Yeah, except we can do this experiment without ant consciousness aware of it even and it gets the same results. The only thing that matters is if the particle has to interact with something, because when it does it becomes a specific particle rather than a waveform. What that interaction is with does not effect the experiment in the slightest. A consciousness does not have any effect on the results of the experiment so there’s no reason to expect that the universe cares about consciousness. To the universe, consciousness is yet just another series of interaction of things that behave the same as anything else, except it happens in a pattern that we think of as thought.
Nope. That isn’t it. My understanding is it essentially has to do with the position being required for an interaction to happen. It exists as a waveform until some interaction (any interaction) requires the position to be finite for the interaction to take place. That collapses the waveform (aka, the likelihood for all possible positions collapses into just one possibility) and the interaction happens. It has nothing to do with speed, only the need of the position to be known to perform an interaction.
Ok but how do you actually remove consciousness from the experiment?
Seriously curious because from my point of view no matter what a conscience agent has to check the results
Use a computer? I guess you could say it all collapses when an actual consciousness checks what state things are at, but that’d be a rediculous claim to make. This is where Occam’s Razor is useful. Why introduce a concept of a consciousness being required when it would function identically but be significantly stranger and more complex?
What is consciousness to the universe anyway? It’s nothing but a system of electrical impulses, and there no reason to think there’s anything physically special about it. It’s just an interesting phenomenon that happened, but fundamentally it isn’t anything special.
I’m totally in agreement that the observer effect is not caused by consciousness, but…
What is consciousness to the universe anyway? It’s nothing but a system of electrical impulses,
This is a claim unsupported by evidence. I submit to you that just as we can explain the observer effect without invoking consciousness, we can also explain cognition without it. We can’t even prove consciousness exists at all! I know I’m conscious because I directly experience it, but I can’t prove to another person that I experience anything, nor can I prove to myself that anyone else experiences anything.
I know my consciousness, memory, and brain are intimately connected. I know that what people describe as a loss of consciousness on my part is strongly correlated with gaps in my memory. I know those gaps correspond to time periods when people tell me I’m unresponsive to stimuli. I even know other people become unresponsive in connection to same kinds of things that cause gaps in my memory, and they likewise describe similar experiences to mine when, say, they ingest substances that I’ve found to alter my behavior, and which feel like they alter the quality of my consciousness.
All of that is to say that we have very good reasons to suppose that consciousness (if it exists) interacts with the world of measurable phenomena all the time, and that other people experience consciousness. But what we can’t do is measure the difference between a conscious being and a p-zombie. There’s plenty of correlation, but correlation is famously not causation, and we don’t have a testable theory that would explain the causal link, or allow us to test whether, say, a cat, a tree, or an LLM is conscious.
Sure I agree it could be that as well but there is no actual way to prove that. Since we don’t actually understand what it is or how it works we can’t remove it, therefore with materialism at this point it’s not provable either way. it’s also another theory and why I started my original comment with maybe. It’s better to explore that data in my opinion then outright deny it without any actual evidence proving it’s not. Occams razor is a cop out here
There’s no way to prove that any god(s) exist or not either. It doesn’t mean we should waste our time with their explanations. The hand of God could be reaching down to set things up just in time for us to see them and that’s exactly as reasonable of an explanation as the universe is aware we’re conscious so sets things up just in time for us to see them. The explanation that requires adding the least number of new things is that interactions cause a collapse of the waveform and it happens then, not waiting for a “conscious” observer.
If the conscious observer thing were true, what would it decide is consciousness? Would it require sapience? Sentience? Does it happen for dolphins? Apes? Monkeys? Mice? Tardigrades? What level of synapse connections is it waiting for to decide that’s enough? What about humans born without a brain? Can they not see anything? This hypothesis requires so many weird assumptions that it’s less than useless. A god existing makes more sense.
Edit: Also, you can’t explore this “data” because it’s literally impossible to collect information on if you assume it exists. There’s nothing to explore. I guess you can entertain the idea and ask what you’d do differently if you assume it’s true, but I’m betting that’s literally nothing. It’s the same issue as the “universe is a simulation” hypothesis. It’s unprovable and untestable, and the only thing to do with it is assume it isn’t true and keep living life as if it’s real.
