Where are these defeatist democrats I keep hearing about? I’ve never actually met one. I’ve never had a conversation, even a casual one, where someone on the left is like, “Well, at least I can still afford my bag of rice…” But every fucking political meme I see has these shitbrain democrats that are just puttering around with no purpose like some limp dick avatar of social justice. Stop making up positions and then applying incorrect labels to them, you aren’t helping anyone.
Considering it’s being contrasted to anarchism, the comparison of ‘Life could be worse’ with ‘Life can be better’ is accurate. Democrats are generally liberals who want to refine the system, not tear it down and build a better one. “Representative market capitalist social democracy is the best and most stable we’ve found, so let’s not fuck it unnecessarily.” Whereas anarchists are generally in favor of tearing down current extant institutions to be replaced with other systems of economic and social organization. “The current system is cruel and you cannot refine it. It has to go for life to meaningfully improve.”
And, of course, Republicans seeking to tear everything down and build an intentionally worse system in its place.
I’m always interested in the comparison with programmers who want to start from scratch to make it better, only to make it just as bad as before, but after spending a lot of efforts.
It’s always an interesting question to explore. I have some anarchist sympathies, though I wouldn’t count myself in their ranks. I definitely get their criticisms of the current structures of society, and anarchism isn’t nonviable. But at the same time, I don’t know that it’s the way forward.
All I know is that capitalism has outstayed its welcome.
But at the same time, I don’t know that it’s the way forward.
As an anarchist, amusingly I fully agree with this statement. I don’t even think that a society in line with my ideals is currently possible (humanity needs to socially evolve) but more of a guiding light to aspire to and try to affect lasting change around me that can align with it after I’m gone.
All I know is that capitalism has outstayed its welcome.
One of the darkly humorous things that I find with the current state of things is that capitalism is a system that punishes stagnation but, those in power are desperate to maintain stagnation in the economic system or even regress towards earlier incarnations while preventing the system from evolving in any way that could better serve humanity. Those at the reins are, ironically, opposed to foundational parts of their own ideologizes economic system.
I think pure anarchism relies too much on people being good and working things out. Historically that just doesn’t pan out. So there does need to be some greater structure for organizing things, but I have no idea what it would look like.
Syndicalism offers some ideas for organizing into loose groups and interrelations between those syndicates but I haven’t dug deeply into the mechanics of it. I think ultimately humanity has to organize into groups of about 1000 individuals, related by common interests and mutual aid, with some grander scheme for global distribution of reaources. Soviets? Universal suffrage and democracy? Republicanism? Maybe each syndicate chooses for itself and somehow global anarchy between them “just works” (but I doubt it)?
Anyway, a fun problem to debate and armchair strategize about, since presumably none of us have the money and power to overthrow the current world order.
A predominantly investor-directed market economy predicated on private ownership of the means of production. Is that specific enough for you to permit me to use the term ‘capitalism’?
You don’t need my permission nor my approval; my agreeance even less so.
If I’m mistaking you, and you actually are attempting to engage me here, please forgive me my brusqueness— I’ve seen enough of people snapping back and forth at each other these days and am, no doubt, the nastier for it. It was not my intention in my previous comment for it to be a personal sleight against you, nor to have you stand a strawman for an ideology.
If that’s your takeaway, then you need to listen to more leftists and rightists. Rightists fundamentally have no fucking clue what Communism means, that’s where the whole “read theory” meme comes from. Leftists do understand Capitalism, and make genuine analytical claims against it.
It’s a shibboleth for either side, where the expression of distaste or hatred for the concept, or the quick association of evils with it marks you a member of the tribe.
Some Leftists understand Capitalism. Some Rightists understand Communism. Larger swaths than they wield the words about.
Nah, that’s just Enlightened Centrism nonsense. We are born into Capitalism, not Socialism nor Communism. I’m correct, leftists must first understand Capitalism to criticize it, while rightists just have to defend the status quo.
You can watch this in the real world, if you ask a right winger about Socialist concepts without calling them Socialist, most agree until you call them Socialist.
I thought anarchists wanted no system at all. Without being anar, the current system has to be replaced with a better one, because we’re on track to our demise wirh climate change and limited resources to fix the problems (limited copper, which needs clear water, or sand. Check out limits to growth). We’ll see the consequences in a few years…
Sorry I could have been nicer about it. Anarchists advocates for societies that are highly structured in many ways. For example federalism, direct democracy, voluntary association. Anarchist groups and societies (like Makhnovshchina, Spain during the civil war etc.) model themselves after these principles. Here is some more info about it.
