I’m only in my thirties. I don’t really think I had like… A huge hand in all this.
Well it can’t be the billionaires or the boomers, so it must be your fault.
This is what late stage capitalists actually believe
We should still try to do something, because it can become worse. So it’s still an actual problem to make other people believe it’s a thing…
Booillionaires.
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You’re conflating greenhouse gas emissions with particulate pollution. Particulates damage lungs and drop temperatures, but fall out of the atmosphere within a few weeks of emission into the troposphere.
CO2 accumulates, and raises temperatures.
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The stats linked above are for the sulfate emissions.
What you’re doing is trying to discourage action, and that’s not ok here.
I mean in defense of the other person. It sounds more like the argument is trying to encourage a bigger action. Like don’t just do your part, vote/participate for what actually changes things in a larger scale.
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And how many in their voting lifetime? About 25% according to that site.
Now how many were in their country? Surely a much smaller portion.
But we’re all to blame really, because we all take part in the system. The only way to escape blame is to not live. Although, to be clear, blame should not be evenly distributed here.
I dont think we are not all to blame. We are forced to be part of the system, as you mention, the only way of “escaping” the system is by not being alive. How can we be blamed for something that was imposed on us?
Are we forced to take a flight across the world and a cruise in a ginormous cruise ship every year? A lot of people do this. I totally agree that we’re forced to be part of the system, but that excuse only goes so far. A lot people go way, way, way beyond what we’re forced to do. Granted, we keep being told by the media and politicians mostly that it’s no big deal, but even what little they say already gets a lot of people riled up. Imagine what would happen if they told the full truth and told us the true extent of the measures that were required?
I dont know about you but im 36 and ive been on 1 boat and 4 planes in my entire life. And those planes flew from the uk to france.
I think the demographic for going on cruise ships is more the people over 50. amd flights every year? Well how about private jet flights multiple times a day.
We may not be helping that much but we arent the main cause of the problem. Thats the mega rich and the corporations.
Im ot shirking responsibility but it helps to aim at the root of the problem if you want to solve it.
I actually used to fly for vacation about once a year for several years before COVID, but never taken cruise. However, my feeling now is that air travel for leisure should be banned outright worldwide because it’s low hanging fruit to reduce human carbon output. This says that aviation is responsible for about 2.5% of total carbon output. Heck, ban private jets at the same time!
As much as I love to dunk on mega rich people and corporations as much anyone else, we will never handle the issue of airplane pollution if we focus only on them. There are only so many people who fly in private jets. They are vastly outnumbered by middle class people who combined take millions of flights a year. This FAA document says: “The number of passengers flown by air carriers increased by 55 percent, to 917 million in FY2022 (Section 1). This remains below the pre-pandemic (FY2019) level of 1,057.6 million passengers.” That’s around 1 billion passengers every year!
Unfortunately I couldn’t find actual figures that compare total fuel consumption of private jets vs commercial jets in aggregate, but according to this article, 1 out of every 6 flights handled by the FAA is for a private jet, and a private jet emits at least 10x more pollutants per passenger than a commercial plane. Do you see the problem? Private jets probably carry an average of 10 passengers and commercial jets probably carry an average of 200 passengers (both of these are complete guesstimates). 10 passengers x 1 flight x 10x pollutants (total: 100 pollutant units) vs 100 passengers x 5 flights vs 1x pollutants (total: 500 pollutant units). In other words, just going by these completely thrown together numbers, it would appear that commercial flights produce at least 5x more carbon in total as private flights, and I feel that I was very conservative in my estimates. I suspect that commercial airlines produce much more than 5x the pollutants of private jets in total.
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That’s an odd way to spell “what the insatiable greed of like seven corporations has done to us.”
New York times being new York times
Don’t you put that evil on me Ricky Bobby
Those 7 corporations. Would those be companies whose products we keep buying?
They have trained you all your life to blame the victims.
Who is consuming their products? I’m doing my damn best not too while striving for structural change, and I’d bet the other user is too. What about you? People taking your stance are usually the ones trying to make excuses to keep consuming mindlessly.
I’m sorry, I can’t stop using electricity or gas to go to work because I need to eat and pay rent to live. Because that’s the world those rich people made for everyone else.
Whether you do or not, other major corporations do, and while the money changes hands between a few dozen rich assholes, the planet burns and they laugh while you blame me.
You mean the products they designed to be as cheap as possible with no care on their impact on the environment, and then brainwashed the population through marketing to make us think we actually needed them?
You don’t even need to brainwash. Just make sure their wage stays at a level where their survival depends on buying the cheapest of cheap, necessity will do the rest.
Sure. And what’s is the answer? Put in a cycle lane and people apparently go apeshit
Yeah, if people really wanted, they could make their own phones and all they own by hand. These damn socialists!