Science requires testable and verifiable hypothesis. If they can’t be falsified they aren’t a part of science. They’re a belief system. That’s fine to have, but don’t mix it with science. All you’ll do is end up not accepting more data as we learn it because you’re filtering it through faith.
If the conscious observer thing were true, what would it decide is consciousness? Would it require sapience? Sentience? Does it happen for dolphins? Apes? Monkeys? Mice? Tardigrades? What level of synapse connections is it waiting for to decide that’s enough? What about humans born without a brain? Can they not see anything? This hypothesis requires so many weird assumptions that it’s less than useless. A god existing makes more sense.
Idk why that is so hard for you to even ponder
Science requires testable and verifiable hypothesis. If they can’t be falsified they aren’t a part of science. They’re a belief system. That’s fine to have, but don’t mix it with science. All you’ll do is end up not accepting more data as we learn it because you’re filtering it through faith.
So string theory isn’t science either show me where string theory has been proven in any sort of way
I can obviously ponder it. I’ve shown that. It’s just that there’s no reason to believe it’s any more real than Harry Potter is. It may make you feel nice, but it doesn’t do anything. If consciousness can’t be defined by whoever is positing the idea then it’s not useful to consider.
So string theory isn’t science either show me where string theory has been proven in any sort of way
String theory is not really, no. It’s theoretical physics. There are experiments that were designed to test it and they all have failed. String theory is a useful mathematical model to predict some results, but it’s not more than that. It’s also almost certainly wrong, but it can still be useful. It’s also almost certainly wrong, because it fails to make new predictions that come true. It can just adapt to give the correct result after we know what it should be. It’s useful, but it doesn’t make it true.
I can obviously ponder it. I’ve shown that. It’s just that there’s no reason to believe it’s any more real than Harry Potter is. It may make you feel nice, but it doesn’t do anything. If consciousness can’t be defined by whoever is positing the idea then it’s not useful to consider.
You thought about it for a second and actually thought yeah living things having a conscience is fiction? What I don’t really know how to respond to that
If consciousness is just derived from the activity in our brain it’s not hard to assume that animals atleast are aware of their conscious being on some small way. That is most definitely more believable then god or Harry Potter.
Just because something can’t be defined yet doesn’t mean we won’t eventually be able to. But you know we gotta get there and again I am not saying these theories are right I commented on a meme.
I love what you said about string theory I would agree but you said it’s wrong and maybe this is too and maybe something useful will come out of it but maybe not.
https://philosophynow.org/issues/121/The_Case_For_Panpsychism
There is a case for even the most fundamental particles having a basic form of consciousness.
And there is studies and theories being created this is just new science and extremely hard for materialists to wrap their heads around I understand that. here are some other sources you can check out for data that I posted on another comment as well
Donald Hoffman Ted talkPapers from bernardo
And I want to finish off I do not fully believe these theories. They are that just theories just like most things in science start off and still are today.
What does it even mean for particles to have consciousness? What would that even mean for that term anymore? How can they be conscious without any ability to think? If you stretch it to particles (so essentially everything) to just say they interact with things, then the term is meaningless.
It’s similar to the god of the gaps argument. You can always push an idea into further unknowns when previous beliefs are disproven. Just because the thing that’s left can’t be disproven doesn’t mean it’s any more valid. I can make up any number of equally valid hypotheses that cant be tested, but I don’t expect you to entertain them. We don’t entertain the idea that the majority of gods exist (or, in many of our cases, any of them). If we took the time to entertain every possible idea we could have we’d sit around all day and do nothing else. There’s literally infinite ways to explain this if you allow every supernatural explanation in.
you can check out for data that I posted on another comment as well
Data means facts and statistics, not just people talking about things. The data we have is things like the double slit experiment. You can have different hypotheses to explain the data, but hypotheses themselves aren’t data. Also, pedantic, but a theory is something that’s been tested and withstood scrutiny, and a hypothesis is a potential explanation that hasn’t withstood scrutiny yet).
Edit: I was going to check out the “Ted Talk” you linked, but it’s the same two hour podcast, not a Ted Talk. That word also has a meaning, and it isn’t that. I may put it on in the background, but you really seem to be (purposefully?) using words incorrectly. If it is on purpose, please stop. It only works to slow things down.
