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Isnt that pretty damn suspicious? We’d rather just shut down than sell it as a going concern?
It’s obviously pretty valuable. How would we feel if say, China decided Microsoft/Google/AWS/Oracle had to sell to a Chinese company on the grounds of national security? They’d rather pull out too, despite China being a very large market too. Or what happens if other countries starts demanding the same?
Pretty sure ByteDance would rather keep their IP.
And if they sell, do they keep the rights for the other countries or it belongs to the US now?
AWS already had to effectively do this. AWS only exists in two regions in China because they licensed much of the AWS software to be run by a pair of Chinese-government affiliated ISPs inside China (that is, Amazon doesn’t run AWS in either of its China zones — it’s run by a pair of Chinese companies who license AWS’s software).
This is why the China AWS regions are often quite far behind in terms of functionality from every other region (they either haven’t licensed all the functionality, they don’t keep up-to-date at the same cadence as Amazon, or Amazon is holding certain functions back), and why you can’t really access them from the standard AWS console.
So in effect, Amazon did have to give their software to Chinese-government affiliated companies in order to continue operating in China.
How would we feel if say, China decided Microsoft/Google/AWS/Oracle had to sell to a Chinese company on the grounds of national security?
But no one is saying that ByteDance has to sell TikTok to a US company. Just divest it to an owner that is not beholden to the Chinese government and obligated to share any and all data upon request. Compared to the legal requirements that China puts on US companies operating in China, this is a pretty tame ask.
Yeah but the 5 Eyes and their friends are everywhere outside of the CCPs borders. So if they really don’t want to let the US have that algorithm, and probe the interfaces the CCP propaganda arm used to access the TikTok backend, there’s few places overall that have a reason to buy it, and can also afford it.
They don’t let our stuff operate there. It’s only fair we treat them the same.
But we aren’t them… right?
Paradox of tolerance, blah blah
To me this is the biggest thing.
I’m under no illusions that the US is pursuing this for altruistic reasons, but fundamentally I do think it’s ridiculous that China bans western competition, yet the west rolls over and allows Chinese companies, or even the Chinese government, to buy out western companies, to enter the market and compete, and to compete using massive state subsidies or slave labour that kill domestic competition.
IMO it’s entirely fair for a country to say “you’re banning our companies? Ok then we’re banning yours.”
And I do also agree that China uses the data they collect for nefarious purposes. Be it training language models so they can better track and shut down dissenting voices at home, or spreading misinformation amongst other nations. I just wish the US would also clamp down on the privacy policies of domestic companies too.
Except that is what China already does. Cloud providers with regions in China have to utilize a local partner company which gives access to the whole tech stack. It’s a reason that AWS China regions were always so far behind in service offerings to the rest of the AWS regions.
They wouldnt have to sell their IP even just the userbase and videos would be valuable enough to let someone else plug in an algorithm. Then again, i suppose this could all just be bluster.
The article talks about why they’d prefer to shut down if you take their word it. Essentially the US is such a tiny portion of ByteDances revenue, it would be more optimal to shut down then to risk the sale of their algorithm. Assuming they’re using relatively similar algorithms on Douyin, and they don’t want whoever they sell to to turn around and sell to their Chinese competition, which is where the real money is being made for ByteDance.
Bullshit, they’re bluffing at best.
Average revenue per user is a pretty common industry benchmark, and the US absolutely slaughters the rest of the world. We’re the fat, dumb, brainwashed cows the advertisers can’t get enough of.
Is that really justified, or an example of selection bias?
Does it matter to a shareholder?
Not really. It depends on what it is. There are entire games and items that aren’t available in the US, but make a killing in Asia.
Like, here’s Genshin Impact numbers from 2023.
On that game, the US comes in at 7th, is less than half of the top country (Japan) and is notably behind Switzerland.
For Tik Tok specifically, we can look at their annual reports.
Let’s look at average annual users per region. 682M in Asia Pacific, which does not include China. 192M in North America.
China’s numbers are 750M daily.
I don’t think most of their money comes from the US.
There’s a reason you couldn’t actually talk about the ARPU, and that’s because an American user is worth literally 7x more than a Chinese user on average. Which is why TikTok had a revenue of 16.1b in 2023, with a growing user base, and ByteDance’s total revenue was 40.8b.
Maybe the CCP is paying the difference?
