the way to support the Palestinians (really) is to remove hamas and give them actual hopes for the future.
I’m all for getting rid of Hamas, but not by indiscriminately massacring civilians. Not only has the Israeli government themselves said that they kill twice as many civilians than Hamas, they actually consider that a GOOD ratio!
Israel left gaza in 2005
Not that old chestnut again 🙄 They still had complete control of its borders and as such were carrying on with the oppression.
they could have built a productive and peaceful country
No they fucking couldn’t! Not with the Israeli government controlling their borders, torturing and killing children for throwing rocks and leveling a city block every time a primitive rocket from the terrorists was stopped by the Iron Dome.
The only export they had was flying metal pipes and death to all those around them
Pretty difficult to export anything when you don’t have control of your own borders, dumbass.
And before your write “But mah blockade”, it wasn’t imposed before 2007.
Gaza has been effectively cut off from the world since long before that and you know it.
Are you a paid propagandist or are you just simping for a fascist apartheid regime and their genocidal campaign for free because you’re a heartless imbecile?
From short banter this has become a “discussion” (I seriously doubt where you get your info because at best it’s based on half-truths), so I’d like to answer seriously here. I need to go to sleep so I’ll try to keep at as concise as possible. I have no delusions that you might change your views here. However I’d like to give a few points for thought, as the internet as it’s built today is easily turned into an echo chamber, no matter our opinions. While it may take time for me to reply further, I’ll try to reply to anything you may have to say further down this discussion, and I come in good faith.
Starting from the end - no, I’m not a paid propagandist. Neither am I a simp for a “fascist apartheid regime”. However to have full disclosure - I have a stake in this, I’m an Israeli myself, and would consider myself quite knowledgeable about the geopolitics of the conflict, also going around, meeting people for all around the compass (from working with lots of arabs in Israel to going to talks around Hebron with anti-Israeli organizations just to get the full picture). While I was not a combat soldier myself so I don’t take an active part in the fighting right now, I have family and friends who do take part and have told me from first accounts on what happens there. Some also have been victims of the October 7th attacks (“fortunately”, no one close to me had died or been kidnapped, but friends of friends have been). So I do have a stake in this. Take it as you will.
For stealing aid - there are testimonies from Gazan citizens (aired live and cut abruptly on al-jazeera for not fitting the nerrative) that Hamas takes most of the aid entering Gaza. And there have been cases on camera where hamas people shot civilians who tried to go near the aid. Israel stealing it? It’s coming from Israel right now. In the beginning of the war Israel demanded it can’t come from Israel so it was transferred from Egypt, but later due to the Rafah crossing not being enough Israel began transporting aid directly, to the anger of lots of Israelis who know the hostages are basically deprived of both food and any medical treatment whatsoever.
For LGBT rights, I’ll take just one example but it’s basically regarded as a death sentence to be openly LGBT in Gaza. See here for example.
Murderers and rapists abundant in the IDF? Only case I can seriously think of is Elor Azaria, which while operationally stupid and criminally wrong (he was jailed for that), was not against uninvolved civilians, however wrong it was anyways. As for rapists - the IDF avoids rape so much that it has been accused of racism for “not raping Palestinian women”, you can’t make that shit up.
There is no indiscriminate bombing, with attacks cancelled if civilians are found nearby, with Israel going out of it’s way with knocking on roofs and yes, giving proper warnings for the population to move to safer spots. Are there no mishaps? Of course there are, this is war and it’s unavoidable. The forces on the ground actually take risks to try and not hurt civilians, but this is a very densely populated area and military infrastructure inside/near schools and mosques does not help.
Israel does not have complete control of the border, there is also a border with Egypt which is also closed, for the same reasons. They actually opened it while the Muslim Brotherhood was in power, but closed it later due to terrorism rising in the Sinai peninsula. Israel also allowed workers from Gaza to work in Israel, and goods to enter as long as they were not usable for military uses. There was still lots of smuggling apparent from there being lots of foreign made weaponry and ATGMs in Hamas possession.
Do note that Israel does not torture children for throwing rocks. At the worst case they’d be arrested, and lots of soldiers basically complain they are forbidden from doing anything to them, so they leave them be. Also while it’s reported as “rocks”, those are sometimes actual bricks and large rocks, which when thrown at moving cars can easily kill. In any way, those kids should stay in school and/or not engage in violent activity.
And Gaza is very much not really cut off from the world. They had imports which you wouldn’t believe, with some Gazans living in some luxury houses and car dealerships for luxury brands in Gaza. I’m not saying there are not poor people there (there are lots), but it’s not what it’s portrayed to be.
And I’ll return to my start of the comment (or your comment’s end). While Israel has lots of things to improve upon and yes, you can argue a lot about the validity of actions in the west bank - this is also an internal debate among Israelis. We have fair elections, a strong judicial system (if you’d look it up it blocked a lot of the current government’s initiatives) and some crazy freedom of speech. Minorities have equal rights by law (and then some affirmative action on top of that), while still not perfect it’s there. I’d refrain from using the word “fascist” when there are actual oppressive regimes in the world.
