I like the feminist model. But there’s absolutely nothing for men within it.
You seem to not be very familiar with feminism. Most obvious one is that feminism wants to give man and women a choice when it comes to their role in society. Like most liberal “leftist” movement it’s about empowering the individual to be able to live a life that makes them happy by overcoming societal structures.
I don’t know where you live to have such a narrow definition of it. And it certainly is true for some feminist groups. But feminism is a diverse movement. And some of them are definitely not open to men.
When you can read that the heterosexual couple must end because it’s based on domination and it enforces patriarchy, at best it’s a poor choice of words.
I don’t know where you live to have such a narrow definition of it.
I didn’t give you a definition of feminism to beginn with, so not sure what you are talking about. I gave you an example of an aspect of feminism that clearly benefits men.
And some of them are definitely not open to men.
Sure, and some feminist believe that all piv sex is rape and than some others that trans-women are not women. Like you said, feminism is diverse and there are fringe opinions and genuine crazy people. But don’t you think it’s rather biased to define the whole movement by the most fringe elements of it?
When you can read that the heterosexual couple must end because it’s based on domination and it enforces patriarchy, a
Do you think that is a popular opinion with people considering themselves feminist or do you think it’s rather radical extreme position hold by a few and refuted by the majority?
I don’t know the sociology of the people who consider themselves feminists. I read and talk quite some with people, women in fact, who are activists. A published article that defend or promote feminist is activist by definition.
I’ve never seen a moderate feminist article. Would you have one that I can read?
Notice that I didn’t say every feminist was extremist. Some are obviously more moderate than others. But by its nature, feminism is radical. The problem is that men are generally considered allies at best. They’re not included. They’re often excluded.
If some feminists include men, I’ll very gladly learn about them, because I’ve never have before. And I consider myself informed.
If some feminists include men, I’ll very gladly learn about them, because I’ve never have before. And I consider myself informed.
You are not. There is a long tradition of feminist thought that makes very clear that feminism is inclusive of men. What’s more, feminism very explicitly advocates for the betterment of men in the form of freeing them from oppressive gender roles. I suggest you check out works like Feminism Is for Everybody by bell hooks for an introduction into this pillar of feminism.
I’m curious where you live, since your experience is rather wildly different then mine.
What is a moderate feminism for you? Need to know before I go searching.
Also I’m curious what being included means for you - is considering men allies including them? What would satisfy for you the criteria of men being included?
These are the wrong questions. The question is how do men and women love each other after metoo? That is the question Andrew tate and the fascists are answering, in a reactionary way.
And Barby (the movie) is a good example of the feminist stance on this: feminists are basically saying “I don’t want to be your doll, fuck off, dont try to love me”. And while the first part is perfectly reasonable and sound, the second part is missing the point. And I realise here that it’s not just me that are abandoned but also women here.
The feminist stance is understandable I guess: they don’t want men to tell them what to be, so they won’t tell men what to be either. But that’s missing the point, the question that’s being asked: how do men and women love eachother after metoo?
People want models, both to understand what to aim for, and to have something to dream about. There are strong women models now all over movies and games. But men are still the old one, and there’s nothing but the old philosophy to answer the question of how do men and women love eachother after metoo. Because feminists abandoned this question.
And it cannot be either men or women to answer it. It must be discussed and agreed. Because women must like what men will be, and men must accept what women want. There is as much work to do on women than there is on men.
Final point: the answer cannot be a negative one. It cannot be “don’t be a dick”. Because after metoo most reasonable men understand that. The question is, if we’re not to be dicks, what will we be? And I’m talking about seduction and romantic relationships here. The question the far right is answering. The question that matter when it comes to men and women relationships. Because no one cares if you want to be an astronaut or a fireman.
It’s very concerning that you don’t understand that you’ve just made an overall feminist argument.
Because feminists abandoned this question.
This is most certainly not true.
Because after metoo most reasonable men understand that. The question is, if we’re not to be dicks, what will we be? And I’m talking about seduction and romantic relationships here. The question the far right is answering.
The far right is answering with “let’s just be dicks”?
The question is how do men and women love each other after metoo?
Sure we can switch the topic.
fuck off, dont try to love me”.
What the hell are you talking about? That has nothing to do with feminism and I struggle to understand how you arrived at the conclusion that after metoo women don’t want to be loved anymore. Women don’t want to be raped, harassed and then dismissed when they try to get help. That was the point of metoo.
how do men and women love eachother after metoo?
Respecting each other, here I gave you the answer.
But men are still the old one,
There are tons of positive role models for men out there that fit feminist bills. From Argagorn in LOTR to Aang in Avatar, if you are interested I can keep on going.
nd there’s nothing but the old philosophy to answer the question of how do men and women love eachother after metoo.
Yeah, because as I said metoo was about not being raped, harrassed and not dismissed - some rather basic things for a relationship. What answers do you exactly need?
And it cannot be either men or women to answer it. It must be discussed and agreed. Because women must like what men will be, and men must accept what women want.
But that is an individual question. There is no answer for everyone besides - respect others and their boundaries and then anything goes. There is no one archetype of men that all women find attractive and never was.
Final point: the answer cannot be a negative one. It cannot be “don’t be a dick”. Because after metoo most reasonable men understand that. The question is, if we’re not to be dicks, what will we be? And I’m talking about seduction and romantic relationships here.
You just misunderstood the answer. Again it’s not about not being a dick, no one cares. It’s about not raping, harassing and than dismissing women. And the answer the left is giving: consent. Make sure the other side is into what ever is going on and than you are free to do what ever you two want.
