If I don’t agree with either candidate, I’m not voting for them, simple as that. I don’t care what someone else thinks about my choice, I’m done compromising on my beliefs for old men who can’t step aside.
Because this is a discussion about the issue of not voting? Discussion is something that this website needs more of so I try to comment on articles if I have an opinion. I don’t care if you discount my opinion, I’m just not going to be shamed because of it.
Here’s another way to look at it. This is one of those things where you hear older people bitching about “the youths don’t vote” and then when you get to be that age your think. Jesus fuck, they are so right.
It’s one of those wisdoms you wish you could download into peoples brains because it’s so important.
We have always hated our choices. They always suck for one reason or another. Your best option and (here’s thing people forget)* the best option for everyone you care about*. Is to suck it up, and vote for whomever you think would be the best choice for those you love. It’s that simple.
Nothing is fair and most things are shitty compromises but you gotta do the work or things get worse.
I mean I’m 35, I’m not exactly a “youth” anymore. I was SO excited to vote for Obama in 08 for my first eligible election. I started video editing in high school by making campaign videos on YouTube. I’ve voted in every primary and general election since then. This would be the first time since I’ve been of voting age that I’ve even considered not voting.
We all know the voting system in this country is shit, the two party system is shit, but we keep telling everyone to show up because “that’s the best we have”. Well, maybe it doesn’t have to be.
If the “work” is us showing up once every 4 years to cast a vote that really only decides anything if you’re in swing states then I think there’s probably room for way more to be done.
We should definitely vote. It’s our only real voice in the way our government is run. The problem is the 2 party system. It would fall apart if more Americans started realizing that their vote doesn’t have to be (and shouldn’t be) held hostage by a douche and a turd.
We’re their bosses, we hire them to do a job for us (running the country and upholding the constitution) and we can fire them for not doing it too.
Hope is all well and good, but you’re expecting too much if people can’t even show up for the bare minimum.
Which is why I like to focus on the fundamentals of democracy first. Teach people how to learn and get them to show up to vote when they should.
We all need to accept the fact that some things won’t change in our lifetime for the better. So showing up to vote in a “hopeless” vote in an election where the opposition “always” wins is super important. You can’t chip away at that shit if you don’t vote.
That said, my hopes are for a future without wealth hoarding. Functional government who is not only responsible but accountable (up to and including with their lives) . Where art, science and education are the most respected vocations on earth… but I’ll most likely be long dead before a society like that exists again… so for now I’ll just add my tiny pebble to the mountain of change.
You’re essentially praying to Biden or Trump that they hear you’re dissatisfied with them. You can have your opinion and the strong belief that you’re personally taking a stand, but its such a functionally useless empty gesture.
So is voting blue in a historically red dominated state…
Again, I don’t really care how meaningful you think your vote for Biden is. It means more to me right now to not cast a vote than it would to choose the lesser of two evils. I’m glad you feel the way you do about this election, but I don’t, and I’m not going to cast a vote just I can feel “useful”.
Um yeah, pretty much this. At the end of the day, isn’t that kind of all that matters? Be true to yourself and all that? Isn’t that the same thing you’re doing with your vote?
“Isn’t voting the same as not voting?” asks the spoiled brat who takes democracy completely for granted. You are subject to political outcomes of democracy whether you like it or not. Voting isn’t that hard. Therefore not voting is irrational.
I’ll be at the polls to vote local/state. I’ll probably even vote third party because at a core level I believe in the act of voting, just not for these two jabronis.
Stop letting them tell you this is the best we can do. We CAN do better, but people in power have incentive to keep it this way for a reason.
I think that is totally valid and fair. I’m right there with you on disliking both upcoming US president options. One is openly trying to end our democracy and become a dictator, the other is aiding and allowing a genocide, both of which are morally reprehensible things for a leader.
That being said, until FPTP voting is removed and we get something better like Ranked Choice, then I will unfortunately continue to vote blue in the hopes that it at least keeps us from sliding into a dictatorship.
I think the best thing the people of this country could possibly do in the coming years is campaign for it and say it loudly and consistently and do anything we can to get that to happen. Just this one thing could fundamentally change this country for the better. We could stop choosing the least-worst candidates and actually use our votes to mean something. Imagine not having the 2 big parties running primaries to put 1 candidate up each that we have to choose from, but instead a whole array of both those parties and independents and all the other parties. It would go from 2 old men to dozens of people from all ages and races and backgrounds getting to speak.
I believe liberals are impoverishing people and fascists are there to give them a way while still being in a capitalist / nationalistic framework. People think they’re making the right thing. They’re being fooled
I agree, voting isn’t a moral imperative implicitly.
