I believe liberals are impoverishing people and fascists are there to give them a way while still being in a capitalist / nationalistic framework. People think they’re making the right thing. They’re being fooled
I agree, voting isn’t a moral imperative implicitly.
Like your mafia example. You stop paying them, then you get your store burnt down. It’s not a moral imperative to pay them. But you do want to keep your store. Maybe you pay them now and do work to weaken the mafia between now and your next payment. Maybe you will end the mafia, maybe your payment will be less, maybe nothing will change except you have another day to enjoy being a store owner.
Also the price to vote isn’t that bad. It is one day a year at most.
Like your mafia example. You stop paying them, then you get your store burnt down. It’s not a moral imperative to pay them. But you do want to keep your store. Maybe you pay them now and do work to weaken the mafia between now and your next payment. Maybe you will end the mafia, maybe your payment will be less, maybe nothing will change except you have another day to enjoy being a store owner.
That is short-therm thinking. When I was in Catania, some shops were proudly announcing that they were not paying the mafia. Sometime to stop being blackmailed, you have to stop paying and face the consequences.
Anyway, look I understand where you’re coming from but I could not vote for liberals. And I would not accept anybody telling me I’m facilitating anything. Fascists are responsible for fascism. Nobody else.
Anyway, look I understand where you’re coming from but I could not vote for liberals. And I would not accept anybody telling me I’m facilitating anything.
I have nothing against a personal choice not to vote. That is understandable. People fought really hard for Bernie and the DNC did them dirty. Political burn out is real and is happening, so if you or anyone needs to step out of it for a while, I fully support you Kings and Queens.
My problem is the public push for not voting as a solution to improve things. It looks like a bad idea to me. If people personally don’t want to vote, that is fine, I wish people would stop trying to justify and convince people it is the right tactic when it’s just that they need a break.
Listen, the rest of this post is counter arguments against some of your arguments. I put them in here for posterity. I hope you (@wildcherry) don’t feel the need to engage with them. Let someone else counter them. I don’t think it is beneficial for us to keep going at it. Rest King.
That is short-therm thinking. When I was in Catania, some shops were proudly announcing that they were not paying the mafia. Sometime to stop being blackmailed, you have to stop paying and face the consequences.
Fascists are responsible for fascism. Nobody else.
So let the fascist win unopposed? The consequence of this is not just a store getting burned down, its the loss of freedoms, lives, and democracy.
Voting for negative reason only leads to an implicit cartel where the fascists are being more and more obnoxious and the libs more and more centrists. Why would they do anything right, they have their alter ego to scare people off.
I agree 100%. That is why voting alone is not going to solve problems. Organization must happen. Voting gives us time not change. Biden will be 4 years of slow decay and garbage. Trump will be 4 years of fast decay and by the end of it, we may all be arrested for having this discussion on Lemmy. Maybe after Biden and Trump die, there will be better candidates thanks to the organization.
I’m not saying everyone has to vote. I am saying that we should encourage people to vote.
I see it like this:
If we vote. We lose a day worth of organizing effort. We tip the scales towards a president that probably wont try to remove democracy. We probably get 4 more years of organization time plus more depending on the next president elected. We get to keep fighting.
If we don’t vote. We gain a days worth of organizing effort. We tip the scales towards a president that will probably try to become a dictator and has the means to do so. Maybe we get at most 4 more years of organizing done, then that is it. We either need to have a revolution or give up.
I hate it, but this is how the math works out in my head. I don’t understand what we gain that would outweigh the losses by not voting.
Ok so your most important belief is Joe Biden is bad. You don’t care about quality of life or freedom, just Joe Biden is bad.
I’d say that your decision not to vote is still dumb. You can meet your beliefs better by voting for Trump. That way Biden has less of a chance of winning.
I don’t think Joe Biden is bad. I think he’s a symptom of a larger problem. I think on his own, he’s probably not a bad guy, I’m sure I’d probably even like him if I had to talk with the guy.
I think the entire Democratic party is beholden to the Almighty dollar. I think they bow down to corporate interests at every turn. You want me to hate Joe Biden so badly but it’s just so much deeper than that.
I agree 100%. The system is not working in our favor and never really has.
I don’t understand what the plan is. We don’t vote. Then what?
The strategy up till now has been clear to me. We keep growing dual power structures, spreading information, talking, growing public opinion, voting for the lesser evil. Bernie wasn’t a complete L. He got a lot of attention and shifted the narrative a bit. Years from now, once we hit a threshold, the candidates and the conversation shift. Why is this plan no longer viable?
What plan? Keep showing up and voting for the same guys? I know it’s crazy but we actually have a third option, we’ve just been told over and over again that it’s equal to throwing our votes away (I wonder who would benefit from that?) and if we all believe that, then of course it is.
Bernie wins in 2016 if the DNC had the balls the back him, but they don’t because they have no incentive to run a guy like that. He’s antithetical to their platform.
They aren’t the lesser of two evils, they’re one in the same with a different letter next to their name.
Ok, so you don’t have a plan. You are just hoping that when you don’t vote, some asteroids will show up before Trump becomes president and kills him and all the fascists in a very unlikely freak accident.
They aren’t the lesser of two evils, they’re one in the same with a different letter next to their name.
Yeah, your right, Biden and Trump same people, same outcome. Biden will obviously pardon all Jan 6thers and will attempt coup the US. /s
Sorry, I just have a hard time taking these arguments seriously. If you don’t want to vote, that’s fine. The only reason why I am arguing for anything here. Is because people like you are saying that not voting is a serious, good, and very real strategy to improve things. I just think it is handing the country over to fascists prematurely because of a temper tantrum.