Edit 2: This guy’s definition of an observer (which he also seems to think of as conscious and undefined in QM, but it is defined an has nothing to do with consciousness) in the video is a step in a Markov chain which is dependent on previous results, which is the definition of a Markov chain. He’s also seemingly implying a Markov chain is something fundamental, but it’s no more fundamental than any other statistical model of events.
Idk that would depend on what you believe is fundamental Fringe science baby!
Yeah, except we can do this experiment without ant consciousness aware of it even and it gets the same results. The only thing that matters is if the particle has to interact with something, because when it does it becomes a specific particle rather than a waveform. What that interaction is with does not effect the experiment in the slightest. A consciousness does not have any effect on the results of the experiment so there’s no reason to expect that the universe cares about consciousness. To the universe, consciousness is yet just another series of interaction of things that behave the same as anything else, except it happens in a pattern that we think of as thought.
Perhaps the particle is simply moving so fast that it appears as a wave but once it smacks into something it slows down enough to be observed
Btw I do not know any significances about this subject
Nope. That isn’t it. My understanding is it essentially has to do with the position being required for an interaction to happen. It exists as a waveform until some interaction (any interaction) requires the position to be finite for the interaction to take place. That collapses the waveform (aka, the likelihood for all possible positions collapses into just one possibility) and the interaction happens. It has nothing to do with speed, only the need of the position to be known to perform an interaction.
Ok but how do you actually remove consciousness from the experiment? Seriously curious because from my point of view no matter what a conscience agent has to check the results
Use a computer? I guess you could say it all collapses when an actual consciousness checks what state things are at, but that’d be a rediculous claim to make. This is where Occam’s Razor is useful. Why introduce a concept of a consciousness being required when it would function identically but be significantly stranger and more complex?
What is consciousness to the universe anyway? It’s nothing but a system of electrical impulses, and there no reason to think there’s anything physically special about it. It’s just an interesting phenomenon that happened, but fundamentally it isn’t anything special.
I’m totally in agreement that the observer effect is not caused by consciousness, but…
This is a claim unsupported by evidence. I submit to you that just as we can explain the observer effect without invoking consciousness, we can also explain cognition without it. We can’t even prove consciousness exists at all! I know I’m conscious because I directly experience it, but I can’t prove to another person that I experience anything, nor can I prove to myself that anyone else experiences anything.
I know my consciousness, memory, and brain are intimately connected. I know that what people describe as a loss of consciousness on my part is strongly correlated with gaps in my memory. I know those gaps correspond to time periods when people tell me I’m unresponsive to stimuli. I even know other people become unresponsive in connection to same kinds of things that cause gaps in my memory, and they likewise describe similar experiences to mine when, say, they ingest substances that I’ve found to alter my behavior, and which feel like they alter the quality of my consciousness.
All of that is to say that we have very good reasons to suppose that consciousness (if it exists) interacts with the world of measurable phenomena all the time, and that other people experience consciousness. But what we can’t do is measure the difference between a conscious being and a p-zombie. There’s plenty of correlation, but correlation is famously not causation, and we don’t have a testable theory that would explain the causal link, or allow us to test whether, say, a cat, a tree, or an LLM is conscious.
Sure I agree it could be that as well but there is no actual way to prove that. Since we don’t actually understand what it is or how it works we can’t remove it, therefore with materialism at this point it’s not provable either way. it’s also another theory and why I started my original comment with maybe. It’s better to explore that data in my opinion then outright deny it without any actual evidence proving it’s not. Occams razor is a cop out here
There’s no way to prove that any god(s) exist or not either. It doesn’t mean we should waste our time with their explanations. The hand of God could be reaching down to set things up just in time for us to see them and that’s exactly as reasonable of an explanation as the universe is aware we’re conscious so sets things up just in time for us to see them. The explanation that requires adding the least number of new things is that interactions cause a collapse of the waveform and it happens then, not waiting for a “conscious” observer.
If the conscious observer thing were true, what would it decide is consciousness? Would it require sapience? Sentience? Does it happen for dolphins? Apes? Monkeys? Mice? Tardigrades? What level of synapse connections is it waiting for to decide that’s enough? What about humans born without a brain? Can they not see anything? This hypothesis requires so many weird assumptions that it’s less than useless. A god existing makes more sense.
