I seriously cannot have any degree of nuanced conversation here.
Like I get it, we all know capitalism is bad, but it feels like every time I or anyone go towards discussing the steps that need to be taken to address current looming problems in the short term, someone has to jump in and shut it down with "capitalism bad >:[ " and tear down any idea presented because its not complete and total destruction of the current economic model.
The result just feels like an echo chamber where no actual solutions get presented other than someone posting whole ass dissertations on their 33-step (where 30/33 steps are about as vague as “we’ll just handle it”) plan to fully convert the world to an anarchist commune.
Edit: I still vastly prefer Lemmy and the fediverse and a whole, my complaint here is that many of you are TOO INTENSE. You blow up small scale discussion.
But religious people aren’t always bad and that seems to get lost on here.
It’s hard to trust religious people. I grew up a fundie christian and nearly every Christian I’ve ever known has hurt me with their faith. Trusting religious people feels like repeating a trust fall with people who routinely decide not to catch you. And then people get mad at me for not wanting to engage anymore.
Are all religious people bad? Of course not. Has my experience been one that has constantly affirmed that religious people, namely christians, cand be trusted? Absolutely. So what am I supposed to do in this case?
I think your problem is with fundamentalists. People whose minds allow no room for nuance. That’s not healthy.
Most religious people use their faith very personally. I don’t know any crazy fundamentalists, despite knowing people who go to church multiple times a week.
Not knowing fundamentalism lap blinds you to the fundamental realist nature of nearly all religion. At its base, it all has the same exclusivity that ultimately says ‘you’re not good enough and you need my secret to be good enough’. All the major religions are predicated on evangelizing and growing the fold. All of them. And all of them damn you when you don’t join.
Knowing fundamentalism opens your eyes to the fact that every religious person, intentionally or not, looks down at you for not agreeing. They see themselves as superior because they found the secret. It’s inherent to the belief, even when the believer is a good person. I’ve known as many non-fundamentalist religious people as I’ve known fundies, and they’re all the same at their core. They are in, you are out. They are saved, you are damned. They are blessed, you are cursed. They are ‘us’, you are ‘other’.
My problem was born of fundamentalism, but it showed me the fundamentalist nature of it all.
That problem exists in all groups of people. There are atheist fundamentalists too. You will see them loudly announcing their beliefs at the same volume as their religious cousins. Don’t tell them that though, it just makes them louder.
Religion is not the problem; a lack of nuance is. Just because you personally have figured out that God exists or doesn’t exist or whatever, that doesn’t mean I want to hear it yelled at me.
You went a bit left field with your comment but I have a few thoughts.
‘Atheist fundamentalist’ is a non-sequitor. Atheists aren’t a coalition or monolith with established beliefs or practices. They’re just people who don’t believe in god or a higher power or spirituality or whatever. They have no unifying dogma or ritual. There’s no cabal of atheists that decided that they know some secret truth, or that you are damned or cursed, or inherently lesser than, or deserve fewer rights because you believe. There are assholes out there, but the lack of organization is the key here.
Comparing loud obnoxious atheists to organized, systemic, and core religious principles and groups is apples and oranges. Not to mention that the lack of belief is not ‘belief’.
All that aside, I have never seen someone on a street corner with a bullhorn ‘preaching’ about non-belief. That’s not to say they don’t exist, I’m positive there are some obnoxious people that do it. But I have seen hundreds of Christians, Jews (certain sects, usually zionists), and people of other faiths on street corners, rest stops, and all other manner of places telling me I’m going to hell if I don’t join the club and conform. You’re presenting these as two equal problems when they’re not.
Sure I don’t want anyone telling me what I should or shouldn’t believe, but there is a preponderance of evidence that you’ll be assaulted by one and not the other. It’s like being more concerned about being attacked by a shark than struck by lightning when you live in South Dakota. Will you ever go to the beach? Probably a few times in your life, but the likelihood of being attacked by a shark is infinitesimal compared to your risk of being struck by lightning. Let’s address the real issues in these conversations and not build straw men to defend the vile.
They do have a dogma. Their dogma is “God’s not real”. A lot of them would love to shove that down their throat and act as if you are a scourge on the earth and are “irrational”
That’s not dogma. Dogma is laid down by a central authority for a group, of which there is none for atheists.
Yea there are some shitheads out there, but they’re the exception not the rule.
Stop trying to make it seem like atheists are some organized monolith of people when they’re not.
Christians aren’t inherently organised either. There are large churches like the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican communion, but you don’t need to be a part of these to be Christian.
Christianity doesn’t think that, basically everyone is damned and depraved equally, the “secret” doesn’t make you good enough, as it’s impossible to be good enough.
In fact they do believe that and you’re splitting hairs.
They believe that humans are inherently evil and can never be good enough (including themselves). Unless/until they accept Jesus and are washed by his blood in order to be made worthy.
You’re talking about inherent nature vs redeemed.
Source: 30 years in the church, 4 year degree from Christian university which includes comprehensive theology, and a 1 year internship with a fundie group that focused entirely on evangelical theology and ideology.
No, they aren’t worthy by the blood. The whole point Jesus died because they aren’t good enough. The blood redeems them, but we were never worthy of salvation.
What church were you in? Joel Osteen’s church? And what was your degree in? Because you are making a grave error already as you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. Christianity doesn’t preach that you can be worthy (Methodism has “Christian Perfection” but even then, sin was still committed) That’s why forgiveness and repentance are so important.
2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: ‘There is no-one righteous, not even one; there is no-one who understands; there is no-one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no-one who does good, not even one.’
It’s right there in your quote
You even affirmed by argument in your second sentence
Christians believe that they become worthy through the blood of Jesus. It is not something they believe they do themselves (though you get into some really interesting contradictions when you start reading Romans and James where it talks about things like faith without works being dead, justified by works, must be baptized, etc., indicating that the sacrifice that Jesus made maybe wasn’t quite enough), but something that they believe is done to them. Then, once they’re redeemed, they’re a part of an exclusive group that knows the (open) secret to redemption that they were able to grasp while the rest of the sinful world hasn’t been able to figure it out.
I really thought I made it clear that I’m not talking about the process of salvation but the result of it, ‘being made worthy by the blood of Jesus’. If I didn’t, I hope I’m making it clear now. You’re focusing on the most elementary theological concept of salvation while I’m trying to point out something that’s just a tad deeper than the skin.
Being redeemed doesn’t make you worthy or superior. It means to be forgiven. They don’t have competence, as it’s only the Holy Spirit acting through them that can create competence. It literally just said “Not that we are competent in ourselves”
So it’s not a superiority complex. If anything you should humble yourself.
YEC’s are cringe
You don’t have to trust them. But understand that the majority of them are trying to do the right thing, they’ve just been deeply misled. You have to view the essential goodness in them, which has been hijacked by a giant lie.
That’s where I’m at. I don’t trust them and I don’t get close to people I don’t trust.