Like your mafia example. You stop paying them, then you get your store burnt down. It’s not a moral imperative to pay them. But you do want to keep your store. Maybe you pay them now and do work to weaken the mafia between now and your next payment. Maybe you will end the mafia, maybe your payment will be less, maybe nothing will change except you have another day to enjoy being a store owner.
Also the price to vote isn’t that bad. It is one day a year at most.
Like your mafia example. You stop paying them, then you get your store burnt down. It’s not a moral imperative to pay them. But you do want to keep your store. Maybe you pay them now and do work to weaken the mafia between now and your next payment. Maybe you will end the mafia, maybe your payment will be less, maybe nothing will change except you have another day to enjoy being a store owner.
That is short-therm thinking. When I was in Catania, some shops were proudly announcing that they were not paying the mafia. Sometime to stop being blackmailed, you have to stop paying and face the consequences.
Anyway, look I understand where you’re coming from but I could not vote for liberals. And I would not accept anybody telling me I’m facilitating anything. Fascists are responsible for fascism. Nobody else.
Voting for negative reason only leads to an implicit cartel where the fascists are being more and more obnoxious and the libs more and more centrists. Why would they do anything right, they have their alter ego to scare people off.
I agree 100%. That is why voting alone is not going to solve problems. Organization must happen. Voting gives us time not change. Biden will be 4 years of slow decay and garbage. Trump will be 4 years of fast decay and by the end of it, we may all be arrested for having this discussion on Lemmy. Maybe after Biden and Trump die, there will be better candidates thanks to the organization.
I’m not saying everyone has to vote. I am saying that we should encourage people to vote.
I see it like this:
If we vote. We lose a day worth of organizing effort. We tip the scales towards a president that probably wont try to remove democracy. We probably get 4 more years of organization time plus more depending on the next president elected. We get to keep fighting.
If we don’t vote. We gain a days worth of organizing effort. We tip the scales towards a president that will probably try to become a dictator and has the means to do so. Maybe we get at most 4 more years of organizing done, then that is it. We either need to have a revolution or give up.
I hate it, but this is how the math works out in my head. I don’t understand what we gain that would outweigh the losses by not voting.
Ok so your most important belief is Joe Biden is bad. You don’t care about quality of life or freedom, just Joe Biden is bad.
I’d say that your decision not to vote is still dumb. You can meet your beliefs better by voting for Trump. That way Biden has less of a chance of winning.
I don’t think Joe Biden is bad. I think he’s a symptom of a larger problem. I think on his own, he’s probably not a bad guy, I’m sure I’d probably even like him if I had to talk with the guy.
I think the entire Democratic party is beholden to the Almighty dollar. I think they bow down to corporate interests at every turn. You want me to hate Joe Biden so badly but it’s just so much deeper than that.
I agree 100%. The system is not working in our favor and never really has.
I don’t understand what the plan is. We don’t vote. Then what?
The strategy up till now has been clear to me. We keep growing dual power structures, spreading information, talking, growing public opinion, voting for the lesser evil. Bernie wasn’t a complete L. He got a lot of attention and shifted the narrative a bit. Years from now, once we hit a threshold, the candidates and the conversation shift. Why is this plan no longer viable?
What plan? Keep showing up and voting for the same guys? I know it’s crazy but we actually have a third option, we’ve just been told over and over again that it’s equal to throwing our votes away (I wonder who would benefit from that?) and if we all believe that, then of course it is.
Bernie wins in 2016 if the DNC had the balls the back him, but they don’t because they have no incentive to run a guy like that. He’s antithetical to their platform.
They aren’t the lesser of two evils, they’re one in the same with a different letter next to their name.
Ok, so you don’t have a plan. You are just hoping that when you don’t vote, some asteroids will show up before Trump becomes president and kills him and all the fascists in a very unlikely freak accident.
They aren’t the lesser of two evils, they’re one in the same with a different letter next to their name.
Yeah, your right, Biden and Trump same people, same outcome. Biden will obviously pardon all Jan 6thers and will attempt coup the US. /s
Sorry, I just have a hard time taking these arguments seriously. If you don’t want to vote, that’s fine. The only reason why I am arguing for anything here. Is because people like you are saying that not voting is a serious, good, and very real strategy to improve things. I just think it is handing the country over to fascists prematurely because of a temper tantrum.
Listen, maybe nothing can be done, maybe we are screwed. Who cares, spend one day to try to extend what we have a little bit longer. Who knows, maybe that asteroid will come for Trump and all the fascists after the next term.
