Personally, I plan to vote for Biden. However, everyone has a limit. I’m not going to blame, accuse, or get upset at all towards the people that choose to abstain from voting for a presidential candidate because they cannot in good conscience vote for a person complicit in genocide. I agree with their reasoning, but I cannot in good conscience abstain and let the country fall to fascism again. Complicity in genocide is a reasonable thing for people to say they won’t vote for the “less bad” option.
This, we need to respect other peoples decisions. You’re not going to win their vote by harassing them over their refusal to do so.
Moderates need to accept that they need to play nice with liberals. Attacking us for valid reasons for not voting, or even attacking those of us who are voting for said candidate while not being quiet about our issues with said candidate is not helping.
The moderate left is genuinely working down this path towards becoming aggressive as the far right at this point. We know you’re scared that Trump’s going to get in office, but when you reach the point of harassing other people over their choices regarding voting you’re becoming just as bad as Trump’s mobs.
I think you finally made me understand. You say “moderates” but see yourself as a real leftist. So it’s a matter of ideology to you, not of cause and effect.
But it wouldn’t make you a hypocrite to acknowledge that as fucked as the US democracy is, voting against orange guy could make a material difference. If the next US election was like so many others, just one run-off-the-mill neoliberal ghoul vs another, I’d say you do you. But Trump has the very real potential to be so much worse.
Trump is racist, sexist, anti-left, and anti-lgbt, and he wants to 1. be a fascist dictator and 2. make policies that punish those he hates. And the international radical left watches with abject horror that some of you don’t vote in for the guy who wants to keep women’s rights, immigrant rights, and rights for queer people.
People like yourself remind me of corporations dumping the blame of pollution onto the masses.
It’s the same concept here. Voters should not be the final line of defense against someone like Trump. There were so many possible stop gaps prior, so many times before this that something should have been done, and yet nothing was done.
Don’t get me wrong. Some of us realize that we have no choice, but the onus should have never been on our shoulders.
People like yourself are likely grateful for Trump if you ask me. Why stop him prior to the elections if possible when you can use him to forcefully fearmonger with real threats? You enjoy being able to grab the average American liberals face and shove it in the direction of Trump and say, “Look, this is what’s going to happen. Side with me or else.” The reality is that if we had two sane candidates and the DNC candidate wasn’t to our liking, then we’d be able to look away.
You know what the international radical left really watched with abject horror? They watched our political system and its corrupt officials allow Trump to get this far to begin with all so you could pin the blame on voters.
Why stop him prior to the elections if possible when you can use him to forcefully fearmonger with real threats?
So we can start shifting the country back to the left? It took the right 70 years to pull off what they have. I honestly don’t expect “the left” to be able to reverse it in any less. You have a lot of should’s and need-to’s in you comments but not a lot of “going to” or “do’s,” I think that’s really emblematic of the issue. The other commenter is right, you see yourself as “the actual left” even though you likely don’t actually participate in the process in any real way. You essentially do not exist to pols because you don’t actually use your voice, yet you get to preach to actual progressives who are trying to change things.
You enjoy being able to grab the average American liberals face and shove it in the direction of Trump and say, “Look, this is what’s going to happen. Side with me or else.”
Yeah, I love trying to explain basic civics to the terminally online and apathetic.
The reality is that if we had two sane candidates and the DNC candidate wasn’t to our liking, then we’d be able to look away.
I agree, unfortunately mobilizing the base (that’s you) to actually push for these changes is difficult. “The left” is plagued by in-fighting and it’s difficult to get them to agree on a goal much less the means to accomplish it. A couple states have implemented RCV and more are becoming aware of it. Organizers have pretty decent luck pushing things at a state-level if they can get their positions before the people but of course the right has every motivation to just maintain the status quo.