No that’s a different ideology. Not sure what it’s called.
True anar is no system at all period. Everything that happens happens and there’s no rhyme or reason for it. A bit like the ass backwards Murphy’s law people talk about. Like war without rules kind of.
What you are talking about is a collective source of responsibility that is shared amongst a community. You decide where your taxes go and what it funds, how it affects your life, and what the ruling body does with it.
I have no answers but I feel like that is a proper explanation.
That’s not what the ideology is about. That’s actually not even possible, since in a structureless society, some system of hierarchies would emerge. This is called the “hierarchy of structurelessness” and what anarchists actually work against.
What you are talking about is a collective source of responsibility that is shared amongst a community. You decide where your taxes go and what it funds, how it affects your life, and what the ruling body does with it.
In anarchist ideology, there is no “ruling body”. Or rather: The ruling body is the people.
If you say that this is from the Anarchist’s perspective, then it is disingenuous or completely blind to reality, and I’m not sure which is worse. Truth and perspective aren’t mutually exclusive. Painting democrats as they have been in the comic isn’t an accurate depiction, and instead of trying to find an ally it seeks to further divide and aggravate. I say the same thing to Anarchists that I do to Libertarians. If your ideas are so great, why doesn’t everyone follow them? A political party shouldn’t need a hard sell, because that means that there can be no compromise, and like it or not, without compromise, you’ll die on the vine.
The everyday media consumer can see it a bit on American pundit shows, especially ones like Morning Joe Scarborough and variously on things like the Cspan callin shows.
I.e. you got to seek it out and willfully steep youself in poltical punditry.
That said, if you ever find yourself working on the political campaign of a progressive challenger to a conservative Democrat, you’ll get it directly. But I have never seen the defeatism assocated with anything leftist, always more as the criticism of Democratic party conservatism.
Where are these defeatist democrats I keep hearing about? I’ve never actually met one. I’ve never had a conversation, even a casual one, where someone on the left is like, “Well, at least I can still afford my bag of rice…” But every fucking political meme I see has these shitbrain democrats that are just puttering around with no purpose like some limp dick avatar of social justice. Stop making up positions and then applying incorrect labels to them, you aren’t helping anyone.
Considering it’s being contrasted to anarchism, the comparison of ‘Life could be worse’ with ‘Life can be better’ is accurate. Democrats are generally liberals who want to refine the system, not tear it down and build a better one. “Representative market capitalist social democracy is the best and most stable we’ve found, so let’s not fuck it unnecessarily.” Whereas anarchists are generally in favor of tearing down current extant institutions to be replaced with other systems of economic and social organization. “The current system is cruel and you cannot refine it. It has to go for life to meaningfully improve.”
And, of course, Republicans seeking to tear everything down and build an intentionally worse system in its place.
I’m always interested in the comparison with programmers who want to start from scratch to make it better, only to make it just as bad as before, but after spending a lot of efforts.
It’s always an interesting question to explore. I have some anarchist sympathies, though I wouldn’t count myself in their ranks. I definitely get their criticisms of the current structures of society, and anarchism isn’t nonviable. But at the same time, I don’t know that it’s the way forward.
All I know is that capitalism has outstayed its welcome.
As an anarchist, amusingly I fully agree with this statement. I don’t even think that a society in line with my ideals is currently possible (humanity needs to socially evolve) but more of a guiding light to aspire to and try to affect lasting change around me that can align with it after I’m gone.
One of the darkly humorous things that I find with the current state of things is that capitalism is a system that punishes stagnation but, those in power are desperate to maintain stagnation in the economic system or even regress towards earlier incarnations while preventing the system from evolving in any way that could better serve humanity. Those at the reins are, ironically, opposed to foundational parts of their own ideologizes economic system.
I think pure anarchism relies too much on people being good and working things out. Historically that just doesn’t pan out. So there does need to be some greater structure for organizing things, but I have no idea what it would look like.
Syndicalism offers some ideas for organizing into loose groups and interrelations between those syndicates but I haven’t dug deeply into the mechanics of it. I think ultimately humanity has to organize into groups of about 1000 individuals, related by common interests and mutual aid, with some grander scheme for global distribution of reaources. Soviets? Universal suffrage and democracy? Republicanism? Maybe each syndicate chooses for itself and somehow global anarchy between them “just works” (but I doubt it)?
