As you all might be aware VMware is hiking prices again. (Surprise to no one)
Right now Hyper-V seems to be the most popular choice and Proxmox appears to be the runner up. Hyper-V is probably the best for Windows shops but my concern is that it will just become Azure tied at some point. I could be wrong but somehow I don’t trust Microsoft to not screw everyone over. They already deprecated WSUS which is a pretty popular tool for Windows environments.
Proxmox seems to be a great alternative that many people are jumping on. It is still missing some bigger features but things like the data center manager are in the pipeline. However, I think many people (especially VMware admins) are fundamentally misunderstanding it.
Proxmox is not that unique and is built on Foss. You could probably put together a Proxmox like system without completely being over your head. It is just KVM libvirt/qemu and corosync along with some other stuff like ZFS.
What Proxmox does provide is convenience and reliability. It takes time to make a system and you are responsible when things go wrong. Doing the DIY method is a good exercise but not something you want to run in prod unless you have the proper staff and skillset.
And there is where the problem lies. There are companies are coming from a Windows/point in click background who don’t have staff that understand Linux. Proxmox is just Debian under the hood so it is vulnerable to all the same issues. You can install updates with the GUI but if you don’t understand how Linux packaging works you may end up with a situation where you blow off your own foot. Same goes for networking and filesystems. To effectively maintain a Proxmox environment you need expertise. Proxmox makes it very easy to switch to cowboy mode and break the system. It is very flexible but you must be very weary of making changes to the hypervisor as that’s the foundation for everything else.
I personally wish Proxmox would serious consider a immutable architecture. TrueNAS already does this and it would be nice to have a solid update system. They would do a stand alone OS image or they could use something based on OStree. Maybe even build in a update manager that can update each node and check the health.
Just my thoughts
Been using KVM fir years. Works fine for me.
Look at Openshift if you’re looking for immutable, production ready Linux infrastructure. Containers are quickly replacing VMs.
I think you are looking at this wrong. Proxmox is not prod ready yet, but it is improving and the market is pushing the incumbent services into crappier service for higher prices. Broadcom is making VMware dip below the RoI threshold, and Hyper-v will not survive when it is dragging customers away from the Azure cash cow. The advantage of proxmox is that it will persist after the traditional incumbents are afterthoughts (think xenserver). That’s why it is a great option for the homelab or lab environment with previous gen hardware . Proxmox is missing huge features…vms hang unpredictably if you migrate vms across hosts with different CPU architectures (Intel -> AMD), there is no cluster-wide startup order, and things like DRS equivalents are still separate plugins. That being said knowing it now and submitting feedback or patches positions you to have a solution when MS and Broadcom price you out of on-prem.
I suppose thats the difference between Windows admins and Linux admins. Windows admins are used to click their way though things with fancy gui’s and wizards :)
I’ve been using Proxmox professionally for years now, and not once did i have s problem i could not fix myself. But i’m used to solve problems myself by “digging in deep”. Ofcourse it helps that i’ve been using Linux (mostly Debian) since 1996. There are plenty of guides around to teach how Debian works. Windows admin’s who make the switch just need to take the time to read them, watch the video’s, do the research.
The only skills we where born with are the basic survival skills. Everything else is learned along the way. So was using Windows, and so is using Linux.
But thats just my opinion :)
The problem isn’t necessarily the GUI. The problem is there are a lot of admins who don’t understand what is happening under the hood. I’ve talking to people of all ages who have no understanding of how basic things like networking work. I’ve also talked to to people of all ages that have a deep understanding of the system.
The biggest takeaway is that to be a good admin you need to understand the details. Don’t be afraid to dig in. Either dig in, move to management or both
Exactly! :)
I manage macOS, Linux AND Windows. In the end, they’re all the same. Its software that needs management.
I suppose thats the difference between Windows admins and Linux admins. Windows admins are used to click their way though things with fancy gui’s and wizards :)
That hasn’t been a thing for a decade. Any time you run into an issue or need to do something on mass you fire up PowerShell
I know plenty of Windows admins who still dont use Powershell as much as they could/should. Which i think is odd, since Powershell is so much better, but i suppose its not easy to change old ways :)
God damn Linux admins are pretentious.
Thankfully i don’t consider myself a Linux admin. So i take no offense.
I’m not sure I’m parsing your fifth paragraph correctly. Are you suggesting Proxmox is DIY and unsuitable for Production? That Proxmox is suitable for Production and those who think they can roll their own hypervisor are in for a bad time? Something else?
If you want something more appliance-like, XCP-ng is a very good option. The GUI of Xen Orchestra is also closer to vCenter in my opinion and should be easier to navigate than Proxmox.
It has a much higher barrier to entry. If they can make it easy to get on a makeshift network made of old hardware then I might look more into it. I want to use it for personal use before I even think of prod. Proxmox has been in homelabs for a while which helps quite a bit to mature the product.
It’s definitely more enterprise focused, but it’s using Linux, so there’s no reason why any old hardware couldn’t work.
The enterprise focus might make it easier for those coming from VMware in any case.
what are your thoughts on Unraid as an alternative?
Not for enterprise, but if you just need some general VM’s and docker services with good redundancy, it’s a really good product.
Hyper-V is probably the best for Windows shops but my concern is that it will just become Azure tied at some point. I could be wrong but somehow I don’t trust Microsoft to not screw everyone over.
Funny you should say this, because they are actually working on a Hyper-V stack with Intel’s Cloud Hypervisor (VMM) atop the Microsoft Hypervisor microkernel (MSHV) with support for Linux as the root partition (i.e. “Dom0”). No Windows/Azure required.
https://scholz.ruhr/blog/hyper-v-on-linux-yes-this-way-around/
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Microsoft-Hyper-V-Dom0-Linux
At this point the biggest hurdle is the microkernel being publicly released as a standalone component.
I’m going to be evaluating Nutanix and Azure Stack HCI. Proxmox just doesn’t fit in what I can find support for and admins to support it.
Are you Azure focused?
If you are an Azure shop go with Azure Stack HCI. I haven’t use it personally but I see a lost of Reddit comments about it.
Nutanix is not especially cheap, in my opinion/experience, nor is it particularly easy to manage and maintain
I managed about 4 clusters form some time and found it pretty simple. As for cost, it’s more about getting away from VMware.
I have made a comparison in recent weeks between proxmox and xcp-np/Xen Orchestra and for me proxmox is not mature enough for a work in production considering different aspects. Xcp-ng, if I see it as a solid option, especially if you pay for the Xen Orquestra subscription, which in addition to unleashing the integral management of your entire xcp-ng park, also allows you to make backups