You have a lot of should’s and need-to’s in you comments but not a lot of “going to” or “do’s,” I think that’s really emblematic of the issue. The other commenter is right, you see yourself as “the actual left” even though you likely don’t actually participate in the process in any real way. You essentially do not exist to pols because you don’t actually use your voice,
You took the time to dig through my post history, so clearly you’d know I have intentions of voting, that I have voted before, and that I don’t simply vote in big elections, but rather at various different levels. I’m trying just as hard as you are, I’m just more understanding of those that aren’t, and I’m not defending all of my preferred candidates choices.
But hey, reading is difficult. Easier to come online and be an asshole.
I simply have more understanding of the general voting base. I’m not out of touch. Maybe if the moderates were capable of such they could convince people to vote.
Also do some self-reflection. You need it with the amount of hypocrisy you just blatantly dropped.
Only the respect they deserve and not a jot more. Those that paralyze themselves over absolute morality will get none should things get worse. Largely ignored should things stay the same or get slightly better. Because they were of no help to anyone, not even themselves.
Sure, and you will understand when I say that this is an incredibly privileged position, and is a direct reason why abortion is no longer considered a fundamental human right in the US.
As long as you are willing to accept that moral liability then we are cool.
You apparently have Biden confused with Netanyahu. Biden has been trying to get Bibi to stop his “over the top” response from the start. Now there is a risk of a regional conflict which would be really, really bad. Biden set conditions today.
If Israel suffers another October 7th after Biden withdraws aid, that’s the end of Biden. He must toe the line between continuing to support Israel’s defense while preventing their egregious offensive actions.
That being said just today Biden and Blinken publicly noted that they are now considering conditioning aid.
Israel is talking about invading Rafah and civilians are saying that the IDF is already there. I do not give a fuck about an imaginary hypothetical. Biden needs to stop providing offensive weaponry to the IDF and the settlers.
Oh now they are at least considering putting a condition on the aid… like what we do with Ukraine. Well as long as he keeps giving us words i am sure we can forgive the continual lack of action.
Its also good that we can hand wave genocide as long as it helps Biden in the election! I was worried that i would have to not vote for Biden because of my moral compass. I guess the blood will be on the hands of the disenfranchised voters if Biden loses. And that Israeli lives are worth more then Palestinian. Glad you cleared that up. /s
Hahaha oh please, if this isn’t the biggest form of grandstanding meets concern-trolling I’ve seen in a long time… Spare me this armchair expert analysis from a position of comfort and doing substantively nothing.
But do contact the White House with your genius insight. I’m sure you’ve totally evaluated all aspects of this decision-making and totally aren’t missing variables, Mr.Dunning-Kruger. ;)
Like wise to you! We have every right to criticize Biden, and it’s our civic duty to do so and to vote as we will. Maybe next time we be allowed to strategically vote in order to get representation, oh but not this time because trump is the opponent, as if there isn’t a line of stooges in the republicans party waiting for him to die to co-opt his nationalistic hate mob.
As a matter of fact, the way i see it, if the democrats lose this election because they disenfranchised the voters, this would be a huge incentive to have an actual left candidate after the next 4 trump years. Which would benefit me in the long term. Otherwise we will be stuck in the “you can’t vote for who you want, if you don’t vote for the slightly less evil candidate, democracy will die” hole forever. And always shifting right in the process.
You seem to believe that progress and maintenance of the status-quo can easily remedy the damage done by a legitimate fascist regime as seen in the Trump party. Even if you got your dream candidate in after another 4 years of Trump, they wouldn’t be able to reverse the damage done – simply due to entropy, and quite possibly due to the fact that our Democratic system would be completely broken after another 4 years. I don’t see any evidence whatsoever that there is anyone who can rally the Trump cult base who has affixed themselves to his personality. DeSantis was supposed to be a more finely-groomed copy of Trump and he failed miserably. Republicans hitched their wagon to Trump and with him goes the party for better or worse.
By all means, try to influence Biden to further action. However the calculus is pretty simple:
If your goal is to minimize genocide, both in Palestine and Ukraine.
If your goal is to ensure that we don’t fall further into fascism.
If the choices on the ballot in November are a constant, regardless of anything else that happens.
