Honestly, all we need to do is eliminate time zones. It wouldn’t solve all the problems with time systems, particularly for programmers, but it would go a long way to solving the practical problems humans face, as well as eliminating one of the biggest machine problems.
Just everyone switch to UTC. As I write this it is 10:51 UTC. Anyone in the world can convert that to their local purpose. In eastern Australia, 10:51 is mid evening. In the UK it’s late morning. In western United States it’s late at night. If we always used UTC, people would just be used to this pretty quick.
Eliminating time zones would make things worse. Right now you know that from 10am to 3pm local things will be opened with close to 100% certainty. Remove time zones and now you have to find out what are normal opening hours for the country where you’re trying to call.
Yeah removing them is not a good idea. But they do need a nice global time complement for anything that is international such as broadcasts on the internet. I hate converting time zones to figure out when an event or broadcast starts.
That would be listed in plain terms on a website no conversion needed. I really only deal with individuals though, so they list their hours on teams and only some of them follow business hours anyways.
Ok, it’s still more trouble than just remembering “France is +6 from where I am so I can call any business over there at 8am local no problem.”
The only proponents of getting rid of time zones are people who only think about how it fits their own situation while ignoring that in the vast majority of cases it makes things simpler to have time zones.
but regardless, imagine if you are meeting with 10 people all in different time zones. some in Arizona which doesn’t have DST. most don’t work 8-5 or whatever because thats old fashioned and sucks life from you. I’d rather know when you work on a single single clock. no confusion. it would take a couple months for everyone to adjust to their new clock and then everyone would be in sync.
yeah its a fantasy, but things are more connected every day. think of the boon for travelers and airlines.
Yeah I tend to agree, I schedule things with people across the world regularly and coordinating the time zones and business hours is a pain. If everyone used the same clock it would eliminate part of that issue.
Then a simple fix would be to not plan any meetings or calls for first or last thing in a day. Also, all work is expected due by first thing in the morning. So send that shit off as soon as you are done with it and its not a problem.
approximately 0 people think about it outside of programmers
It comes up all the time. Any time people are scheduling something between different time zones and run into trouble figuring out “is that your time or my time?” That’s an issue that would be resolved by not having time zones.
My point is you use UTC to plan international meetings but keep timezones for day to day stuff. Better yet with computers meeting planning software takes timezones into account.
When I do a when2meet with my colleagues everyone fills it in their local time and it’s fine, and then the calendar event is timezone aware as well so it’s completely a non issue.
If all your system cares about is recording incoming events at a discrete time, then sure: UTC for persistence and localization for display solves all your problems.
But if you have any concept of user-defined time ranges or periodic scheduling, you get in the weeds real quick.
There is a difference between saying “this time tomorrow” vs. “24 hours from now”, because of DST, leap years, and leap seconds.
Time zones (and who observes them) change over time. As does DST.
If you allow monthly scheduling, you have to account for some days not being valid for some months and that this changes on a leap year.
If you allow daily scheduling, you need to be aware that some hours of the day may not exist on certain days or may exist twice.
If you poll a client device and do any datetime comparisons, you need to decide whether you care about elapsed time or calendar time.
I worked on some code that was deployed to aircraft carriers in the Pacific. “This event already happened tomorrow” is completely possible when you cross the international date line.
Add to all of this the fact that there are different calendars across the world, even if the change is as small as a different “first day of the week”.
Honestly, all we need to do is eliminate time zones. It wouldn’t solve all the problems with time systems, particularly for programmers, but it would go a long way to solving the practical problems humans face, as well as eliminating one of the biggest machine problems.
Just everyone switch to UTC. As I write this it is 10:51 UTC. Anyone in the world can convert that to their local purpose. In eastern Australia, 10:51 is mid evening. In the UK it’s late morning. In western United States it’s late at night. If we always used UTC, people would just be used to this pretty quick.
It’ll never happen because approximately 0 people think about it outside of programmers.
Anyone who works with people in different time zones. Which is a lot more of us as we go remote.
Eliminating time zones would make things worse. Right now you know that from 10am to 3pm local things will be opened with close to 100% certainty. Remove time zones and now you have to find out what are normal opening hours for the country where you’re trying to call.
Yeah removing them is not a good idea. But they do need a nice global time complement for anything that is international such as broadcasts on the internet. I hate converting time zones to figure out when an event or broadcast starts.
That would be listed in plain terms on a website no conversion needed. I really only deal with individuals though, so they list their hours on teams and only some of them follow business hours anyways.
Ok, it’s still more trouble than just remembering “France is +6 from where I am so I can call any business over there at 8am local no problem.”
The only proponents of getting rid of time zones are people who only think about how it fits their own situation while ignoring that in the vast majority of cases it makes things simpler to have time zones.
8am is too early for anything….
but regardless, imagine if you are meeting with 10 people all in different time zones. some in Arizona which doesn’t have DST. most don’t work 8-5 or whatever because thats old fashioned and sucks life from you. I’d rather know when you work on a single single clock. no confusion. it would take a couple months for everyone to adjust to their new clock and then everyone would be in sync. yeah its a fantasy, but things are more connected every day. think of the boon for travelers and airlines.
Yeah I tend to agree, I schedule things with people across the world regularly and coordinating the time zones and business hours is a pain. If everyone used the same clock it would eliminate part of that issue.
I meant 8am my time so +6 that’s 2pm theirs.
I think that it’s harder to all be in the same time zone. You then have to remember each zone’s working hours instead of the offset from your time.
I don’t see how it’s easier to get rid of time zones.
Yeah, when someone now says I get up at 05:00, we all know that’s early.
Getting rid of time zones would remove a lot of context to conversations.
If someone is getting up at 16:00, the others in the conversation would have no idea if that’s late or early, same goes for working hours.
Then a simple fix would be to not plan any meetings or calls for first or last thing in a day. Also, all work is expected due by first thing in the morning. So send that shit off as soon as you are done with it and its not a problem.
The Navy and Air-Force use of Zulu time would disagree with this statement.
It comes up all the time. Any time people are scheduling something between different time zones and run into trouble figuring out “is that your time or my time?” That’s an issue that would be resolved by not having time zones.
Just use UTC then.
Yes, that’s the idea.
My point is you use UTC to plan international meetings but keep timezones for day to day stuff. Better yet with computers meeting planning software takes timezones into account.
When I do a when2meet with my colleagues everyone fills it in their local time and it’s fine, and then the calendar event is timezone aware as well so it’s completely a non issue.
It being Zulu/UTC not it being time
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Maybe programmers should learn to do their job correctly instead of asking the whole planet to fix their simple problem for themselves.
The biggest machine problem ? That must be a joke!
It really isn’t that simple.
If all your system cares about is recording incoming events at a discrete time, then sure: UTC for persistence and localization for display solves all your problems.
But if you have any concept of user-defined time ranges or periodic scheduling, you get in the weeds real quick.
There is a difference between saying “this time tomorrow” vs. “24 hours from now”, because of DST, leap years, and leap seconds.
Time zones (and who observes them) change over time. As does DST.
If you allow monthly scheduling, you have to account for some days not being valid for some months and that this changes on a leap year.
If you allow daily scheduling, you need to be aware that some hours of the day may not exist on certain days or may exist twice.
If you poll a client device and do any datetime comparisons, you need to decide whether you care about elapsed time or calendar time.
I worked on some code that was deployed to aircraft carriers in the Pacific. “This event already happened tomorrow” is completely possible when you cross the international date line.
Add to all of this the fact that there are different calendars across the world, even if the change is as small as a different “first day of the week”.
Man I wish this was be the biggest problems I had to work on.
All I read here is lazyness.