Again, “do you condone”, it is a nice way of trying to turning around tables isn’t it? I will ask you the same “do you condone Israelis atrocities, warcrimes, stealing land, murdering since 1948 up until now?”
I’m not saying, that one is fine and the other is not. Don’t try to put words into my mouth, that I never wrote or implied.
I’m telling you, before even talking about Hamas warcrimes - Check Israelis warcrimes first. You seem to blame Hamas for everything however the entire blame is Israel’s.
It all started the moment they stole the land in 1948, displaced 750 000 people, apartheid state and kept going on from there.
It all started the moment they stole the land in 1948
That’s a fucking stupid start date.
It all started when the Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1917. The breakup of the empire leads to the modern Middle East crisis. Part of the deal from WW1 was Britain’s plan for the former Ottomans. Yes, it involves Israel and Palestine. It also involves a bunch of other things.
Palestine always was under another state. Yes, It was a Muslim Controlled Empire of the past few centuries, but that power doesn’t exist anymore.
Israel is stealing more land and homes and on a daily basis
Like all the settlers they removed from Gaza in 2005 and all the soldiers they removed?
This is fucking why Gaza vs West Bank matters dude. Gaza is the side the Israeli’s left and returned. To be attacked from “this side” is a huge deal from the perspective of the greater Palestinians vs Israel conflict… and for those who want peace in this region. Hamas has shattered the peace in a way that seemingly cannot be put back together.
Just 6 months ago, Israel was far more focused on West Bank issues than Gaza. Or have you forgotten? Its like history of the last 15 years is completely missing from your understanding, and you are choosing exceptionally weird dates (wtf? 1948 ain’t even the start of the Israel plan. Why the fuck are you choosing this date historically? Most people would choose Balfour Declaration or some shit).
To put it more diplomatically, yes, 1948 is a way too late of a starting year if you’re seeking to examine the full historical context of the conflict. Jewish immigration into post-Ottoman Palestine started significantly earlier and was explicitly supported by the British during the aftermath of World War I (some limited immigration happened even earlier). It should be noted that Britain’s actions here were directly contradictory to promises that they had made to their Arab allies during WWI, when they’d promised the Hashemite family (now the ruling royal family of Jordan, then ruling from Mecca) an Arab state from Mecca to Damascus in exchange for their military assistance against the Ottomans. My general understanding is that most of that immigration was generally legal, in that Jewish immigrants legally purchased land that they moved in to, but a lot of those landowners were Ottomans and their claim to the land can certainly be criticized. At any rate, as the number of Jews increased, tensions quickly emerged, Jews and Arabs rapidly started fighting, both sides commit terrible acts, and the moment the British leave, true war breaks out as all of Israel’s neighbors invade, with the Israelis ultimately being successful and roughly establishing the modern borders of the West Bank and Gaza.
I personally would argue that we’re long past the point where who started what is a particularly useful question towards finding a path to peace, since both sides have done terrible things and have next to no trust for one another, but if you want to explore the history, you really do need to go back to Ottoman Palestine, the beginnings of Zionism in the late 1800s, and World War I.
For some interesting context, I’d point you to the main image of this article, which shows land in British Palestine that was legally owned by Jews. The vast vast majority of Israel’s Jewish population still lives in these same areas. Now again, most of this land was purchased from non-Palestinian land owners who had acquired it during the Ottoman era, and you can certainly criticize that as unfair or unjust, but I honestly don’t think “steal” accurately describes the situation. You might say that the establishment of the Israeli state was a theft, but I don’t see how that’s meaningfully different than the establishment of British Mandatory Palestine, or Ottoman Palestine before that. You might say that modern Israel is the result of western imperialism, and I can somewhat understand that argument, but given that it was earlier under the Ottoman Empire, who were certainly not loved by the local Arab population, the difference feels almost more aesthetic than anything else.
For what it’s worth, I do fully support an independent Palestine and think Netanyahu is a horror with zero interest in peace, though I also can understand that Israel has legitimate security concerns, though the retaliation in Gaza has absolutely been excessive.
1948 is a stupid start date for understanding this problem. The Israeli state was promised by the British in 1917, years before the British took over the region of Palestine. Deal with it. Before the founding of Mandatory Palestine of 1920 (which only existed as a piecemeal state the British took over after the Ottoman collapse), Britain already had plans for Israel.
History is a wee bit deeper than you might think it seems. Balfour Declaration is rather significant to the discussion, and your avoidance of the subject is quite telling. The plans for Israeli settlement were laid out nearly three decades before 1948.
It is the West Bank, does not take away about what is happening. I’m not conflating it, I’m explaining it.
Israel is stealing more land and homes and on a daily basis, murdering Palestinian people on a daily basis. Apartheid state.
Israel even said, they wanted to drop an atomic bomb on Gaza https://apnews.com/article/israel-nuclear-weapons-gaza-iran-china-1e18f34dcec40582166796b0ade65768. Not to mention, they called Palestinian people “animals”. I can get that article for you too, if needed.
