I’m not so sure. The US sure is a democratic republic by 18th century standards. But you still retain that system that makes someone win the presidency who doesn’t have the absolute majority of votes. And some of the states don’t really count in the campaigns since it’s obvious if they’re blue or red.
I’ve watched too much George Carlin. I think the system with the two parties is more to give you the illusion of having a choice. Same with the theoretical availability of ‘left’ individuals.
And I mean we have enough examples of systems suppressing people. A theoretical possibility doesn’t help if there’s no real choice. And you can keep the masses uneducated and occupied with lots of work so they don’t have time to get to power. I think that’s some of the dynamics in the USA that keep the system as is. Also, Putin also was elected somewhat democratically. It’s just that he got rid of his opposition. And the USA is more or less doing a similar thing. Just that they provide the people with a second choice, some illusion of choice that gives the people something to keep busy arguing about. In practice they both are a slightly different hue of the same color.
So on the paper, it’s a democratic system and you’d be correct arguing with me. In practice it’s deliberately set up in a way that votes can’t change anything of substance.
Even if it’s a clunky system, what I meant is it’s still an evened out system, equally fluid for everyone even if some of that fluidity manifests more often for some than others. It should also be remembered the US is a nation where the leadership is not the whole of control. To those whose complaint here is that things seem preselected against their wishes (and against mine, I want to stress I’m not implying I disagree with them policy-wise), there is still at least some element of choice before things are narrowed down to the two choices. The US is not using a “loud/might makes right” approach at the moment, just a bumpy process, which sets it apart from Russia for example which is arguably de facto quasi-feudalist.
It isn’t evened out for everyone. That’s like saying “now taxes are a flat 100k each year and it’s correct because it sucks for everyone”. When a milionaire (a party with a following) wouldn’t care, someone who is starting out (and could for instance gain 5% of the vote in this election) would get dumpstered and prevented from gaining more votes next election, since they’d be “on the board” and people would see them
When I say evened out, I mean in indication of the fact there’s a difference between having a voice (which everyone has the same amount of), everyone having differing levels of being able to have a voice, and being heard or unheard, as well as a difference between being dismissed on a fair/honest or relatively fair/honest basis (as in they’re overshadowed according to fair rules) and being dismissed unfairly as a result of certain people being prioritized by means that would rig the game. “Wealth is a prerequisite to power” isn’t the whole story and misrepresents the complexity of the process which in turn would allow more of a chance for everyone than that. Some past members of the government (of all roles, senator, governor, etc.) have been incredibly poor and largely disconnected from any wealth structure.
You wrote all that to say “politicians bad” and haven’t related to anything said above. The fact of the matter is - US isn’t a democracy. A choice between two parties with “no chance of anyone else winning” isn’t a democracy. Especially since both sides are basically the same.
How so, as in, well, all of it. You said what I said unrelatably translates to “politicians bad” while saying the US isn’t a democracy and that the two party system, which you say is the same on both sides and keeps losing peoples from winning, stunts absolutely every option. Votes keep losing peoples from winning. There was a time when the Republicans were the liberal ones and the Democrats were the conservative ones; that switcheroo doesn’t happen in a fixed game, neither do many of the things that seem to be about to happen.
If we’re to say the US isn’t, to at least some workable extent, a democracy, what would that even make Europe, who haven’t even fully stepped outside monarchist systemic principles? Depending on the country, you will find a large swath of nations in Europe (infamously Spain is like this) don’t have a glamorous working culture. Note that there is also the “customer aspect” of culture, i.e. if workers get the short end of the stick, consumers may get the long end, or vice versa.
I don’t think it’s an evened out system. It’s that on paper. I think we can agree on that. But the proper question is: Is that paper worth anything, anymore?
And is it evened out? What percentage of their salaries do lower class people pay for taxes and healtcare and the infrastructure? What percentage is it for rich people? Is there lobbyism being the biggest influence on what gets decided in politics? Who can afford that and gets their itches scratched? The big companies or the rural population? And do they even get some audience in the TV news shows, their voices heard?
As another reply said, when I say evened out, I mean in indication of the fact there’s a difference between having a voice (which everyone has the same amount of), everyone having differing levels of being able to have a voice, and being heard or unheard, as well as a difference between being dismissed on a fair/honest or relatively fair/honest basis (as in they’re overshadowed according to fair rules) and being dismissed unfairly as a result of certain people being prioritized by means that would rig the game. Certain things do surpass lobbyists, which I do acknowledge is a large force, but which, if it were the largest influence on politics, I’m sure would in turn surpass any meaning to any discussion on the two party system, another thing which I acknowledge might affect the gears (but not the outcome, if enough people of a certain opinion so willed, which is my point) of the government. There are many avenues around each blockage.
Yeah, what I mean is, sure there are some specific counterexamples far and in between. But if it weren’t for the pharma lobby, you’d spend $8.000 on healthcare instead of $14.000 per year. And you’d live 2-3 years longer on average. I think 99.9% of the population would gladly accept that. But it ruins some of the business model of the 0.1% who get to make the decisions. It’ll never happen in the USA because it’s just on the paper that the people decide. And some of them aren’t even educated enough to do so. Same thing with school shootings and other things people regularly complain about.
