You got me on the campaign promise thing. The only thing he really promised was that he was not trump, and i can’t say he didn’t deliver. A more correct statement is that he refuses to do what i need from the dnc and was one of the worst of the lot as a democratic candidate for his first presidency.
As for the 2016 Clinton debacle. Yes that did indeed more than suck. It is greatly distressing that the dnc didn’t take the hint. But it was not the disenfranchised voters fault the democrats lost that, the dnc was decidedly uninterested in appealing to their left leaning base. They thought, like you declare, that the voter has no real choice. Turns out, they did. That’s on the dnc and Clinton and we all are going to be paying for that for ever.
Saying that not voting for the dnc will ultimately help the republicans is not some secret or unknown. Bringing it up is wholly missing the point and a distraction. It will never ever change anyone’s hearts or make them forget our part in a genocide. Right now before the election it the time for people to air their grievances in the hope that the dnc will pull their head out of their assess. And you are stifling this process at all our peril.
And do you really believe that the dnc will change without leverage? Seems to me that just like the last forever times nothing will happen once the heats off. There is a threat that the dnc is losing the hearts of their base and it will cost them power. Next election they will just hold some other republicans as the bogey man and you will say the exact same thing.
In 2016, I would have kept quiet about the moral liberal who wanted to protest with their vote, or wanted to gamble with an unknown quantity (Trump) vs a known quantity (Clinton).
8 years later I am not going to sit around and listen to people make the same mistake. Does Biden suck? Yes. Is he as bad as Clinton? IMO, no! Would our country as well as the world be worse off with (at least) 4 more years of Trump? Absolutely!
You’re not going to change the DNC with a protest vote. Fact is, protest voting didn’t make a difference in 2016, and it won’t make a difference in 2024 either. It will only backfire spectacularly like it did in 2016.
And do you really believe that the dnc will change without leverage?
I don’t believe the DNC will change until actual progressives are elected. Ensuring Trump gets his 2nd/3rd term will not change the DNC. It will only make them panic and elect another “safe” candidate.
Next election they will just hold some other republicans as the bogey man and you will say the exact same thing.
If you are implying that Trump is just a “bogey man” that is being used to scare Democrats, that is just wrong. He is a known entity that has already done damage and has already promised more damage.
As for next time? I’m going to join forces with people like you and get behind whatever progressive democrat I believe can win. And if the DNC (voters) back Biden 2.0, I will vote for the lesser of 2 evils and hope and dream for a better 2032!
First of all, whether or not you are quiet makes no difference. You are not making an argument. You are stating an ultimatum and the part i have issue with is laying the blame of everything on those who do not vote as you do. That blame rests squarely on the dnc for not compromising with their base.
If the dnc will not change to maintain a cohesive voting block, then they might lose power, and not being relevant is a choice i guess. Either there will be enough disenfranchised voters or there won’t be. If they refuse to learn the lesson they were so soundly taught in 2016, then so be it.
By saying trump is a bogey man, i am not saying that he is harmless. I am saying that he is held as so terrible by the dnc that they have told their base that they have no choice but to vote for their pro establishment right wing candidates so they can enrich themselves more, or else we get the trump again. It’s what you buy into when you blame trump winning and everything he did on the frustrated voter who does not step in line. And when trump dies, there will be another person just as evil but not as stupid as trump in the next election to force the exact same candidate choice on us. Thats the dnc’s choice.
I also do not believe you about voting for a more progressive candidate next time. Why? Because on the result of this primary, you are already throwing blame on disenfranchised voters for not falling in line, on a vote that did nothing but show the dnc how the left feel about Biden. You are using your ultimatum to silence people who are putting forward legitimate grievances months before the vote.
So yea i think you are lying. But it’s your vote so, what ever. What happens next is up to the dnc, not either of us.
I’m not “blaming” anybody. If you are ok with “sending a message to the DNC” BY electing Trump again, that is your prerogative. But don’t act like there are more than 2 options this election cycle. There’s not. Trump wins, or Biden wins. Periodt.
I personally believe Trump would be willing to spend 4 years dismantling the democracy we have and putting in its place something like what Russia has. In addition to further damaging the rights of women (of all ages) and the LGBTQ community. He has already attempted to overthrow the government once. Giving him another election win will only make him feel even more empowered.
I don’t honestly care if you believe me or not, but I have never supported Clinton or Biden in the primaries, and I would never support anybody like them in the future. The primaries and main election are 2 different things. And there has never been a candidate like Trump before, so my actions now have nothing to do with my actions before or in the future.
