Would it make sense for “rhyme” to rhyme with “time”?
Or for “through” to rhyme with “two”?
@[email protected] (Si jamais je t’embête à te pinger à chaque fois que je vois le mot “sourd” n’hésite pas à me le dire.)
Na ça m’embète pas :)
I’m not sure if i understood your question right. I would said hearing the same sound doesn’t appeal me a lot however felling the rythmic drum in my body is powerful.
Ah un français !
Je me suis rendu compte en lisant les réponses que ma question c’est surtout pour ceux qui sont sourds à 100% de naissance, pas malentendants.
Mais est-ce que pour un sourd ça ferait sens que “traîne” et “mène” ça rime ? Parce que mis à part que les deux mots finissent en “ne”, est-ce que c’est “logique” que “aî” et “è” fassent le même son ?
Sourd oraliste de naissance, i manage this community [email protected] :)
Sorry i i reply ya in english as it is an english community. 😅
Well, Deaf people won’t notice it, except if they were earing because it is part of the sound culture. Or if they know how to write and which sound it does. Maybe by reading they can notice the rhymes.
For Deaf, i think the only thing that will matter there are your lips because they will try to decode it and [p] , [b] are the same sound for them. You are moving your lips the same way.
Huh, as someone who became deaf later in life, and thus still have the “internal monologue”, good question!
It’s always so interesting to me that some folks don’t have that internal monologue.
Me and my internal committee thank you for keeping yours going!
Some Deaf people can still hear, in which case rhymes would make sense.
Someone who’s never heard before probably wouldn’t get rhymes in English. But then again, someone who speaks English probably wouldn’t get rhymes in ASL.
People who can hear would have an advantage though in that they’d be able to learn ASL and pick up on wordplay (like “rhyming”) that’s used in ASL. Unless a Deaf person becomes Hearing, they may never be able to experience rhymes in spoken English.
… it’d be easier if our spelling wasn’t so darned stupid, lol
I saw a YouTube video about how a gorilla couldn’t rhyme in ASL and would rhyme in the english sounding versions which meant that the gorilla didn’t really understand ASL the same way a toddler would. Was pretty cool, had no idea rhymes existed in ASL.
our spelling isn’t stupid, it’s just what you get when you mix latin with germanic and pepper in minor influences from a dozen other language families.
I’m sure in a few more centuries, ryme and tyme will have convergently evolved to become false cognates.
I don’t get why that’s not stupid. The result of it certainly is! Haha
It also doesn’t help that spellings started to standardize at the same time the great vowel shift was happening
I wouldn’t have expected rhyming to be possible in any sign language. It strikes me as being too dependent on hearing the sounds for the rhyme to be possible. I’m no authority on any of the components here, and would be interested to know how fully always deaf ASL users can make or understand rhymes. I would expect them to be more focused on visual similarities, but I don’t know if that could translate from writing to signing.
Spoken rhymes rely on repeating a similar sound. I imagine a “rhyme” in sign language would probably involve repeating a similar gesture. The fun of rhymes is in the similarity and repetition, after all. If two (or more) signs involve making a similar pattern, it’s probably amusing to pair them together in the same way it’s amusing to pair two rhyming spoken words.
As the other commenter said, rhymes would be with visual similarities.
Linguistically, a rhyme is when two words share the same nucleus and coda. In regular terms, that’s the same ending vowel and the consonants that follow it.
In ASL, words aren’t formed exactly the same way, but do have similar components that can be used to make rhymes. Rhyming words could have the same motion, but a different shape, for example. Or the same position, but a different motion.
I don’t actually speak ASL, so I can’t be certain about what looks best as a rhyme, but I understand some of the principles.
Deaf people can’t hear. That’s what it means to be deaf 😭
I’m not sure why you’re crying, but you’re incorrect.