If I don’t agree with either candidate, I’m not voting for them, simple as that. I don’t care what someone else thinks about my choice, I’m done compromising on my beliefs for old men who can’t step aside.
This is equivalent to announcing you want us to completely discount your opinion. So why even mention it at all?
Because this is a discussion about the issue of not voting? Discussion is something that this website needs more of so I try to comment on articles if I have an opinion. I don’t care if you discount my opinion, I’m just not going to be shamed because of it.
Here’s another way to look at it. This is one of those things where you hear older people bitching about “the youths don’t vote” and then when you get to be that age your think. Jesus fuck, they are so right.
It’s one of those wisdoms you wish you could download into peoples brains because it’s so important.
We have always hated our choices. They always suck for one reason or another. Your best option and (here’s thing people forget)* the best option for everyone you care about*. Is to suck it up, and vote for whomever you think would be the best choice for those you love. It’s that simple.
Nothing is fair and most things are shitty compromises but you gotta do the work or things get worse.
I mean I’m 35, I’m not exactly a “youth” anymore. I was SO excited to vote for Obama in 08 for my first eligible election. I started video editing in high school by making campaign videos on YouTube. I’ve voted in every primary and general election since then. This would be the first time since I’ve been of voting age that I’ve even considered not voting.
We all know the voting system in this country is shit, the two party system is shit, but we keep telling everyone to show up because “that’s the best we have”. Well, maybe it doesn’t have to be.
If the “work” is us showing up once every 4 years to cast a vote that really only decides anything if you’re in swing states then I think there’s probably room for way more to be done.
We should definitely vote. It’s our only real voice in the way our government is run. The problem is the 2 party system. It would fall apart if more Americans started realizing that their vote doesn’t have to be (and shouldn’t be) held hostage by a douche and a turd.
We’re their bosses, we hire them to do a job for us (running the country and upholding the constitution) and we can fire them for not doing it too.
Hope is all well and good, but you’re expecting too much if people can’t even show up for the bare minimum.
Which is why I like to focus on the fundamentals of democracy first. Teach people how to learn and get them to show up to vote when they should.
We all need to accept the fact that some things won’t change in our lifetime for the better. So showing up to vote in a “hopeless” vote in an election where the opposition “always” wins is super important. You can’t chip away at that shit if you don’t vote.
That said, my hopes are for a future without wealth hoarding. Functional government who is not only responsible but accountable (up to and including with their lives) . Where art, science and education are the most respected vocations on earth… but I’ll most likely be long dead before a society like that exists again… so for now I’ll just add my tiny pebble to the mountain of change.
You’re essentially praying to Biden or Trump that they hear you’re dissatisfied with them. You can have your opinion and the strong belief that you’re personally taking a stand, but its such a functionally useless empty gesture.
So is voting blue in a historically red dominated state…
Again, I don’t really care how meaningful you think your vote for Biden is. It means more to me right now to not cast a vote than it would to choose the lesser of two evils. I’m glad you feel the way you do about this election, but I don’t, and I’m not going to cast a vote just I can feel “useful”.
Cool. Everyone will ignore you but hey at least you’re self-satisfied with your own internal logic.
Um yeah, pretty much this. At the end of the day, isn’t that kind of all that matters? Be true to yourself and all that? Isn’t that the same thing you’re doing with your vote?
“Isn’t voting the same as not voting?” asks the spoiled brat who takes democracy completely for granted. You are subject to political outcomes of democracy whether you like it or not. Voting isn’t that hard. Therefore not voting is irrational.
I’ll be at the polls to vote local/state. I’ll probably even vote third party because at a core level I believe in the act of voting, just not for these two jabronis.
Stop letting them tell you this is the best we can do. We CAN do better, but people in power have incentive to keep it this way for a reason.
I think that is totally valid and fair. I’m right there with you on disliking both upcoming US president options. One is openly trying to end our democracy and become a dictator, the other is aiding and allowing a genocide, both of which are morally reprehensible things for a leader.
That being said, until FPTP voting is removed and we get something better like Ranked Choice, then I will unfortunately continue to vote blue in the hopes that it at least keeps us from sliding into a dictatorship.
I think the best thing the people of this country could possibly do in the coming years is campaign for it and say it loudly and consistently and do anything we can to get that to happen. Just this one thing could fundamentally change this country for the better. We could stop choosing the least-worst candidates and actually use our votes to mean something. Imagine not having the 2 big parties running primaries to put 1 candidate up each that we have to choose from, but instead a whole array of both those parties and independents and all the other parties. It would go from 2 old men to dozens of people from all ages and races and backgrounds getting to speak.
What are your beliefs and how does voting for the lesser evil compromise them?