Lastly, I’m not silencing anybody! You can give out your grievances all you want. March in the streets, hold up signs, give speeches, create tik toks… whatever you want. But if you think protest voting is the way you’re going to “change the DNC”, then you MUST accept the consequences of that. Those being, Trump WILL win and zero change will come to the DNC.
If you think this is vote shaming or blaming, it is not! It is pointing out the consequences of someone’s actions. If pointing out the consequences makes you feel defensive, then maybe the actions are a problem. If you feel that the consequences are acceptable, then there is nothing wrong with the actions and there’s no need to complain about somebody pointing them out to you.
You just did it again. Within the next very sentence, blaming the disenfranchised voters for if trump returns to the White House.
There are a lot of options in the election cycle. And one of them is Biden not supporting a genocide. Which seems to be a large dividing point that people are talking about right now. Also to stop increasing subsidies to big oil at the same time saying we will focus on the environment. Many choices to be made. And not voting is a choice.
You say you will never support a establishment Democrat in the future, it’s just this ‘one last time’. But the reason it’s ‘this one last time’ is because of how bad trump is. Do you really think the next republican candidate is not going to be enacting the 2025 plan? There may have been few president like trump in the past but there is no shortage of them being groomed for the presidency now. the harm to democracy are the republicans planning not trumps. It will be ’one last time’ until the end of time.
This whole argument is about assigning blame. It was never questioned whether a fracturing Democratic would help the republicans. That is no shit territory. You have not added anything to the discussion by saying that. If you had said ‘the Democratic Party fracturing helps the republicans’ i would not have argued.
But its that you said ‘if you vote third party, or do not vote you are agreeing with trump and the republican party. You will be at fault for the damage they do to democracy, and the harm they cause to the vulnerable of society’ which i have a problem with. You assign the blame of a fractured democratic party on the disenfranchised, the ones abandoned by the dnc.
The real blame for the harm belongs to trump and the republicans. The fault for a splintering dnc… is the dnc. Especially after not learning their lesson after 2016. It was spelt out directly for them then. But they have other obligations.
First, there are only 2 VOTING OPTIONS. That’s all I’m talking about. Yes, the world has an infinite number of options. Biden can resign today. That’s an option. But when you vote there are only 2 options, it is Trump or Biden. You can do a protest vote, but that is literally no different than voting FOR Trump. Maybe you get some warm and fuzzies that convinces you that you did something good. I hope you enjoy those warm and fuzzies cause that will be the only tangible thing you got from that protest vote. It happened in 2000 and 2016.
I guess I should say that this only applies to voters in the 7 swing states. Everybody else can protest vote to their hearts content. Their vote doesn’t matter.
Second, I don’t know what you think I said that is me blaming anybody. Is me telling you my opinion what you consider blame? I’m telling you my rationale for my personal decisions. If you disagree with that rationale, that is fine.
Maybe you think pointing out the consequences of your own actions equates to blame. If you are OK with the consequences of your own actions, then good. Enjoy those consequences blame free! Don’t come at me because I am questioning whether you truly are ok with the consequences of your own actions. Your defensiveness tells me you are not OK with it.
You say you will never support a establishment Democrat in the future
I never said I wouldn’t support the establishment candidate. I wouldn’t and won’t in the primaries. When it comes to the main election, I will decide based on the opponent.
There may have been few president like trump in the past but there is no shortage of them being groomed for the presidency now.
There has NEVER been somebody like Trump! You have to recognize that. This isn’t democrats being dramatic like they were towards Mitt Romney. Or even like they were in 2016. This is a guy that already stripped us of our rights and tried to overthrow the government! This isn’t a boogeyman!
If the republicans think they can continue to follow the Trump plan and groom Trump like candidates, then I believe it is more important to send a message to the RNC that that won’t work.
Now, that is MY opinion. If you think it’s more important to send a message to the DNC, then that is YOUR opinion. Identifying a difference of opinions is not me blaming you for your opinion. I get that you are feeling conflicted, and me pointing out the facts makes that conflict harder to deal with, but pointing out the facts is not blame either.
Actually it’s different from voting for trump for the reasons i stated, you may not like it, but quite literally a vote for trump is the only case where someone can say they are voting for trump.
Don’t know why you are mad at protest voters and non voters, you really should be upset at the dnc. And by the way i don’t live in a swing state, you can blame the dnc for crushing voting reform wile you are at it for rendering most people vote moot either way.
And yes quite literally when you say that a protest vote is a vote FOR trump and its their fault what ever happens, is in fact blaming them. And you will never in a million years convince someone to do anything different by telling them false equivalence and assigning false blame when they know better.
