I’m not making the claim. People here and such as the South Africa complaint are making the claim that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians that live in Israeli controlled territory. That doesn’t include the diaspora.
The claim is that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. I agree it shouldn’t include the diaspora, but I think the reason it shouldn’t include the West Bank is the same.
Also, worth noting from the definition of genocide:
genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group
Even if the claim was about Palestinians overall, the Palestinians in Gaza are “part” of Palestinians. There is no requirement that the entire group is involved.
I don’t think the claim is that it’s just committing genocide in Gaza. The claim is that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people because they are Palestinian.
It would be strange to ignore the much larger group of Palestinian people living within territory claimed by Israel in order to say that yes, israel is killing people solely for being Palestinian, but only in this specific little area, and not the other Palestinian people a little ways to the right.
In other words, if Israel is trying to kill people because they are Palestinian, why isn’t Israel bombing the West Bank with the save ferocity as it is Gaza City?
Well the answer is very obvious at least to me: Israel really is targeting the tunnels.
No. Genocide means killing all or a part of a population because of their genes. I agree.
The civilians in Gaza were told to leave and virtually all of the civilian deaths have occured in and around Gaza City where there is 800 tunnel shafts and hundreds of miles of tunnels from which a militant enemy that regularly kills women and children is operating.
The tunnels and members of Hamas are just and valid military targets. That is why Gaza City is being bombed. Not because of anything to do with the genome of the people living there.
If Israel wanted to eliminate Palestinians, it could carpet bomb all of Gaza and all of the West Bank and kill every soul there within a matter of hours. But instead the numbers of civilian casualties are decreasing every day.
The New York times just published an article today called The Decline of Deaths in Gaza.
It makes several salient points:
The daily death tolls out of Gaza have reduced by half and continue to fall as they have been for weeks;
Israel said two weeks ago that it was shifting strategy to a more targeted approach;
Hamas is still launching rocket barages on Israel from Gaza City, 25 rockets just last week;
Many Hamas fighters fled South to another massive tunnel network under the second most populated area of Gaza, Khan Younis.
Some civilian deaths are likely to continue for a while to come as long as Hamas is still hiding underneath people’s homes and using women and children as human shields.
If Israel has genocidal intentions, shouldn’t the killing apparatus be getting more efficient?
At the current rate, it would take 50 years before there are no more Palestinians. That doesn’t sound very genocidal to me; not with the numbers dropping off as they have. Clearly Israel has changed it’s strategy.
No. Genocide means killing all or a part of a population because of their genes. I agree.
Then you can see that it is not relevant whether the people in the West Bank are also being genocided. The genocide in Gaza is still a genocide. The intent does not have to be to kill every single Palestinian in existence.
But I don’t understand how you say this and then a couple or paragraphs later say this…
If Israel wanted to eliminate Palestinians, it could carpet bomb all of Gaza and all of the West Bank and kill every soul there within a matter of hours.
You see how you’ve shifted back to “killing all Palestinians” being the only valid focus of a claim of genocide? It could do that but that is not the only way it could be a genocide. God even Hitler didn’t kill all of the Jews as quickly as possible.
It seems like you’re assuming Israel are stupid. Think about it. Imagine you did want to kill the Palestinians, in the modern world. Would you just drop some nukes and call it a day? Would you start making gas chambers?
Of course not! You would look evil. So you would have to do it with some kind of political cover. October 7th provided just that type of cover. That’s why they aren’t bombing the West Bank like they are Gaza, because they don’t have that justification. It would look too much like the gas chamber approach.
I’m not expecting you to agree that this is what is happening, but you must see that this “kill them all now” type of genocide is not the only “true” genocide? This is not a valid metric.
And then if we keep the “let’s not assume stupidity” approach for this point you made:
The New York times just published an article today called The Decline of Deaths in Gaza.
I think we can see why if you were being tactical, when you are literally on trial for genocide it might be a good idea to cool off a bit. Sooo many people are pissed at Israel, the justification is wearing thin (at best). If you’re being smart about it, you wouldn’t just carry on the tactics that got you into this mess.
I see your points and mostly agree. I’m not trying to be obtuse. But to be falling off by half within four months? Also, why text people and tell them to evacuate? Wouldn’t that provide the same subterfuge? The IDF still texts people before they bomb if they know there are civilians around, look it up.
But more importantly, they aren’t bombing indiscriminately. In my understanding: they are bombing legit targets, the tunnels and members of Hamas, and Hamas uses human shields and sympathy from high civilian casualties (martyrdom) as a weapon. Aren’t they the superceding cause of the civilian casualties? I agree, 30,000 dead is horrendous. Hamas members are honored to cram their entire extended family into an apartment right above their nearest tunnel shaft and have them all die as martyrs while their phones buzz with unread emergency broadcasts.