Sure, if pushback and arguments is not understanding and not caring in your book. You could also try to explain your opinion, if you believe I misunderstood you. That’s up to you buddy.
guess you’re left blaming men and social networks for turning young men mysoginistic fascists.
That is not my opinion at all. Except that social media is defenetly playing a role in spreading populist idea. But there is also an underlying reason for those ideas to become popular in the first place.
You seem to not be very familiar with feminism. Most obvious one is that feminism wants to give man and women a choice when it comes to their role in society. Like most liberal “leftist” movement it’s about empowering the individual to be able to live a life that makes them happy by overcoming societal structures.
I don’t know where you live to have such a narrow definition of it. And it certainly is true for some feminist groups. But feminism is a diverse movement. And some of them are definitely not open to men.
When you can read that the heterosexual couple must end because it’s based on domination and it enforces patriarchy, at best it’s a poor choice of words.
I didn’t give you a definition of feminism to beginn with, so not sure what you are talking about. I gave you an example of an aspect of feminism that clearly benefits men.
Sure, and some feminist believe that all piv sex is rape and than some others that trans-women are not women. Like you said, feminism is diverse and there are fringe opinions and genuine crazy people. But don’t you think it’s rather biased to define the whole movement by the most fringe elements of it?
Do you think that is a popular opinion with people considering themselves feminist or do you think it’s rather radical extreme position hold by a few and refuted by the majority?
I don’t know the sociology of the people who consider themselves feminists. I read and talk quite some with people, women in fact, who are activists. A published article that defend or promote feminist is activist by definition.
I’ve never seen a moderate feminist article. Would you have one that I can read?
Notice that I didn’t say every feminist was extremist. Some are obviously more moderate than others. But by its nature, feminism is radical. The problem is that men are generally considered allies at best. They’re not included. They’re often excluded.
If some feminists include men, I’ll very gladly learn about them, because I’ve never have before. And I consider myself informed.
You are not. There is a long tradition of feminist thought that makes very clear that feminism is inclusive of men. What’s more, feminism very explicitly advocates for the betterment of men in the form of freeing them from oppressive gender roles. I suggest you check out works like Feminism Is for Everybody by bell hooks for an introduction into this pillar of feminism.
I’m curious where you live, since your experience is rather wildly different then mine.
What is a moderate feminism for you? Need to know before I go searching.
Also I’m curious what being included means for you - is considering men allies including them? What would satisfy for you the criteria of men being included?
These are the wrong questions. The question is how do men and women love each other after metoo? That is the question Andrew tate and the fascists are answering, in a reactionary way.
And Barby (the movie) is a good example of the feminist stance on this: feminists are basically saying “I don’t want to be your doll, fuck off, dont try to love me”. And while the first part is perfectly reasonable and sound, the second part is missing the point. And I realise here that it’s not just me that are abandoned but also women here.
The feminist stance is understandable I guess: they don’t want men to tell them what to be, so they won’t tell men what to be either. But that’s missing the point, the question that’s being asked: how do men and women love eachother after metoo?
People want models, both to understand what to aim for, and to have something to dream about. There are strong women models now all over movies and games. But men are still the old one, and there’s nothing but the old philosophy to answer the question of how do men and women love eachother after metoo. Because feminists abandoned this question.
And it cannot be either men or women to answer it. It must be discussed and agreed. Because women must like what men will be, and men must accept what women want. There is as much work to do on women than there is on men.
Final point: the answer cannot be a negative one. It cannot be “don’t be a dick”. Because after metoo most reasonable men understand that. The question is, if we’re not to be dicks, what will we be? And I’m talking about seduction and romantic relationships here. The question the far right is answering. The question that matter when it comes to men and women relationships. Because no one cares if you want to be an astronaut or a fireman.
It’s very concerning that you don’t understand that you’ve just made an overall feminist argument.
This is most certainly not true.
The far right is answering with “let’s just be dicks”?
Is this a rethorical question?
Sure we can switch the topic.
What the hell are you talking about? That has nothing to do with feminism and I struggle to understand how you arrived at the conclusion that after metoo women don’t want to be loved anymore. Women don’t want to be raped, harassed and then dismissed when they try to get help. That was the point of metoo.
Respecting each other, here I gave you the answer.
There are tons of positive role models for men out there that fit feminist bills. From Argagorn in LOTR to Aang in Avatar, if you are interested I can keep on going.
Yeah, because as I said metoo was about not being raped, harrassed and not dismissed - some rather basic things for a relationship. What answers do you exactly need?
But that is an individual question. There is no answer for everyone besides - respect others and their boundaries and then anything goes. There is no one archetype of men that all women find attractive and never was.
You just misunderstood the answer. Again it’s not about not being a dick, no one cares. It’s about not raping, harassing and than dismissing women. And the answer the left is giving: consent. Make sure the other side is into what ever is going on and than you are free to do what ever you two want.
So we’re back at square one: you don’t understand, and either you don’t care or you don’t see the problem.
I guess you’re left blaming men and social networks for turning young men mysoginistic fascists.
Sure, if pushback and arguments is not understanding and not caring in your book. You could also try to explain your opinion, if you believe I misunderstood you. That’s up to you buddy.
That is not my opinion at all. Except that social media is defenetly playing a role in spreading populist idea. But there is also an underlying reason for those ideas to become popular in the first place.
Ok, stay blind if you will. There’s no problem. We will never know why men are turning fascist and mysogyne I guess.
You want to shine a light and help me out of blindness by pointing out where you disagree?
I disagree when you say that people should help themselves.
Where do I say that?