I believe liberals are impoverishing people and fascists are there to give them a way while still being in a capitalist / nationalistic framework. People think they’re making the right thing. They’re being fooled
Okay great! You think these things, but what do you believe? Do you believe in freedom? Do you believe in quality of life?
It seems like you don’t like fascism. Why not vote for the less fascist candidate?
Because on the long run, voting for the less fascist is still voting for a fascist.
Ok, how will not voting result in a non-fascist president?
The mafia: How will not paying protection result in your store not burning?
Voting is not a moral imperative, and especially not when the main argument to do it is that one side is less shitty than the other.
I agree, voting isn’t a moral imperative implicitly.
Like your mafia example. You stop paying them, then you get your store burnt down. It’s not a moral imperative to pay them. But you do want to keep your store. Maybe you pay them now and do work to weaken the mafia between now and your next payment. Maybe you will end the mafia, maybe your payment will be less, maybe nothing will change except you have another day to enjoy being a store owner.
Also the price to vote isn’t that bad. It is one day a year at most.
That is short-therm thinking. When I was in Catania, some shops were proudly announcing that they were not paying the mafia. Sometime to stop being blackmailed, you have to stop paying and face the consequences.
Anyway, look I understand where you’re coming from but I could not vote for liberals. And I would not accept anybody telling me I’m facilitating anything. Fascists are responsible for fascism. Nobody else.
Voting for negative reason only leads to an implicit cartel where the fascists are being more and more obnoxious and the libs more and more centrists. Why would they do anything right, they have their alter ego to scare people off.
I agree 100%. That is why voting alone is not going to solve problems. Organization must happen. Voting gives us time not change. Biden will be 4 years of slow decay and garbage. Trump will be 4 years of fast decay and by the end of it, we may all be arrested for having this discussion on Lemmy. Maybe after Biden and Trump die, there will be better candidates thanks to the organization.
I’m not saying everyone has to vote. I am saying that we should encourage people to vote.
I see it like this:
I hate it, but this is how the math works out in my head. I don’t understand what we gain that would outweigh the losses by not voting.
“why not vote for the less fascist candidate”
That’s wild lmao
Why? Do you want a more fascist candidate? If you do, then vote for Trump.
I think Joe Biden is the stooge of a political party hell bent on delivering the status quo neoliberal policies home and abroad.
I am sick of voting for these people. They’re ghouls.
Ok so your most important belief is Joe Biden is bad. You don’t care about quality of life or freedom, just Joe Biden is bad.
I’d say that your decision not to vote is still dumb. You can meet your beliefs better by voting for Trump. That way Biden has less of a chance of winning.
I don’t think Joe Biden is bad. I think he’s a symptom of a larger problem. I think on his own, he’s probably not a bad guy, I’m sure I’d probably even like him if I had to talk with the guy.
I think the entire Democratic party is beholden to the Almighty dollar. I think they bow down to corporate interests at every turn. You want me to hate Joe Biden so badly but it’s just so much deeper than that.
I agree 100%. The system is not working in our favor and never really has.
I don’t understand what the plan is. We don’t vote. Then what?
The strategy up till now has been clear to me. We keep growing dual power structures, spreading information, talking, growing public opinion, voting for the lesser evil. Bernie wasn’t a complete L. He got a lot of attention and shifted the narrative a bit. Years from now, once we hit a threshold, the candidates and the conversation shift. Why is this plan no longer viable?
What plan? Keep showing up and voting for the same guys? I know it’s crazy but we actually have a third option, we’ve just been told over and over again that it’s equal to throwing our votes away (I wonder who would benefit from that?) and if we all believe that, then of course it is.
Bernie wins in 2016 if the DNC had the balls the back him, but they don’t because they have no incentive to run a guy like that. He’s antithetical to their platform.
They aren’t the lesser of two evils, they’re one in the same with a different letter next to their name.
Ok, so you don’t have a plan. You are just hoping that when you don’t vote, some asteroids will show up before Trump becomes president and kills him and all the fascists in a very unlikely freak accident.
Yeah, your right, Biden and Trump same people, same outcome. Biden will obviously pardon all Jan 6thers and will attempt coup the US. /s
Sorry, I just have a hard time taking these arguments seriously. If you don’t want to vote, that’s fine. The only reason why I am arguing for anything here. Is because people like you are saying that not voting is a serious, good, and very real strategy to improve things. I just think it is handing the country over to fascists prematurely because of a temper tantrum.
Listen, maybe nothing can be done, maybe we are screwed. Who cares, spend one day to try to extend what we have a little bit longer. Who knows, maybe that asteroid will come for Trump and all the fascists after the next term.