I think it’s a gamble… Too many people love tiktok (don’t ask me why) that they know the pressure on the gov would be terrible
More importantly, a forced sale (with a time limit to boot) is bound to fetch them the worst deal ever
I think they are calling their bluff
And before anyone comes at me with some stupid fallacy, no I don’t love the Chinese government or I’m trying to imply tiktok has nothing to hide and it’s the source of rainbows and warm sweet buns
They love tiktok because the algorithm works extremely well.
No other social media actually targets you as well as tiktok does. Instagram is constantly trying to shove you in the direction of whatever makes them the most money even if it’s entirely unrelated to your interests. YouTube is clueless to what you like with shorts. Tiktok surfaces new content that is basically unseen anywhere else (thousands of views not millions) that perfectly fits your interests.
Could other platforms do the same thing? Probably: but they’re too short sighted to do so.
Good to know … I have honestly kept away from most social media after a stint in Reddit that pushed me here
I have never had a Facebook, insta, Google whatever social, tiktok, etc so I don’t really get what people like there
Yeah I’ve deleted Facebook and affiliated products since 2017.
Google social never made sense to me but even just for content YouTube does a terrible job showing me what I want to see.
Tiktok had honed in on things I found funny or interesting within an hour of picking it up. And I’m not talking mainstream sports or TV type content, I’m talking niche sub communities and creators with less than 1k followers.
Idk how they’re doing it (besides the obvious data collection) but they’ve got a well tuned algo.
YouTube was going down that route but whole terriost pipeline deal durning the hight of the war on terror put big breaks on it. TikTok doesn’t. Its actually wild how vastly different friends of mines tiktoks could be. Just all the most extreme version of anything their into. Had them all asking completely nuts things thinking it was everywhere. Like no sis I don’t about the witches that are supposed to be doing something tonight, that was just an old qanon thread with new dates, wth is boy love anime?
I don’t think “shortsightedness” is the difference. The sheer amount of privileges TikTok requires on your device speaks to Cambridge analytica levels of personal profile knowledge.
Couple that with the endless scroll, hot people doing thirst traps, flashy idiocy, flashing icons hugging the full screen image, no discernible window with controls tempting you to back out or log off…it’s the “perfect” tech product. One that’s endlessly addictive. That’s what makes tech good. They know you better than you know yourself, and they will shamelessly serve you exactly what you didn’t realize you wanted to see.
The sheer amount of privileges TikTok requires on your device
The fuck are you on about?
Tiktok has a total of 0 granted permissions from me.
By default it has the same perms as other similar apps: Google Advertising ID.
That’s it.
You can’t opt out of that: it’s Google.
If you give it a fuck load of perms that’s your fault. By default it has less access than Discord.
You’re just parroting bullshit you’ve heard elsewhere.
I’m a professional Android developer: Tiktok isn’t requesting anything strange. It asks for camera, audio, and storage access when you record a video. That’s exactly what you’d need to ask for: nothing more or less.
lol k.
I just looked it up again because you made me second guess myself. But i distinctly remembered a laundry list of permissions on the App Store. My lemmy client isn’t letting me upload he screen grabs for some reason, but the detailed tracking information took up four screenshots. So…you might wanna double check that.
Let’s play a fun game:
Which of the following 2 screenshots is TikTok’s permissions?
Is it the one that can prevent the phone from sleeping and runs at startup? The one that sends sticky broadcasts?
Or is it the one that accesses the AdId Api?
I’ll give you a hint: I already told you which one it is.
It’s the second. But the Apple App Store alerts you to it reading up browsing history, your physical address, “other user contact info” besides name, phone, email, and physical address, whatever that could mean, as well as your “other financial info” besides your payment to them, “other diagnostic data” besides crash, performance data, and app use…
Maybe this is just a matter of opinion but those few things alone are way too much. But hey, you do you.
No?
The way you are speaking it’s as if they mean to close down the whole thing. There is a whole rest of the world for them to operate in. Sure losing the US market would be a huge detriment, but the owners still might rather have it everywhere else, than keep it running in the US in someone else’s hands.
They aren’t being forced to sell their operations in the entire world, just the US. So, doesn’t it make better financial sense, if all legal options to keep control fail, that they sell their US operation to another company, and at least get billions of dollars before exit, than to just lose the market and get not billions?
They don’t want to seed a competitor with their tech.