If you understand the nature of entropy in that maintaining let alone building-upon a trillion-piece puzzle is exceedingly more taxing than smashing it.
If other guy is significantly-worse for Ukrainians, Palestinians, US, and the World.
If you understand the mathematical trend of FPTP and the Spoiler Effect.
… Then one understands the logical choice is voting for Biden and doing anything else from not voting, voting Republican, voting 3rd-party, writing-in – is utterly self-defeating and short-sighted to the aforementioned goals.
If you don’t understand these things, then yes, one might have built their ardent beliefs atop a house of cards.
Of course if Biden gets ahead of the polls, pulls aid too quickly, he risks jeopordizing the votes of nearly 7 million Jewish-American voters who still strongly support Israel. He risks losing independents who 1/3 side with Israel and 1/3 are undecided on whether Israel is going too far. So until you and I can convince THOSE people that what Israel is doing is wrong, then it’s natural for Biden’s team to be wary of losing those critical votes (who dwarf the Muslim population and dwarf the progressive population).
biden will push us further into fascism just as he has for the past 50 years. voting for him does not, in fact, ensure we don’t fall further into fascism.
i can believe the other guy is worse without believing its moral to help biden maintain power.
You say entropy dictates that the perfect candidate will not achieve leftward momentum. And you offer me… entropy in its stead. Great. By that logic there is no winning out come, just a march into tyranny, in which i get to decide the speed at which we fall! How delightful. If that is the case, then we should just cut to the chase and get on with the Revolution. Its better done sooner rather than later wile we still have some freedoms and the highest chance at success! And if it fails, then we have the result of the current trajectory anyways.
Or we can wrestle control of the Democratic Party. Start shifting that window heading back to the left.
And by “complicit in genocide” you mean “navigating a delicate geopolitical situation by being a serious voice of restraint from the start?”
I swear, the singular thing which enables this nonsense on the internet is that these people know they will never have to actually lead or be held accountable for their outrageous policy positions as long as they continue to hold onto the privilege of their own armchairs.
Sending billions in weapons and money, and vetoing ceasefire resolutions helps the genocide along a lot more than talking to Bibi has stopped or even slowed it down at all. Actions are stronger than words. Poll numbers seem to only be the only thing that had pushed him to take this more seriously, too.
Personally, I plan to vote for Biden. However, everyone has a limit. I’m not going to blame, accuse, or get upset at all towards the people that choose to abstain from voting for a presidential candidate because they cannot in good conscience vote for a person complicit in genocide. I agree with their reasoning, but I cannot in good conscience abstain and let the country fall to fascism again. Complicity in genocide is a reasonable thing for people to say they won’t vote for the “less bad” option.
That’s fine, but those people cannot complain about trump if he wins
fair.
blame, accuse get upset? no. present them with information and ask to please reconsider for the sake of their neighbors’ safety? yea.
I’ll do the blaming, accusing, and getting upset part.
This, we need to respect other peoples decisions. You’re not going to win their vote by harassing them over their refusal to do so.
Moderates need to accept that they need to play nice with liberals. Attacking us for valid reasons for not voting, or even attacking those of us who are voting for said candidate while not being quiet about our issues with said candidate is not helping.
The moderate left is genuinely working down this path towards becoming aggressive as the far right at this point. We know you’re scared that Trump’s going to get in office, but when you reach the point of harassing other people over their choices regarding voting you’re becoming just as bad as Trump’s mobs.
I think you finally made me understand. You say “moderates” but see yourself as a real leftist. So it’s a matter of ideology to you, not of cause and effect.
But it wouldn’t make you a hypocrite to acknowledge that as fucked as the US democracy is, voting against orange guy could make a material difference. If the next US election was like so many others, just one run-off-the-mill neoliberal ghoul vs another, I’d say you do you. But Trump has the very real potential to be so much worse.
Trump is racist, sexist, anti-left, and anti-lgbt, and he wants to 1. be a fascist dictator and 2. make policies that punish those he hates. And the international radical left watches with abject horror that some of you don’t vote in for the guy who wants to keep women’s rights, immigrant rights, and rights for queer people.