I wish you a good day and a real peace soon, with the release of all hostages. Good night.
That would be the Israeli occupation force
Yeah, I call bullshit on that one
Again, those are abundant in the IDF
I’m all for getting rid of Hamas, but not by indiscriminately massacring civilians. Not only has the Israeli government themselves said that they kill twice as many civilians than Hamas, they actually consider that a GOOD ratio!
Not that old chestnut again 🙄 They still had complete control of its borders and as such were carrying on with the oppression.
No they fucking couldn’t! Not with the Israeli government controlling their borders, torturing and killing children for throwing rocks and leveling a city block every time a primitive rocket from the terrorists was stopped by the Iron Dome.
Pretty difficult to export anything when you don’t have control of your own borders, dumbass.
Gaza has been effectively cut off from the world since long before that and you know it.
Are you a paid propagandist or are you just simping for a fascist apartheid regime and their genocidal campaign for free because you’re a heartless imbecile?
From short banter this has become a “discussion” (I seriously doubt where you get your info because at best it’s based on half-truths), so I’d like to answer seriously here. I need to go to sleep so I’ll try to keep at as concise as possible. I have no delusions that you might change your views here. However I’d like to give a few points for thought, as the internet as it’s built today is easily turned into an echo chamber, no matter our opinions. While it may take time for me to reply further, I’ll try to reply to anything you may have to say further down this discussion, and I come in good faith.
Starting from the end - no, I’m not a paid propagandist. Neither am I a simp for a “fascist apartheid regime”. However to have full disclosure - I have a stake in this, I’m an Israeli myself, and would consider myself quite knowledgeable about the geopolitics of the conflict, also going around, meeting people for all around the compass (from working with lots of arabs in Israel to going to talks around Hebron with anti-Israeli organizations just to get the full picture). While I was not a combat soldier myself so I don’t take an active part in the fighting right now, I have family and friends who do take part and have told me from first accounts on what happens there. Some also have been victims of the October 7th attacks (“fortunately”, no one close to me had died or been kidnapped, but friends of friends have been). So I do have a stake in this. Take it as you will.
For stealing aid - there are testimonies from Gazan citizens (aired live and cut abruptly on al-jazeera for not fitting the nerrative) that Hamas takes most of the aid entering Gaza. And there have been cases on camera where hamas people shot civilians who tried to go near the aid. Israel stealing it? It’s coming from Israel right now. In the beginning of the war Israel demanded it can’t come from Israel so it was transferred from Egypt, but later due to the Rafah crossing not being enough Israel began transporting aid directly, to the anger of lots of Israelis who know the hostages are basically deprived of both food and any medical treatment whatsoever.
For LGBT rights, I’ll take just one example but it’s basically regarded as a death sentence to be openly LGBT in Gaza. See here for example.
Murderers and rapists abundant in the IDF? Only case I can seriously think of is Elor Azaria, which while operationally stupid and criminally wrong (he was jailed for that), was not against uninvolved civilians, however wrong it was anyways. As for rapists - the IDF avoids rape so much that it has been accused of racism for “not raping Palestinian women”, you can’t make that shit up.
There is no indiscriminate bombing, with attacks cancelled if civilians are found nearby, with Israel going out of it’s way with knocking on roofs and yes, giving proper warnings for the population to move to safer spots. Are there no mishaps? Of course there are, this is war and it’s unavoidable. The forces on the ground actually take risks to try and not hurt civilians, but this is a very densely populated area and military infrastructure inside/near schools and mosques does not help.
Israel does not have complete control of the border, there is also a border with Egypt which is also closed, for the same reasons. They actually opened it while the Muslim Brotherhood was in power, but closed it later due to terrorism rising in the Sinai peninsula. Israel also allowed workers from Gaza to work in Israel, and goods to enter as long as they were not usable for military uses. There was still lots of smuggling apparent from there being lots of foreign made weaponry and ATGMs in Hamas possession.
Do note that Israel does not torture children for throwing rocks. At the worst case they’d be arrested, and lots of soldiers basically complain they are forbidden from doing anything to them, so they leave them be. Also while it’s reported as “rocks”, those are sometimes actual bricks and large rocks, which when thrown at moving cars can easily kill. In any way, those kids should stay in school and/or not engage in violent activity.
And Gaza is very much not really cut off from the world. They had imports which you wouldn’t believe, with some Gazans living in some luxury houses and car dealerships for luxury brands in Gaza. I’m not saying there are not poor people there (there are lots), but it’s not what it’s portrayed to be.
And I’ll return to my start of the comment (or your comment’s end). While Israel has lots of things to improve upon and yes, you can argue a lot about the validity of actions in the west bank - this is also an internal debate among Israelis. We have fair elections, a strong judicial system (if you’d look it up it blocked a lot of the current government’s initiatives) and some crazy freedom of speech. Minorities have equal rights by law (and then some affirmative action on top of that), while still not perfect it’s there. I’d refrain from using the word “fascist” when there are actual oppressive regimes in the world.
I wish you a good day and a real peace soon, with the release of all hostages. Good night.