They are going to get one when a western tech company copies them to fill the vacuum they left. Their only real advantage is their leg-up with their earlier footing. There is nothing particularly interesting in their software, it’s easy to copy, and someone likely will. If they do not get a copycat, their crowd will move on to some other thing and, being in the same industry, will still be a competitor.
They are going to get one when a western tech company copies them to fill the vacuum they left.
When? Instagram/Facebook Reels are already a blatant copy. And YouTube Shorts is trying.
They don’t want to compete with tiktok, they want them gone so they win without trying to make their own service better, which they could do, but they don’t want to change what likely ends up being a more lucrative algorithm for them if they aren’t dealing with competition. You know, American free market economics 🙄
A thing never mentioned in these debates is that noone in the world is buying tiktok without buying the underlying algorithm, the same algorithm the app runs on worldwide, the algorithm is the special sauce. They are not going to sell the basis for their app just for a single payday in the US market, which after buying it, they could rebrand and then once successful in the US, compete in the global market against tiktok but with the income of the most lucrative app market in the world behind them. It’s an extremely stupid business move.
But what if the US version becomes a different version than the rest of the world’s? What if the rest of the world wants that version and demands it?
They have a leg up, they would have to use their early footing to compete. If they go, the vacuum of their loss of presence will open a spot for an american tech company to copy them. Either way, they are going to get competition from an american tech company. Nothing they are doing is esoteric in a way that would make them hard to copy. There really is no secret sauce, so to speak, in the software. If they are doing it to hide something then then it lends credence to the US’s accusations, at least it leaves a grey area for that speculation. This gives the US a big avenue to push that they are right and everyone should be cautious of their media business.
Then they change it to match.
How does that work? 1 app 2 companies. Who will follow whom?
Makes the children screaming we are taking their toy away seem even more oblivious when the billion dollar corporation gives absolutely zero shits about losing the business.
We? Are you in congress being lobbied by Alphabet and Meta?
It’s a scare tactic. You as a customer won’t care if the business gets a new owner but if they threaten to shut down all the kids they have will start kicking and screaming to make the government dial back the decision.
I mean I’d be all fucking for it and honestly take the rest of facebook with you if you could.
Yes, but this is not the way. The US needs federal privacy laws that would regulate all these tech companies. Instead, congress shows that they don’t care about the privacy of US Americans; they just don’t trust China.
Then, in one of the biggest FUs ever to the constitution, they expand the FISA amendment.
So everyone here is probably like “please do it” but I do wonder how the general populace would react. Would people actually miss TikTok if it just disappeared?
Nope. They’d probably move to YouTube shorts or some other lower quality copy of Vine.
They’d reluctantly use Shorts or Slides if there’s no alternative, but realistically it’ll be something new. TikTok’s absence creates a vacuum that could be a huge opportunity for a new platform.
I refuse to watch any vertical short videos but if I never see that bullshit fucking moving logo ever again, I’m happier
Doesn’t pixelfed support shirt videos now?
We might even get pants videos in 2025.
What’s next? Hats? Shoes? The sky’s the limit.
Not out yet
TikTok creators I follow get miserable amounts of views on YouTube. Shorts algorithm is nowhere near as good as TT and it’s missing loads of features that make TT unique. If those creators were forced to move they’d probably go with Instagram but that’s a poor replacement too.
As a European I’m curious how TT will look like without Yanks. It’s already much more usable after it was banned in India so there’s that.
Because people who want tiktok content watch it in tiktok, and those who don’t don’t like the format in general.
If tiktok started hosting half an hour long documentaries it wouldn’t be any wonder that nobody would watch them, as the userbase doesn’t have the attention span for that and they aren’t scrolling tiktok for that type of content.
I personally have only one user whose shorts I watch, B. Dylan Hollis. And even there I would much rather prefer longer videos, but I’ll take what I can get.
I’m fairly sure that long term TikTok plans to do long form videos too and their current approach has a benefit of getting their foot in the door. No other competitor of YouTube managed to do that before.
The neat thing about TikTok algo is that that they introduce different things and fine tune it to your liking without making things stale. This means those that are there for short form videos will keep on seeing them and their flow won’t be interrupted. Those that are interested in longer ones will be presented with them. It’s already happening but UI really needs refinement as it’s kinda jarring now. It’s still much better than how YouTube is trying to force shorts on their current users though.
They are going to reels
Or, just as likely, would download some VPN and go on.