People like yourself remind me of corporations dumping the blame of pollution onto the masses.
It’s the same concept here. Voters should not be the final line of defense against someone like Trump. There were so many possible stop gaps prior, so many times before this that something should have been done, and yet nothing was done.
Don’t get me wrong. Some of us realize that we have no choice, but the onus should have never been on our shoulders.
People like yourself are likely grateful for Trump if you ask me. Why stop him prior to the elections if possible when you can use him to forcefully fearmonger with real threats? You enjoy being able to grab the average American liberals face and shove it in the direction of Trump and say, “Look, this is what’s going to happen. Side with me or else.” The reality is that if we had two sane candidates and the DNC candidate wasn’t to our liking, then we’d be able to look away.
You know what the international radical left really watched with abject horror? They watched our political system and its corrupt officials allow Trump to get this far to begin with all so you could pin the blame on voters.
So we can start shifting the country back to the left? It took the right 70 years to pull off what they have. I honestly don’t expect “the left” to be able to reverse it in any less. You have a lot of should’s and need-to’s in you comments but not a lot of “going to” or “do’s,” I think that’s really emblematic of the issue. The other commenter is right, you see yourself as “the actual left” even though you likely don’t actually participate in the process in any real way. You essentially do not exist to pols because you don’t actually use your voice, yet you get to preach to actual progressives who are trying to change things.
Yeah, I love trying to explain basic civics to the terminally online and apathetic.
I agree, unfortunately mobilizing the base (that’s you) to actually push for these changes is difficult. “The left” is plagued by in-fighting and it’s difficult to get them to agree on a goal much less the means to accomplish it. A couple states have implemented RCV and more are becoming aware of it. Organizers have pretty decent luck pushing things at a state-level if they can get their positions before the people but of course the right has every motivation to just maintain the status quo.
You took the time to dig through my post history, so clearly you’d know I have intentions of voting, that I have voted before, and that I don’t simply vote in big elections, but rather at various different levels. I’m trying just as hard as you are, I’m just more understanding of those that aren’t, and I’m not defending all of my preferred candidates choices.
But hey, reading is difficult. Easier to come online and be an asshole.
I simply have more understanding of the general voting base. I’m not out of touch. Maybe if the moderates were capable of such they could convince people to vote.
Also do some self-reflection. You need it with the amount of hypocrisy you just blatantly dropped.
People like myself? Like anarchists? Who don’t live in the US?
Why would we be “grateful for Trump”
You missed the point.
Anyways, I had no idea you weren’t from this country. It’s a bit hard to tell with how passionate you are about our politics.
Only the respect they deserve and not a jot more. Those that paralyze themselves over absolute morality will get none should things get worse. Largely ignored should things stay the same or get slightly better. Because they were of no help to anyone, not even themselves.
Sure, and you will understand when I say that this is an incredibly privileged position, and is a direct reason why abortion is no longer considered a fundamental human right in the US.
As long as you are willing to accept that moral liability then we are cool.
You apparently have Biden confused with Netanyahu. Biden has been trying to get Bibi to stop his “over the top” response from the start. Now there is a risk of a regional conflict which would be really, really bad. Biden set conditions today.
Actions speak louder than words. Circumventing congress to deliver $18B worth of 2000lb bombs and F15s says a lot more than his words.
If Israel suffers another October 7th after Biden withdraws aid, that’s the end of Biden. He must toe the line between continuing to support Israel’s defense while preventing their egregious offensive actions.
That being said just today Biden and Blinken publicly noted that they are now considering conditioning aid.
Israel is talking about invading Rafah and civilians are saying that the IDF is already there. I do not give a fuck about an imaginary hypothetical. Biden needs to stop providing offensive weaponry to the IDF and the settlers.