Again, “do you condone”, it is a nice way of trying to turning around tables isn’t it? I will ask you the same “do you condone Israelis atrocities, warcrimes, stealing land, murdering since 1948 up until now?”
I’m not saying, that one is fine and the other is not. Don’t try to put words into my mouth, that I never wrote or implied.
I’m telling you, before even talking about Hamas warcrimes - Check Israelis warcrimes first. You seem to blame Hamas for everything however the entire blame is Israel’s. It all started the moment they stole the land in 1948, displaced 750 000 people, apartheid state and kept going on from there.
That’s a fucking stupid start date.
It all started when the Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1917. The breakup of the empire leads to the modern Middle East crisis. Part of the deal from WW1 was Britain’s plan for the former Ottomans. Yes, it involves Israel and Palestine. It also involves a bunch of other things.
Palestine always was under another state. Yes, It was a Muslim Controlled Empire of the past few centuries, but that power doesn’t exist anymore.
Like all the settlers they removed from Gaza in 2005 and all the soldiers they removed?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
This is fucking why Gaza vs West Bank matters dude. Gaza is the side the Israeli’s left and returned. To be attacked from “this side” is a huge deal from the perspective of the greater Palestinians vs Israel conflict… and for those who want peace in this region. Hamas has shattered the peace in a way that seemingly cannot be put back together.
Just 6 months ago, Israel was far more focused on West Bank issues than Gaza. Or have you forgotten? Its like history of the last 15 years is completely missing from your understanding, and you are choosing exceptionally weird dates (wtf? 1948 ain’t even the start of the Israel plan. Why the fuck are you choosing this date historically? Most people would choose Balfour Declaration or some shit).
You seem not to be able to discuss without being rude, it seems.
It is not a “stupid start date” is the start date that Israel became Israel and stole the land from the Palestinian people.
Since you are not able to discuss with manners, I refuse to explain anything further.
If anyone else wants to pick up the discussing from here with me on a nice manner, I’ll give counter arguments to this persons claim.
To put it more diplomatically, yes, 1948 is a way too late of a starting year if you’re seeking to examine the full historical context of the conflict. Jewish immigration into post-Ottoman Palestine started significantly earlier and was explicitly supported by the British during the aftermath of World War I (some limited immigration happened even earlier). It should be noted that Britain’s actions here were directly contradictory to promises that they had made to their Arab allies during WWI, when they’d promised the Hashemite family (now the ruling royal family of Jordan, then ruling from Mecca) an Arab state from Mecca to Damascus in exchange for their military assistance against the Ottomans. My general understanding is that most of that immigration was generally legal, in that Jewish immigrants legally purchased land that they moved in to, but a lot of those landowners were Ottomans and their claim to the land can certainly be criticized. At any rate, as the number of Jews increased, tensions quickly emerged, Jews and Arabs rapidly started fighting, both sides commit terrible acts, and the moment the British leave, true war breaks out as all of Israel’s neighbors invade, with the Israelis ultimately being successful and roughly establishing the modern borders of the West Bank and Gaza.
I personally would argue that we’re long past the point where who started what is a particularly useful question towards finding a path to peace, since both sides have done terrible things and have next to no trust for one another, but if you want to explore the history, you really do need to go back to Ottoman Palestine, the beginnings of Zionism in the late 1800s, and World War I.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
For some interesting context, I’d point you to the main image of this article, which shows land in British Palestine that was legally owned by Jews. The vast vast majority of Israel’s Jewish population still lives in these same areas. Now again, most of this land was purchased from non-Palestinian land owners who had acquired it during the Ottoman era, and you can certainly criticize that as unfair or unjust, but I honestly don’t think “steal” accurately describes the situation. You might say that the establishment of the Israeli state was a theft, but I don’t see how that’s meaningfully different than the establishment of British Mandatory Palestine, or Ottoman Palestine before that. You might say that modern Israel is the result of western imperialism, and I can somewhat understand that argument, but given that it was earlier under the Ottoman Empire, who were certainly not loved by the local Arab population, the difference feels almost more aesthetic than anything else.
For what it’s worth, I do fully support an independent Palestine and think Netanyahu is a horror with zero interest in peace, though I also can understand that Israel has legitimate security concerns, though the retaliation in Gaza has absolutely been excessive.
So you really don’t know what the Balfour Declaration was, who the Ottomans were, the end of WW1 or any of that?
Fine, whatever. Figure it out yourself.
Just read my last sentence/ paragraph. That’s all I have to say. After this I will not comment to you anymore.
I stand by what I said before.
1948 is a stupid start date for understanding this problem. The Israeli state was promised by the British in 1917, years before the British took over the region of Palestine. Deal with it. Before the founding of Mandatory Palestine of 1920 (which only existed as a piecemeal state the British took over after the Ottoman collapse), Britain already had plans for Israel.
History is a wee bit deeper than you might think it seems. Balfour Declaration is rather significant to the discussion, and your avoidance of the subject is quite telling. The plans for Israeli settlement were laid out nearly three decades before 1948.