It is surprising to many people outside of the Deaf Community, but Deaf people can often hear. The Deaf are considered deaf once they have passed a certain decibel (dB) hearing loss. Many people who are profoundly deaf can still hear planes, dogs barking, etc. Hearing a sound does not mean that Deaf people can understand speech. A person with a significant hearing loss generally has difficulty or inability to hear speech even when aided.
https://www.gatecommunications.org/deafness
As well, people with cochlear implants are (generally?) also Deaf, but with the implant, they can hear.
Do you have a link to a more reputable site? Gate communications is an American thing.
Just look it up.
It’s like being blind: a lot of blind people can still see but not well.
Or using a wheelchair, a lot of people in wheelchairs can still stand short periods or walk short distances, but have a very short limit.
ETC
Society oversimplifies these things to be binary, but in reality they are a spectrum.
That’s not true, you can be legally deaf and still be able to hear (a bit), just like you can be legally blind and still be able to see (a bit)
Cochlear implants do exist, you know
Someone posted a ASL SLAM poetry video yesterday, and it might give some hints. This isn’t an authoritative answer, just something off-the-cuff.
When ASL is translated into English for poetry, 95% of the time it’s lost in translation. That’s why I ask the interpreters not to translate the poems. You have rhyme in the English poetry and patterns of verbal repetition. ASL is more about the movement, a visual rhyme versus an auditory rhyme.
Granted, that’s referring to ASL-native poetry versus English poetry translated to ASL. But, from that, it would seem that no, rhymes don’t make a lot of sense in the same way they do for spoken poetry assuming the person has no auditory reference for the sound of words.
I would imagine that if you went deaf after you learned to read, rhymes would continue to make sense.
if you’re talking about text, then deaf rhymes are going to in a very special category. If you ignore the pronunciation, you’re going to find all sorts of interesting rhymes here and there, but they will only work on paper. Also, a deaf poet would miss countless genuine rhymes that just happen to have messy spelling.
In other languages with a more sensible spelling system even deaf people can write poetry that could potentially be appreciated by everyone. English is such a train wreck, that deaf poetry becomes a very special case.
See also: The Chaos, by Gerard Nolst Trenité
I’m very curious about on-paper-only poems
I was unable to find anything better than The Chaos. Not really written by a deaf person, but the idea is still similar. Some parts of the poem look like they should rhyme, but when Lindy actually pronounces the words, you’ll be disappointed to find that they don’t.
Along the same lines, do deaf people compose poems in ASL? What aspect of that language plays the part of rhyme?
I seem to recall that there are rhymes in ASL, where signs for two things have similar motions/shapes/speeds.
It’s true. My sign name is the letter J, for my first name, but one moves the little finger in a circle up by the side of the head, like “Crazy J.” That stuff gets used all the time, but is not always as obvious to non-signing people.
This was such a helpful little example, thank you! Like a peek into another world.
I learned a tiny bit of ASL in college from hanging out with a few deaf people, then some more when we had kids and bought a bunch of kids’ sign language DVDs. Little kids are able to do some signing earlier than they’re able to manage speech, and I know that helped our kids to communicate when they were super young.
(You know all this, but I felt like saying it for the passers-by.) I know that a mistake hearing people often make is thinking that sign language is just a word-for-word substitution for whatever spoken language is primary where you live. It’s really a different language, grammar and all, definitely including those “combination” signs you’re talking about.
Baby signing is a really useful thing to have evolved from all this, as you are correct that young one’s can think in words much earlier than their vocal systems come on line. We’re such a weird species, to be born in such an under developed state, which development takes years, or a whole lifetime to complete. :-D
What is ballet, if not poetry for the deaf?
Treat my answer as what it is - hearsay - but the way I remember reading about it being explained, there is indeed sign-language poetry, and gestures having similar or complimentary movements were considered rhyming, which I guess also makes intuitive sense.
ASL has their own forms of rhymes or word play, since you don’t hear ASL but you see it. They’ll use similar looking signs.
or so my friend who teaches deaf kids told me when I asked them a few weeks ago.