There is no way for left voters to send a message to the republicans, people who are upset at the democrats and are either not voting or voting third party never would have voted Republican anyways
There has been presidents in the past who tried and succeeded in abusing the power of the presidency for political and monetary gain, there have been populous candidates before. The big difference now it’s the party as a whole making overt moves to disassemble democracy. Trump is not the cause, he’s the symptom is what i am getting at. And only because of his cartoonishly transparent idiocy was the rnc’s plans put at risk. A mistake they will not make once trump is out of the picture.
If the dnc will not make concessions then i see no hope for the future of the nation. You can have your opinion, and blame who you want, but don’t pretend you aren’t.
I’m not talking about Biden or the DNC or society as a whole. I am talking about an individual voter in a voting booth taking an action. You have two possible actions that you, as an individual, can take. Neither one of these actions have a desirable consequence.
You can vote for Biden. The effect of this action is that this will help Biden to continue to be president and the DNC will feel validated in however it is that they’ve carried themselves in the past. Maybe the RNC will end there MAGA obsession, but probably not. The next 4 years will likely be the same as the last 4 years.
The other action you can take is to not vote for Biden. The effect of this action is that this will help Trump get elected. We have 4 years of evidence to know what he’s capable of and can only guess what 4 more may look like. The DNC may realize they need to make changes to appeal to the more liberal voters and if Trump doesn’t dismantle our democracy, in 2028 they will hopefully put up a better candidate.
Whatever action you take in the voting booth will have a consequence. If you take the first, nobody is blaming you for the negatives that come from another Biden term. And if you choose the seconds, nobody is blaming you for the consequences of another Trump term. The actions you take are your own, and it is up to you to weigh the consequences.
I am merely pointing out the consequences and identifying which I personally think is best. You’re more than welcome to disagree with that opinion, but acting like I am attacking you is disingenuous. You personally have 2 options, and both have consequences. I’m sorry that both of the consequences suck, but that is America.
If you want to talk about the actions of Biden or Trump or the DNC or society as a whole, that’s an entirely different conversation. The only thing I am talking about is your actions as a voter and their consequences. Or more specifically, the actions of voters in one of the 7 magical states that get to choose our president.
They already know this, and these posts do nothing but demonize people who for one reason or another are unhappy at the situation and have one singular part to play. This is not winning them over. This is only affirming everyone’s already made decisions one way, or the other.
You got me on the campaign promise thing. The only thing he really promised was that he was not trump, and i can’t say he didn’t deliver. A more correct statement is that he refuses to do what i need from the dnc and was one of the worst of the lot as a democratic candidate for his first presidency.
As for the 2016 Clinton debacle. Yes that did indeed more than suck. It is greatly distressing that the dnc didn’t take the hint. But it was not the disenfranchised voters fault the democrats lost that, the dnc was decidedly uninterested in appealing to their left leaning base. They thought, like you declare, that the voter has no real choice. Turns out, they did. That’s on the dnc and Clinton and we all are going to be paying for that for ever.
Saying that not voting for the dnc will ultimately help the republicans is not some secret or unknown. Bringing it up is wholly missing the point and a distraction. It will never ever change anyone’s hearts or make them forget our part in a genocide. Right now before the election it the time for people to air their grievances in the hope that the dnc will pull their head out of their assess. And you are stifling this process at all our peril.
And do you really believe that the dnc will change without leverage? Seems to me that just like the last forever times nothing will happen once the heats off. There is a threat that the dnc is losing the hearts of their base and it will cost them power. Next election they will just hold some other republicans as the bogey man and you will say the exact same thing.
In 2016, I would have kept quiet about the moral liberal who wanted to protest with their vote, or wanted to gamble with an unknown quantity (Trump) vs a known quantity (Clinton).
8 years later I am not going to sit around and listen to people make the same mistake. Does Biden suck? Yes. Is he as bad as Clinton? IMO, no! Would our country as well as the world be worse off with (at least) 4 more years of Trump? Absolutely!
You’re not going to change the DNC with a protest vote. Fact is, protest voting didn’t make a difference in 2016, and it won’t make a difference in 2024 either. It will only backfire spectacularly like it did in 2016.
I don’t believe the DNC will change until actual progressives are elected. Ensuring Trump gets his 2nd/3rd term will not change the DNC. It will only make them panic and elect another “safe” candidate.
If you are implying that Trump is just a “bogey man” that is being used to scare Democrats, that is just wrong. He is a known entity that has already done damage and has already promised more damage.