Listen, maybe nothing can be done, maybe we are screwed. Who cares, spend one day to try to extend what we have a little bit longer. Who knows, maybe that asteroid will come for Trump and all the fascists after the next term.
What are your beliefs and how does voting for the lesser evil compromise them?
I believe liberals are impoverishing people and fascists are there to give them a way while still being in a capitalist / nationalistic framework. People think they’re making the right thing. They’re being fooled
Okay great! You think these things, but what do you believe? Do you believe in freedom? Do you believe in quality of life?
It seems like you don’t like fascism. Why not vote for the less fascist candidate?
Because on the long run, voting for the less fascist is still voting for a fascist.
Ok, how will not voting result in a non-fascist president?
The mafia: How will not paying protection result in your store not burning?
Voting is not a moral imperative, and especially not when the main argument to do it is that one side is less shitty than the other.
I agree, voting isn’t a moral imperative implicitly.
Like your mafia example. You stop paying them, then you get your store burnt down. It’s not a moral imperative to pay them. But you do want to keep your store. Maybe you pay them now and do work to weaken the mafia between now and your next payment. Maybe you will end the mafia, maybe your payment will be less, maybe nothing will change except you have another day to enjoy being a store owner.
Also the price to vote isn’t that bad. It is one day a year at most.
That is short-therm thinking. When I was in Catania, some shops were proudly announcing that they were not paying the mafia. Sometime to stop being blackmailed, you have to stop paying and face the consequences.
Anyway, look I understand where you’re coming from but I could not vote for liberals. And I would not accept anybody telling me I’m facilitating anything. Fascists are responsible for fascism. Nobody else.
I have nothing against a personal choice not to vote. That is understandable. People fought really hard for Bernie and the DNC did them dirty. Political burn out is real and is happening, so if you or anyone needs to step out of it for a while, I fully support you Kings and Queens.
My problem is the public push for not voting as a solution to improve things. It looks like a bad idea to me. If people personally don’t want to vote, that is fine, I wish people would stop trying to justify and convince people it is the right tactic when it’s just that they need a break.
Listen, the rest of this post is counter arguments against some of your arguments. I put them in here for posterity. I hope you (@wildcherry) don’t feel the need to engage with them. Let someone else counter them. I don’t think it is beneficial for us to keep going at it. Rest King.
So let the fascist win unopposed? The consequence of this is not just a store getting burned down, its the loss of freedoms, lives, and democracy.
Voting for negative reason only leads to an implicit cartel where the fascists are being more and more obnoxious and the libs more and more centrists. Why would they do anything right, they have their alter ego to scare people off.
I agree 100%. That is why voting alone is not going to solve problems. Organization must happen. Voting gives us time not change. Biden will be 4 years of slow decay and garbage. Trump will be 4 years of fast decay and by the end of it, we may all be arrested for having this discussion on Lemmy. Maybe after Biden and Trump die, there will be better candidates thanks to the organization.
I’m not saying everyone has to vote. I am saying that we should encourage people to vote.
I see it like this:
I hate it, but this is how the math works out in my head. I don’t understand what we gain that would outweigh the losses by not voting.
“why not vote for the less fascist candidate”
That’s wild lmao
Why? Do you want a more fascist candidate? If you do, then vote for Trump.
I think Joe Biden is the stooge of a political party hell bent on delivering the status quo neoliberal policies home and abroad.
I am sick of voting for these people. They’re ghouls.
Ok so your most important belief is Joe Biden is bad. You don’t care about quality of life or freedom, just Joe Biden is bad.
I’d say that your decision not to vote is still dumb. You can meet your beliefs better by voting for Trump. That way Biden has less of a chance of winning.
I don’t think Joe Biden is bad. I think he’s a symptom of a larger problem. I think on his own, he’s probably not a bad guy, I’m sure I’d probably even like him if I had to talk with the guy.
I think the entire Democratic party is beholden to the Almighty dollar. I think they bow down to corporate interests at every turn. You want me to hate Joe Biden so badly but it’s just so much deeper than that.
I agree 100%. The system is not working in our favor and never really has.
I don’t understand what the plan is. We don’t vote. Then what?
The strategy up till now has been clear to me. We keep growing dual power structures, spreading information, talking, growing public opinion, voting for the lesser evil. Bernie wasn’t a complete L. He got a lot of attention and shifted the narrative a bit. Years from now, once we hit a threshold, the candidates and the conversation shift. Why is this plan no longer viable?
What plan? Keep showing up and voting for the same guys? I know it’s crazy but we actually have a third option, we’ve just been told over and over again that it’s equal to throwing our votes away (I wonder who would benefit from that?) and if we all believe that, then of course it is.
Bernie wins in 2016 if the DNC had the balls the back him, but they don’t because they have no incentive to run a guy like that. He’s antithetical to their platform.
They aren’t the lesser of two evils, they’re one in the same with a different letter next to their name.
Ok, so you don’t have a plan. You are just hoping that when you don’t vote, some asteroids will show up before Trump becomes president and kills him and all the fascists in a very unlikely freak accident.
Yeah, your right, Biden and Trump same people, same outcome. Biden will obviously pardon all Jan 6thers and will attempt coup the US. /s
Sorry, I just have a hard time taking these arguments seriously. If you don’t want to vote, that’s fine. The only reason why I am arguing for anything here. Is because people like you are saying that not voting is a serious, good, and very real strategy to improve things. I just think it is handing the country over to fascists prematurely because of a temper tantrum.
Listen, maybe nothing can be done, maybe we are screwed. Who cares, spend one day to try to extend what we have a little bit longer. Who knows, maybe that asteroid will come for Trump and all the fascists after the next term.