1.2 million people evacuated safely, a massive forced evacuation. That fact alone makes it reasonably suspect. I get where the allegations are coming from. On balance, I find Israel’s response to be proportionate (destroying the enemy’s attack capability (the tunnels)), and evacuations are necessary to achieve that purpose.
This war is unique, the tunnels are unprecedented in all of human history. The willingness to use human shields is not entirely unprecedented, but the tunnels, hiding military infrastructure under hospitals and schools, under apartment complexes, under colleges, makes it unprecedented in its atrocity. October 7 was the last straw. Hamas has to go. The tunnels have to go and the city rebuilt from scratch.
I see your points and mostly agree. I’m not trying to be obtuse.
Ok great! I’m glad that you see that genocide doesn’t have to be so obvious/text book to count as a genocide.
I think I will end the conversation here but I will still respond to some points you made.
But to be falling off by half within four months?
Did you know that in the first month of the conflict Israel killed as many civilians as Russia had in the first 600 days of war? It’s easy to cut by half when it’s so high to start with. Half is still too much.
Also, why text people and tell them to evacuate? Wouldn’t that provide the same subterfuge?
Text them! Haven’t they cut off electricity and fuel to Gaza? What are they going to read it on it they can’t power their phone? In any case, this is the same as before: Israel is not stupid, they know it looks better politically if you give “warning” even if people could never see it and wouldn’t believe you anyway.
Hamas uses human shields
There is actually very little evidence of that. The tunnels are under all of Gaza, and Gaza is a tiny place nobody (apart from Hamas I guess?) can leave. Surely every building has a tunnel under or near it. So does that mean every building is fair game?
Imagine Al Shifa hospital actually did have the command centre under it. The tunnels can be over 10 m down or more. How many bombs do you have to drop on the hospital building and the actual solid concrete ground to reach 10 m down? Using that approach to get there is insane. Especially if it means killing the sick, injured, pregnant and god knows what inside the hospital. How can that be proportionate? Just send some elite soldiers into the tunnel.
Aren’t they the superceding cause of the civilian casualties?
I find it hard to blame anyone but the bomb droppers. If I held your mother in front of me as a shield would you really think it’s ok to kill her in order to kill me? What if it was two people’s mothers? Etc. Surely you see the issue here.
I agree, 30,000 dead is horrendous.
Well this is a good place to leave it. It is horrendous. I want it to stop before the number gets much higher, and especially before people start to starve to death. Israel defending this by saying “but Hamas…” doesn’t really cut it for me.
I’m not making the claim. People here and such as the South Africa complaint are making the claim that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians that live in Israeli controlled territory. That doesn’t include the diaspora.
The claim is that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. I agree it shouldn’t include the diaspora, but I think the reason it shouldn’t include the West Bank is the same.
Also, worth noting from the definition of genocide:
Even if the claim was about Palestinians overall, the Palestinians in Gaza are “part” of Palestinians. There is no requirement that the entire group is involved.
I don’t think the claim is that it’s just committing genocide in Gaza. The claim is that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people because they are Palestinian.
It would be strange to ignore the much larger group of Palestinian people living within territory claimed by Israel in order to say that yes, israel is killing people solely for being Palestinian, but only in this specific little area, and not the other Palestinian people a little ways to the right.
In other words, if Israel is trying to kill people because they are Palestinian, why isn’t Israel bombing the West Bank with the save ferocity as it is Gaza City?
Well the answer is very obvious at least to me: Israel really is targeting the tunnels.
Sorry did you just ignore my entire comment?
No. Genocide means killing all or a part of a population because of their genes. I agree.
The civilians in Gaza were told to leave and virtually all of the civilian deaths have occured in and around Gaza City where there is 800 tunnel shafts and hundreds of miles of tunnels from which a militant enemy that regularly kills women and children is operating.
The tunnels and members of Hamas are just and valid military targets. That is why Gaza City is being bombed. Not because of anything to do with the genome of the people living there.
If Israel wanted to eliminate Palestinians, it could carpet bomb all of Gaza and all of the West Bank and kill every soul there within a matter of hours. But instead the numbers of civilian casualties are decreasing every day.
The New York times just published an article today called The Decline of Deaths in Gaza.
It makes several salient points:
Some civilian deaths are likely to continue for a while to come as long as Hamas is still hiding underneath people’s homes and using women and children as human shields.