As for next time? I’m going to join forces with people like you and get behind whatever progressive democrat I believe can win. And if the DNC (voters) back Biden 2.0, I will vote for the lesser of 2 evils and hope and dream for a better 2032!
First of all, whether or not you are quiet makes no difference. You are not making an argument. You are stating an ultimatum and the part i have issue with is laying the blame of everything on those who do not vote as you do. That blame rests squarely on the dnc for not compromising with their base.
If the dnc will not change to maintain a cohesive voting block, then they might lose power, and not being relevant is a choice i guess. Either there will be enough disenfranchised voters or there won’t be. If they refuse to learn the lesson they were so soundly taught in 2016, then so be it.
By saying trump is a bogey man, i am not saying that he is harmless. I am saying that he is held as so terrible by the dnc that they have told their base that they have no choice but to vote for their pro establishment right wing candidates so they can enrich themselves more, or else we get the trump again. It’s what you buy into when you blame trump winning and everything he did on the frustrated voter who does not step in line. And when trump dies, there will be another person just as evil but not as stupid as trump in the next election to force the exact same candidate choice on us. Thats the dnc’s choice.
I also do not believe you about voting for a more progressive candidate next time. Why? Because on the result of this primary, you are already throwing blame on disenfranchised voters for not falling in line, on a vote that did nothing but show the dnc how the left feel about Biden. You are using your ultimatum to silence people who are putting forward legitimate grievances months before the vote.
So yea i think you are lying. But it’s your vote so, what ever. What happens next is up to the dnc, not either of us.
I’m not “blaming” anybody. If you are ok with “sending a message to the DNC” BY electing Trump again, that is your prerogative. But don’t act like there are more than 2 options this election cycle. There’s not. Trump wins, or Biden wins. Periodt.
I personally believe Trump would be willing to spend 4 years dismantling the democracy we have and putting in its place something like what Russia has. In addition to further damaging the rights of women (of all ages) and the LGBTQ community. He has already attempted to overthrow the government once. Giving him another election win will only make him feel even more empowered.
I don’t honestly care if you believe me or not, but I have never supported Clinton or Biden in the primaries, and I would never support anybody like them in the future. The primaries and main election are 2 different things. And there has never been a candidate like Trump before, so my actions now have nothing to do with my actions before or in the future.
Lastly, I’m not silencing anybody! You can give out your grievances all you want. March in the streets, hold up signs, give speeches, create tik toks… whatever you want. But if you think protest voting is the way you’re going to “change the DNC”, then you MUST accept the consequences of that. Those being, Trump WILL win and zero change will come to the DNC.
If you think this is vote shaming or blaming, it is not! It is pointing out the consequences of someone’s actions. If pointing out the consequences makes you feel defensive, then maybe the actions are a problem. If you feel that the consequences are acceptable, then there is nothing wrong with the actions and there’s no need to complain about somebody pointing them out to you.
You just did it again. Within the next very sentence, blaming the disenfranchised voters for if trump returns to the White House.
There are a lot of options in the election cycle. And one of them is Biden not supporting a genocide. Which seems to be a large dividing point that people are talking about right now. Also to stop increasing subsidies to big oil at the same time saying we will focus on the environment. Many choices to be made. And not voting is a choice.
You say you will never support a establishment Democrat in the future, it’s just this ‘one last time’. But the reason it’s ‘this one last time’ is because of how bad trump is. Do you really think the next republican candidate is not going to be enacting the 2025 plan? There may have been few president like trump in the past but there is no shortage of them being groomed for the presidency now. the harm to democracy are the republicans planning not trumps. It will be ’one last time’ until the end of time.
This whole argument is about assigning blame. It was never questioned whether a fracturing Democratic would help the republicans. That is no shit territory. You have not added anything to the discussion by saying that. If you had said ‘the Democratic Party fracturing helps the republicans’ i would not have argued.
But its that you said ‘if you vote third party, or do not vote you are agreeing with trump and the republican party. You will be at fault for the damage they do to democracy, and the harm they cause to the vulnerable of society’ which i have a problem with. You assign the blame of a fractured democratic party on the disenfranchised, the ones abandoned by the dnc.
The real blame for the harm belongs to trump and the republicans. The fault for a splintering dnc… is the dnc. Especially after not learning their lesson after 2016. It was spelt out directly for them then. But they have other obligations.
First, there are only 2 VOTING OPTIONS. That’s all I’m talking about. Yes, the world has an infinite number of options. Biden can resign today. That’s an option. But when you vote there are only 2 options, it is Trump or Biden. You can do a protest vote, but that is literally no different than voting FOR Trump. Maybe you get some warm and fuzzies that convinces you that you did something good. I hope you enjoy those warm and fuzzies cause that will be the only tangible thing you got from that protest vote. It happened in 2000 and 2016.