Anyway, a fun problem to debate and armchair strategize about, since presumably none of us have the money and power to overthrow the current world order.
It’s starting to feel like “capitalism” is for the left what “communism” is for the right.
A predominantly investor-directed market economy predicated on private ownership of the means of production. Is that specific enough for you to permit me to use the term ‘capitalism’?
You don’t need my permission nor my approval; my agreeance even less so.
If I’m mistaking you, and you actually are attempting to engage me here, please forgive me my brusqueness— I’ve seen enough of people snapping back and forth at each other these days and am, no doubt, the nastier for it. It was not my intention in my previous comment for it to be a personal sleight against you, nor to have you stand a strawman for an ideology.
If that’s your takeaway, then you need to listen to more leftists and rightists. Rightists fundamentally have no fucking clue what Communism means, that’s where the whole “read theory” meme comes from. Leftists do understand Capitalism, and make genuine analytical claims against it.
It’s a shibboleth for either side, where the expression of distaste or hatred for the concept, or the quick association of evils with it marks you a member of the tribe.
Some Leftists understand Capitalism. Some Rightists understand Communism. Larger swaths than they wield the words about.
Nah, that’s just Enlightened Centrism nonsense. We are born into Capitalism, not Socialism nor Communism. I’m correct, leftists must first understand Capitalism to criticize it, while rightists just have to defend the status quo.
You can watch this in the real world, if you ask a right winger about Socialist concepts without calling them Socialist, most agree until you call them Socialist.
You speak the memes like a native, and bravely declare yourself to be right. Thanks for the attempt at engaging— have a nice day.
I thought anarchists wanted no system at all. Without being anar, the current system has to be replaced with a better one, because we’re on track to our demise wirh climate change and limited resources to fix the problems (limited copper, which needs clear water, or sand. Check out limits to growth). We’ll see the consequences in a few years…
edit: onkyo is right.
Tell me you know nothing about anarchism without telling me you know nothing about anarchism
please enlighten me 🙂
edit: quick read on wikipedia, yeah I know nothing, thanks for the heads up 🙂
Sorry I could have been nicer about it. Anarchists advocates for societies that are highly structured in many ways. For example federalism, direct democracy, voluntary association. Anarchist groups and societies (like Makhnovshchina, Spain during the civil war etc.) model themselves after these principles. Here is some more info about it.
thanks 😉
Isn’t anarchy all about there being no government and everybody just cooperates?
Think of it more like a series of local councils and trade unions where everyone votes and has an equal voice.
No that’s a different ideology. Not sure what it’s called.
True anar is no system at all period. Everything that happens happens and there’s no rhyme or reason for it. A bit like the ass backwards Murphy’s law people talk about. Like war without rules kind of.
What you are talking about is a collective source of responsibility that is shared amongst a community. You decide where your taxes go and what it funds, how it affects your life, and what the ruling body does with it.
I have no answers but I feel like that is a proper explanation.
That’s not what the ideology is about. That’s actually not even possible, since in a structureless society, some system of hierarchies would emerge. This is called the “hierarchy of structurelessness” and what anarchists actually work against.
In anarchist ideology, there is no “ruling body”. Or rather: The ruling body is the people.
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Anarchism is a complex web of horizontal structures, not abolition of structure.
If you say that this is from the Anarchist’s perspective, then it is disingenuous or completely blind to reality, and I’m not sure which is worse. Truth and perspective aren’t mutually exclusive. Painting democrats as they have been in the comic isn’t an accurate depiction, and instead of trying to find an ally it seeks to further divide and aggravate. I say the same thing to Anarchists that I do to Libertarians. If your ideas are so great, why doesn’t everyone follow them? A political party shouldn’t need a hard sell, because that means that there can be no compromise, and like it or not, without compromise, you’ll die on the vine.
The everyday media consumer can see it a bit on American pundit shows, especially ones like Morning Joe Scarborough and variously on things like the Cspan callin shows.
I.e. you got to seek it out and willfully steep youself in poltical punditry.
That said, if you ever find yourself working on the political campaign of a progressive challenger to a conservative Democrat, you’ll get it directly. But I have never seen the defeatism assocated with anything leftist, always more as the criticism of Democratic party conservatism.
Eastwood talking to the empty chair.