Oh now they are at least considering putting a condition on the aid… like what we do with Ukraine. Well as long as he keeps giving us words i am sure we can forgive the continual lack of action. Its also good that we can hand wave genocide as long as it helps Biden in the election! I was worried that i would have to not vote for Biden because of my moral compass. I guess the blood will be on the hands of the disenfranchised voters if Biden loses. And that Israeli lives are worth more then Palestinian. Glad you cleared that up. /s
Hahaha oh please, if this isn’t the biggest form of grandstanding meets concern-trolling I’ve seen in a long time… Spare me this armchair expert analysis from a position of comfort and doing substantively nothing.
But do contact the White House with your genius insight. I’m sure you’ve totally evaluated all aspects of this decision-making and totally aren’t missing variables, Mr.Dunning-Kruger. ;)
Like wise to you! We have every right to criticize Biden, and it’s our civic duty to do so and to vote as we will. Maybe next time we be allowed to strategically vote in order to get representation, oh but not this time because trump is the opponent, as if there isn’t a line of stooges in the republicans party waiting for him to die to co-opt his nationalistic hate mob.
As a matter of fact, the way i see it, if the democrats lose this election because they disenfranchised the voters, this would be a huge incentive to have an actual left candidate after the next 4 trump years. Which would benefit me in the long term. Otherwise we will be stuck in the “you can’t vote for who you want, if you don’t vote for the slightly less evil candidate, democracy will die” hole forever. And always shifting right in the process.
You seem to believe that progress and maintenance of the status-quo can easily remedy the damage done by a legitimate fascist regime as seen in the Trump party. Even if you got your dream candidate in after another 4 years of Trump, they wouldn’t be able to reverse the damage done – simply due to entropy, and quite possibly due to the fact that our Democratic system would be completely broken after another 4 years. I don’t see any evidence whatsoever that there is anyone who can rally the Trump cult base who has affixed themselves to his personality. DeSantis was supposed to be a more finely-groomed copy of Trump and he failed miserably. Republicans hitched their wagon to Trump and with him goes the party for better or worse.
By all means, try to influence Biden to further action. However the calculus is pretty simple:
… Then one understands the logical choice is voting for Biden and doing anything else from not voting, voting Republican, voting 3rd-party, writing-in – is utterly self-defeating and short-sighted to the aforementioned goals.
If you don’t understand these things, then yes, one might have built their ardent beliefs atop a house of cards.
Of course if Biden gets ahead of the polls, pulls aid too quickly, he risks jeopordizing the votes of nearly 7 million Jewish-American voters who still strongly support Israel. He risks losing independents who 1/3 side with Israel and 1/3 are undecided on whether Israel is going too far. So until you and I can convince THOSE people that what Israel is doing is wrong, then it’s natural for Biden’s team to be wary of losing those critical votes (who dwarf the Muslim population and dwarf the progressive population).
biden will push us further into fascism just as he has for the past 50 years. voting for him does not, in fact, ensure we don’t fall further into fascism.
i can believe the other guy is worse without believing its moral to help biden maintain power.
the spoiler effect is story telling.
You say entropy dictates that the perfect candidate will not achieve leftward momentum. And you offer me… entropy in its stead. Great. By that logic there is no winning out come, just a march into tyranny, in which i get to decide the speed at which we fall! How delightful. If that is the case, then we should just cut to the chase and get on with the Revolution. Its better done sooner rather than later wile we still have some freedoms and the highest chance at success! And if it fails, then we have the result of the current trajectory anyways.
Or we can wrestle control of the Democratic Party. Start shifting that window heading back to the left.
And by “complicit in genocide” you mean “navigating a delicate geopolitical situation by being a serious voice of restraint from the start?”
I swear, the singular thing which enables this nonsense on the internet is that these people know they will never have to actually lead or be held accountable for their outrageous policy positions as long as they continue to hold onto the privilege of their own armchairs.
Sending billions in weapons and money, and vetoing ceasefire resolutions helps the genocide along a lot more than talking to Bibi has stopped or even slowed it down at all. Actions are stronger than words. Poll numbers seem to only be the only thing that had pushed him to take this more seriously, too.