I guess I should say that this only applies to voters in the 7 swing states. Everybody else can protest vote to their hearts content. Their vote doesn’t matter.
Second, I don’t know what you think I said that is me blaming anybody. Is me telling you my opinion what you consider blame? I’m telling you my rationale for my personal decisions. If you disagree with that rationale, that is fine.
Maybe you think pointing out the consequences of your own actions equates to blame. If you are OK with the consequences of your own actions, then good. Enjoy those consequences blame free! Don’t come at me because I am questioning whether you truly are ok with the consequences of your own actions. Your defensiveness tells me you are not OK with it.
I never said I wouldn’t support the establishment candidate. I wouldn’t and won’t in the primaries. When it comes to the main election, I will decide based on the opponent.
There has NEVER been somebody like Trump! You have to recognize that. This isn’t democrats being dramatic like they were towards Mitt Romney. Or even like they were in 2016. This is a guy that already stripped us of our rights and tried to overthrow the government! This isn’t a boogeyman!
If the republicans think they can continue to follow the Trump plan and groom Trump like candidates, then I believe it is more important to send a message to the RNC that that won’t work.
Now, that is MY opinion. If you think it’s more important to send a message to the DNC, then that is YOUR opinion. Identifying a difference of opinions is not me blaming you for your opinion. I get that you are feeling conflicted, and me pointing out the facts makes that conflict harder to deal with, but pointing out the facts is not blame either.
Actually it’s different from voting for trump for the reasons i stated, you may not like it, but quite literally a vote for trump is the only case where someone can say they are voting for trump.
Don’t know why you are mad at protest voters and non voters, you really should be upset at the dnc. And by the way i don’t live in a swing state, you can blame the dnc for crushing voting reform wile you are at it for rendering most people vote moot either way.
And yes quite literally when you say that a protest vote is a vote FOR trump and its their fault what ever happens, is in fact blaming them. And you will never in a million years convince someone to do anything different by telling them false equivalence and assigning false blame when they know better.
There is no way for left voters to send a message to the republicans, people who are upset at the democrats and are either not voting or voting third party never would have voted Republican anyways
There has been presidents in the past who tried and succeeded in abusing the power of the presidency for political and monetary gain, there have been populous candidates before. The big difference now it’s the party as a whole making overt moves to disassemble democracy. Trump is not the cause, he’s the symptom is what i am getting at. And only because of his cartoonishly transparent idiocy was the rnc’s plans put at risk. A mistake they will not make once trump is out of the picture.
If the dnc will not make concessions then i see no hope for the future of the nation. You can have your opinion, and blame who you want, but don’t pretend you aren’t.
I’m not talking about Biden or the DNC or society as a whole. I am talking about an individual voter in a voting booth taking an action. You have two possible actions that you, as an individual, can take. Neither one of these actions have a desirable consequence.
You can vote for Biden. The effect of this action is that this will help Biden to continue to be president and the DNC will feel validated in however it is that they’ve carried themselves in the past. Maybe the RNC will end there MAGA obsession, but probably not. The next 4 years will likely be the same as the last 4 years.
The other action you can take is to not vote for Biden. The effect of this action is that this will help Trump get elected. We have 4 years of evidence to know what he’s capable of and can only guess what 4 more may look like. The DNC may realize they need to make changes to appeal to the more liberal voters and if Trump doesn’t dismantle our democracy, in 2028 they will hopefully put up a better candidate.
Whatever action you take in the voting booth will have a consequence. If you take the first, nobody is blaming you for the negatives that come from another Biden term. And if you choose the seconds, nobody is blaming you for the consequences of another Trump term. The actions you take are your own, and it is up to you to weigh the consequences.
I am merely pointing out the consequences and identifying which I personally think is best. You’re more than welcome to disagree with that opinion, but acting like I am attacking you is disingenuous. You personally have 2 options, and both have consequences. I’m sorry that both of the consequences suck, but that is America.
If you want to talk about the actions of Biden or Trump or the DNC or society as a whole, that’s an entirely different conversation. The only thing I am talking about is your actions as a voter and their consequences. Or more specifically, the actions of voters in one of the 7 magical states that get to choose our president.
They already know this, and these posts do nothing but demonize people who for one reason or another are unhappy at the situation and have one singular part to play. This is not winning them over. This is only affirming everyone’s already made decisions one way, or the other.