If Israel has genocidal intentions, shouldn’t the killing apparatus be getting more efficient?
At the current rate, it would take 50 years before there are no more Palestinians. That doesn’t sound very genocidal to me; not with the numbers dropping off as they have. Clearly Israel has changed it’s strategy.
Then you can see that it is not relevant whether the people in the West Bank are also being genocided. The genocide in Gaza is still a genocide. The intent does not have to be to kill every single Palestinian in existence.
But I don’t understand how you say this and then a couple or paragraphs later say this…
You see how you’ve shifted back to “killing all Palestinians” being the only valid focus of a claim of genocide? It could do that but that is not the only way it could be a genocide. God even Hitler didn’t kill all of the Jews as quickly as possible.
It seems like you’re assuming Israel are stupid. Think about it. Imagine you did want to kill the Palestinians, in the modern world. Would you just drop some nukes and call it a day? Would you start making gas chambers?
Of course not! You would look evil. So you would have to do it with some kind of political cover. October 7th provided just that type of cover. That’s why they aren’t bombing the West Bank like they are Gaza, because they don’t have that justification. It would look too much like the gas chamber approach.
I’m not expecting you to agree that this is what is happening, but you must see that this “kill them all now” type of genocide is not the only “true” genocide? This is not a valid metric.
And then if we keep the “let’s not assume stupidity” approach for this point you made:
I think we can see why if you were being tactical, when you are literally on trial for genocide it might be a good idea to cool off a bit. Sooo many people are pissed at Israel, the justification is wearing thin (at best). If you’re being smart about it, you wouldn’t just carry on the tactics that got you into this mess.
You wouldn’t just drop the nuke.
I see your points and mostly agree. I’m not trying to be obtuse. But to be falling off by half within four months? Also, why text people and tell them to evacuate? Wouldn’t that provide the same subterfuge? The IDF still texts people before they bomb if they know there are civilians around, look it up.
But more importantly, they aren’t bombing indiscriminately. In my understanding: they are bombing legit targets, the tunnels and members of Hamas, and Hamas uses human shields and sympathy from high civilian casualties (martyrdom) as a weapon. Aren’t they the superceding cause of the civilian casualties? I agree, 30,000 dead is horrendous. Hamas members are honored to cram their entire extended family into an apartment right above their nearest tunnel shaft and have them all die as martyrs while their phones buzz with unread emergency broadcasts.
1.2 million people evacuated safely, a massive forced evacuation. That fact alone makes it reasonably suspect. I get where the allegations are coming from. On balance, I find Israel’s response to be proportionate (destroying the enemy’s attack capability (the tunnels)), and evacuations are necessary to achieve that purpose.
This war is unique, the tunnels are unprecedented in all of human history. The willingness to use human shields is not entirely unprecedented, but the tunnels, hiding military infrastructure under hospitals and schools, under apartment complexes, under colleges, makes it unprecedented in its atrocity. October 7 was the last straw. Hamas has to go. The tunnels have to go and the city rebuilt from scratch.
Ok great! I’m glad that you see that genocide doesn’t have to be so obvious/text book to count as a genocide.
I think I will end the conversation here but I will still respond to some points you made.
Did you know that in the first month of the conflict Israel killed as many civilians as Russia had in the first 600 days of war? It’s easy to cut by half when it’s so high to start with. Half is still too much.
Text them! Haven’t they cut off electricity and fuel to Gaza? What are they going to read it on it they can’t power their phone? In any case, this is the same as before: Israel is not stupid, they know it looks better politically if you give “warning” even if people could never see it and wouldn’t believe you anyway.
There is actually very little evidence of that. The tunnels are under all of Gaza, and Gaza is a tiny place nobody (apart from Hamas I guess?) can leave. Surely every building has a tunnel under or near it. So does that mean every building is fair game?
Imagine Al Shifa hospital actually did have the command centre under it. The tunnels can be over 10 m down or more. How many bombs do you have to drop on the hospital building and the actual solid concrete ground to reach 10 m down? Using that approach to get there is insane. Especially if it means killing the sick, injured, pregnant and god knows what inside the hospital. How can that be proportionate? Just send some elite soldiers into the tunnel.
I find it hard to blame anyone but the bomb droppers. If I held your mother in front of me as a shield would you really think it’s ok to kill her in order to kill me? What if it was two people’s mothers? Etc. Surely you see the issue here.
Well this is a good place to leave it. It is horrendous. I want it to stop before the number gets much higher, and especially before people start to starve to death. Israel defending this by saying “but Hamas…” doesn’t really cut it for me.