I’m not so sure. The US sure is a democratic republic by 18th century standards. But you still retain that system that makes someone win the presidency who doesn’t have the absolute majority of votes. And some of the states don’t really count in the campaigns since it’s obvious if they’re blue or red.
I’ve watched too much George Carlin. I think the system with the two parties is more to give you the illusion of having a choice. Same with the theoretical availability of ‘left’ individuals.
And I mean we have enough examples of systems suppressing people. A theoretical possibility doesn’t help if there’s no real choice. And you can keep the masses uneducated and occupied with lots of work so they don’t have time to get to power. I think that’s some of the dynamics in the USA that keep the system as is. Also, Putin also was elected somewhat democratically. It’s just that he got rid of his opposition. And the USA is more or less doing a similar thing. Just that they provide the people with a second choice, some illusion of choice that gives the people something to keep busy arguing about. In practice they both are a slightly different hue of the same color.
So on the paper, it’s a democratic system and you’d be correct arguing with me. In practice it’s deliberately set up in a way that votes can’t change anything of substance.
Even if it’s a clunky system, what I meant is it’s still an evened out system, equally fluid for everyone even if some of that fluidity manifests more often for some than others. It should also be remembered the US is a nation where the leadership is not the whole of control. To those whose complaint here is that things seem preselected against their wishes (and against mine, I want to stress I’m not implying I disagree with them policy-wise), there is still at least some element of choice before things are narrowed down to the two choices. The US is not using a “loud/might makes right” approach at the moment, just a bumpy process, which sets it apart from Russia for example which is arguably de facto quasi-feudalist.
It isn’t evened out for everyone. That’s like saying “now taxes are a flat 100k each year and it’s correct because it sucks for everyone”. When a milionaire (a party with a following) wouldn’t care, someone who is starting out (and could for instance gain 5% of the vote in this election) would get dumpstered and prevented from gaining more votes next election, since they’d be “on the board” and people would see them
When I say evened out, I mean in indication of the fact there’s a difference between having a voice (which everyone has the same amount of), everyone having differing levels of being able to have a voice, and being heard or unheard, as well as a difference between being dismissed on a fair/honest or relatively fair/honest basis (as in they’re overshadowed according to fair rules) and being dismissed unfairly as a result of certain people being prioritized by means that would rig the game. “Wealth is a prerequisite to power” isn’t the whole story and misrepresents the complexity of the process which in turn would allow more of a chance for everyone than that. Some past members of the government (of all roles, senator, governor, etc.) have been incredibly poor and largely disconnected from any wealth structure.
You wrote all that to say “politicians bad” and haven’t related to anything said above. The fact of the matter is - US isn’t a democracy. A choice between two parties with “no chance of anyone else winning” isn’t a democracy. Especially since both sides are basically the same.
How so?
What do you mean how so. Compare political parties in Europe, or the state of workers rights etc.
How so, as in, well, all of it. You said what I said unrelatably translates to “politicians bad” while saying the US isn’t a democracy and that the two party system, which you say is the same on both sides and keeps losing peoples from winning, stunts absolutely every option. Votes keep losing peoples from winning. There was a time when the Republicans were the liberal ones and the Democrats were the conservative ones; that switcheroo doesn’t happen in a fixed game, neither do many of the things that seem to be about to happen.
If we’re to say the US isn’t, to at least some workable extent, a democracy, what would that even make Europe, who haven’t even fully stepped outside monarchist systemic principles? Depending on the country, you will find a large swath of nations in Europe (infamously Spain is like this) don’t have a glamorous working culture. Note that there is also the “customer aspect” of culture, i.e. if workers get the short end of the stick, consumers may get the long end, or vice versa.
I don’t think it’s an evened out system. It’s that on paper. I think we can agree on that. But the proper question is: Is that paper worth anything, anymore?
And is it evened out? What percentage of their salaries do lower class people pay for taxes and healtcare and the infrastructure? What percentage is it for rich people? Is there lobbyism being the biggest influence on what gets decided in politics? Who can afford that and gets their itches scratched? The big companies or the rural population? And do they even get some audience in the TV news shows, their voices heard?
As another reply said, when I say evened out, I mean in indication of the fact there’s a difference between having a voice (which everyone has the same amount of), everyone having differing levels of being able to have a voice, and being heard or unheard, as well as a difference between being dismissed on a fair/honest or relatively fair/honest basis (as in they’re overshadowed according to fair rules) and being dismissed unfairly as a result of certain people being prioritized by means that would rig the game. Certain things do surpass lobbyists, which I do acknowledge is a large force, but which, if it were the largest influence on politics, I’m sure would in turn surpass any meaning to any discussion on the two party system, another thing which I acknowledge might affect the gears (but not the outcome, if enough people of a certain opinion so willed, which is my point) of the government. There are many avenues around each blockage.
Yeah, what I mean is, sure there are some specific counterexamples far and in between. But if it weren’t for the pharma lobby, you’d spend $8.000 on healthcare instead of $14.000 per year. And you’d live 2-3 years longer on average. I think 99.9% of the population would gladly accept that. But it ruins some of the business model of the 0.1% who get to make the decisions. It’ll never happen in the USA because it’s just on the paper that the people decide. And some of them aren’t even educated enough to do so. Same thing with school shootings and other things people regularly complain about.