft is so worried about ethics and hypothetical copyright infringements as you seem to be? if they were they wouldn’t be what they are today… maybe that’s Linux desktop isn’t still a viable option? :)
Can I get a source?
Source of?
Instead of leaving snide comments like this, you can use your head to open up an IDE, implement the features you want, and make a pull request. Keep it to yourself
Oh no, how dare he have higher standards!
Sorry, I missed the part where you submitted an MR
Ask for a refund
Too bad time isn’t refundable. Free software is only free if you don’t factor in the time you spend making it work.
Wow, you’re the most entitled user of free software I’ve met in a while. Just buy a windows license next time.
Since when is having standards being ‘entitled’?
Just because something is free doesn’t mean it has to be janky.
Well at least I’m not here perpetuating the delusion that desktop Linux desktop is as user-friendly and productive for every use-case as Windows and macOS are. If one lives in a bubble and doesn’t to collaborate with others then native Linux apps might work and might even deliver a decent workflow. Once collaboration with Windows/Mac users is required then it’s game over – the “alternatives” aren’t just up to it.
Windows licenses are cheap and things work out of the box. Software runs fine, all vendors support whatever you’re trying to do and you’re productive from day zero. Sure, there are annoyances from time to time, but they’re way fewer and simpler to deal with than the hoops you’ve to go through to get a minimal and viable/productive Linux desktop experience.
It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months?) you want to spend fixing things on Linux that simply work out of the box under Windows for a minimal fee. Buy a Windows license and spend the time you would’ve spent dealing with Linux issues doing your actual job and you’ll, most likely, get a better ROI.
Here’s the thing, I can get a legit Windows license by various means. I don’t need to go into microsoft.com and get it for 300$, a second hand windows machine with an old i5 CPU will sell for 50$ and that includes a valid Windows license. Computers selling on retail stores also include a Windows license, students can get them for free etc. what else?
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@TCB13 @lemmy_user_838586 he really wanted to say that to someone
Oh yes, I value and like Linux a LOT… just not for desktop as it doesn’t deliver as everyone says it does. To be fair I believe that only someone who values Linux as much as I do would be comfortable to criticize what’s wrong with it.
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Well I can’t spend all my time trying to fix ridiculous issues that would’ve been fixed by now if people had the balls to look at Windows XP source code…
You’re doing something worse, complaining about something that no one really does. The average Linux user doesn’t want the average computer user to install Arch Linux. Stop spamming this garbage.
Wait, are you saying Windows and macOS are user-friendly and productive for every use-case? That’s hilarious!
Sir, this is a Linux community.
Oh no, and here I was thinking this was a Wendy’s.
I agree with the parent comment 100% but yours at least 110%
It is called free because it allows you the freedom to hack the code and make it fit your needs, not because of cost. Like you say, freedome can be expensive, so go cheap and use authentic windows with a paid license, closed code binary blobs, and blind trust to the megacorp selling it.
@TCB13 @troyunrau
Free software is about freedom, not price. To be free is not the same as free stuff.
So true.
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Well, it’s out there, but Wine devs can’t look at it.
Not without getting sued, no. But you could do a double blind on it. One person reads it and describes it in freeform prose, and another reads the prose then writes code to implement it as described. In the absence of documents describing the implementation details, this can sometimes work as it will avoid the copyright argument.
Still sketchy though, and you’d really have to verify isolation.
What if they live streamed the entire process, like on twitch?
Still difficult in another sense. The person who was reading the code live on twitch or whatever, could never in the future work on wine. They’d have to commit to long term seperation from the project.
(Plus, they’d probably want to do it anonymously, since they’ve illegally obtained the source code.)
Which one? Am curious since I worked with the winapi for a long time.
No one ever promised infinite compatibility forever. It’s most certainly NOT a microshit product.