Edit: Also, you can’t explore this “data” because it’s literally impossible to collect information on if you assume it exists. There’s nothing to explore. I guess you can entertain the idea and ask what you’d do differently if you assume it’s true, but I’m betting that’s literally nothing. It’s the same issue as the “universe is a simulation” hypothesis. It’s unprovable and untestable, and the only thing to do with it is assume it isn’t true and keep living life as if it’s real.
Science requires testable and verifiable hypothesis. If they can’t be falsified they aren’t a part of science. They’re a belief system. That’s fine to have, but don’t mix it with science. All you’ll do is end up not accepting more data as we learn it because you’re filtering it through faith.
Idk why that is so hard for you to even ponder
So string theory isn’t science either show me where string theory has been proven in any sort of way
I can obviously ponder it. I’ve shown that. It’s just that there’s no reason to believe it’s any more real than Harry Potter is. It may make you feel nice, but it doesn’t do anything. If consciousness can’t be defined by whoever is positing the idea then it’s not useful to consider.
String theory is not really, no. It’s theoretical physics. There are experiments that were designed to test it and they all have failed. String theory is a useful mathematical model to predict some results, but it’s not more than that. It’s also almost certainly wrong, but it can still be useful. It’s also almost certainly wrong, because it fails to make new predictions that come true. It can just adapt to give the correct result after we know what it should be. It’s useful, but it doesn’t make it true.
You thought about it for a second and actually thought yeah living things having a conscience is fiction? What I don’t really know how to respond to that If consciousness is just derived from the activity in our brain it’s not hard to assume that animals atleast are aware of their conscious being on some small way. That is most definitely more believable then god or Harry Potter.
Just because something can’t be defined yet doesn’t mean we won’t eventually be able to. But you know we gotta get there and again I am not saying these theories are right I commented on a meme.
I love what you said about string theory I would agree but you said it’s wrong and maybe this is too and maybe something useful will come out of it but maybe not.
https://philosophynow.org/issues/121/The_Case_For_Panpsychism
There is a case for even the most fundamental particles having a basic form of consciousness. And there is studies and theories being created this is just new science and extremely hard for materialists to wrap their heads around I understand that. here are some other sources you can check out for data that I posted on another comment as well Donald Hoffman Ted talk Papers from bernardo
And I want to finish off I do not fully believe these theories. They are that just theories just like most things in science start off and still are today.
What does it even mean for particles to have consciousness? What would that even mean for that term anymore? How can they be conscious without any ability to think? If you stretch it to particles (so essentially everything) to just say they interact with things, then the term is meaningless.
It’s similar to the god of the gaps argument. You can always push an idea into further unknowns when previous beliefs are disproven. Just because the thing that’s left can’t be disproven doesn’t mean it’s any more valid. I can make up any number of equally valid hypotheses that cant be tested, but I don’t expect you to entertain them. We don’t entertain the idea that the majority of gods exist (or, in many of our cases, any of them). If we took the time to entertain every possible idea we could have we’d sit around all day and do nothing else. There’s literally infinite ways to explain this if you allow every supernatural explanation in.
Data means facts and statistics, not just people talking about things. The data we have is things like the double slit experiment. You can have different hypotheses to explain the data, but hypotheses themselves aren’t data. Also, pedantic, but a theory is something that’s been tested and withstood scrutiny, and a hypothesis is a potential explanation that hasn’t withstood scrutiny yet).
Edit: I was going to check out the “Ted Talk” you linked, but it’s the same two hour podcast, not a Ted Talk. That word also has a meaning, and it isn’t that. I may put it on in the background, but you really seem to be (purposefully?) using words incorrectly. If it is on purpose, please stop. It only works to slow things down.
Edit 2: This guy’s definition of an observer (which he also seems to think of as conscious and undefined in QM, but it is defined an has nothing to do with consciousness) in the video is a step in a Markov chain which is dependent on previous results, which is the definition of a Markov chain. He’s also seemingly implying a Markov chain is something fundamental, but it’s no more fundamental than any other statistical model of events.
One day Materialism will be rightfully recognized as cringe
You’re my favourite person in this comment section. never stop learning!