Which is in my opinion the actual goal here… The USA talks about free market and crap but usually cannot compete unless they make the rules, set the referees, start with double the money, can’t go to jail and charge triple passing go
Either tiktok becomes an American company or leaves… Ah, the free market has spoken
Either tiktok becomes an American company or leaves… Ah, the free market has spoken
People keep saying this and I’m struggling to understand where this idea is coming from. The bill isn’t saying that they have to sell TikTok to a US company. They don’t have to sell it to the US government, or an owner in the US. Just divorce the company from explicit control by the Chinese government. Currently, the government can request any data they want from TikTok and they are obligated to provided it. Similarly, business laws in China mean that the government can also push changes down into the company, like a tweak to the algorithm to influence foreign perceptions of a topic for example.
The requirements laid out in this bill are meant to break that obligation and influence. It doesn’t say who should own the company - only who shouldn’t.
Currently, the government can request any data they want from TikTok and they are obligated to provided it.
You mean exactly like all big tech in the USA?
They have get a warrent to force getting data and I know of no legal obligation for platforms to change algorithms to promote or demote content. Even the twitter files showed that twitter employees voluntarily agreed to work with federal departments, but had no obligations to
This is important for people to understand.
I’m definitely of the opinion that this sort of treatment should be applied to other companies (the actual enforcement of “wellbeing” changes) and that this act is purely selfish when other tech companies are clearly abusing their users, but I also think it’s good to at least start here. I think this sort of uneven hand is shitty, but I see why the US govt would go this route.
I just wish user health was a higher priority than healthy profits. But that’s just not the case. By a long shot.
Republicans talk of a completely free market where monopolies are free to flouish. Democrats talk of a free market with regulations to spur competition and keep the consumer safe - like from being sold only rotten meat unless they pay top dollar.
Unfortunately the American gov’t is now just a revolving door of C-level execs to plunder tax dollars for the bottom line and to fuck over they very same people generating the labor and paying the taxes.
I’m curious about the practicality. IP addresses only roughly correlate to geographic location. Are they going to geofence their app?
Obviously the app can be removed from the US app stores, but I doubt they can prevent sideloading or just using a VPN to get access to a different country’s app store. And what about all the devices that already have it installed? It’s not like it will auto-delete.
It won’t matter if there are ways to side load or circumvent, though. 99.9% of users will not be willing to be bothered with such things and the US market would effectively die for the app.
I would have thought the same if there wasn’t a counterexample right in front of me. We had some major social media blocked, and while there was a noticeable dropoff, they are nowhere near dead. Quite popular, in fact, including among children.
it’s not like it will auto-delete.
You’re probably right it won’t, but it definitely could be done by Apple and Google.
I feel like reaching into individual people’s phones and uninstalling software without their permission would be lawsuit bait.
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As I understand, using VPNs to access will be illegal in principle, and the VPNs can be on the hook for stiff penalties.
In practice, it will depend on how zealously the government plays the cat and mouse game. Kind of the same situation as with China and VPNs that bypass the Great Firewall (ironic!).
Heavy users will definitely complain for the first couple of weeks, then they’ll just move on to the next platform.
Good.
Yah yah, sure sure.
A win is a win
What’s the win here? For Facebook and cable news? Because it looks like another example of the American government strong all over the 1st amendment rights of its citizens because they don’t like what they’re taking about
The main win is banning a content recommendation algorithm that is influenced by the CCP. A secondary win is reducing consumption of short form content. A tertiary win is eliminating that God awful narrator voice.
There’s no valid 1st amendment argument here. This doesn’t ban American voices, that can continue to be shared on alternative platforms, it bans the CCP Government’s propaganda inserting itself in American media consumption.
Well said, although I think the first point is the only one that justified banning it.
Agreed 👍
Good luck to both of us, friend.
Can’t fucking wait.
Please oh please
I mean…if operating in a country meant selling your US business, you’re probably not going to say “oh gods someone please buy us 🙏”, if you want a big payout…
China should force Apple to sell to stop them of collecting Chinese people information for the US govt.
This just confirms the worst case scenario for me. This might be posturing, but it’s far more likely ByteDance can’t reveal how much command the CCP has over the data.
Well, as someone I watch online pretty much said, this could lead to other countries banning it if they don’t sell (as to whether that actually happens, I can’t say since I’m nowhere near qualified enough to make that call). I have my own reasons for hoping for a ban outside of wanting most short form content being banned because of attention span draining brain rot, but this is definitely shaping up to be an interesting development.
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Oh hey, me too