“We can’t make our own phones, so there’s literally nothing we can do!”
Do you have a plant based diet, or try to reduce meat consumption to the best of your abilities?
Do you walk or take public transport when you could walk?
Do you avoid buying things you do not need?
If you answered “yes” to all that, then congratulations! You are part of a different 1%, and you are also just arguing for the sake of arguing.
If you answered “no”, then you’re part of the problem. You can pretend otherwise all you want, but you are one cog that keeps the system going. The system isn’t magical, other wordly, or some fundamental law of the universe. The system is people and their choices.
Yes, those people are part of the problem. But reality is that those people don’t need to lead the change. There are too many literal individuals involved. Tackling the problem from the head down with regulations is much more efficient.
Blaming individuals for climate change is incredibly naive. Doesn’t help anyone. No vegan will save the world. And no omnivore will destroy it.
said 8 billion people in unison
Only a handful of those 8 billions actually impact the climate on an immense scale though.
what would happen if everyone turned around and said ‘you know what, fuck companies that sell drinks in bottles i’m never going to be without my refillable bottle’ how long would coca-cola keep producing 100 billion plastic bottles a year? what would they do with them?
But if James Quincey said ‘fuck it, I’m not producing plastic bottles anymore they’re bad for the planet’ but 8 billion people said ‘oh ok, well we’re still going to regularly buy drinks in plastic bottles’ the numbers of plastic bottles being made would dip slightly but only while Ramon Laguarta rushed to spend the flood of money now coming in to scale up production at pepsi co.
Yeah to those 3.
However, I wasn’t intending to argue with someone with such a simplistic view of how the system works, anyway. If you think it’s all up to the customer and the corps nor the system have no blame in comparison, it’s just a lost cause, so sort yourself out.
If you think it’s all up to the customer and the corps nor the system have no blame in comparison
When did I or anyone else say companies and the government do not have any blame? Can you link me the comment and quote the relevant bit?
Those 7 corporations. Would those be companies whose products we keep buying?
The very first comment I replied to :). Shifting blame from the corps onto the customers. Once again, feel free to sort yourself out.
It’s not shifting blame, it’s pointing out they do not exist in isolation. You can put blame on the companies and still recognize that most people make no effort to avoid them, even when they have a choice.
I’ll add on what someone said further above:
what would happen if everyone turned around and said ‘you know what, fuck companies that sell drinks in bottles i’m never going to be without my refillable bottle’ how long would coca-cola keep producing 100 billion plastic bottles a year? what would they do with them?
But if James Quincey said ‘fuck it, I’m not producing plastic bottles anymore they’re bad for the planet’ but 8 billion people said ‘oh ok, well we’re still going to regularly buy drinks in plastic bottles’ the numbers of plastic bottles being made would dip slightly but only while Ramon Laguarta rushed to spend the flood of money now coming in to scale up production at pepsi co.
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Billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars of propaganda are just a coincidence.
And a century of research into more powerful and crushing propaganda. Just a coincidence.
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I did make the changes personally. Everything must be perfect now in the whole world! You’re welcome!
How ridiculous. We need to be honest about power.
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It would be easy to sacrifice those rich assholes in a slaughterhouse
And then others will rise to take their place. If the demand is there, someone will try to meet it. All long as the vast majority of people are not willing to make changes in their own life, then everything else is pointless, and it will all fail.
EDIT: Stealing another comment to add to this:
what would happen if everyone turned around and said ‘you know what, fuck companies that sell drinks in bottles i’m never going to be without my refillable bottle’ how long would coca-cola keep producing 100 billion plastic bottles a year? what would they do with them?
But if James Quincey said ‘fuck it, I’m not producing plastic bottles anymore they’re bad for the planet’ but 8 billion people said ‘oh ok, well we’re still going to regularly buy drinks in plastic bottles’ the numbers of plastic bottles being made would dip slightly but only while Ramon Laguarta rushed to spend the flood of money now coming in to scale up production at pepsi co.
We already are making individual sacrifices.
The problem is that the big polluters are not doing so.
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Most reasonable viewpoint, but it requires something of people, so of course it’s downvoted.
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I did make the changes personally.
Then congratulations! You are part of a different kind of 1%, and you perfectly understand what the other user is saying and are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
The reality is, most people don’t want to make any changes. You can’t change the system if the people themselves are not opening to change.
Though experiment:
Tomorrow is election day in your country. The stout environmentalists win control of the government and proceed to make the following changes:
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Carbon tax, which increases the price of gas, which itself results in an increase in shipping anything. It also directly raises the price of anything that produces carbon in its manufacture process, such as anything made of plastic.
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An end to meat subsidies - maybe even a tax on it - and an increase to subsidizing other types of farming.
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A ban on single use plastics.
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And anything else you think might be necessary.
Now the questions: How long until they get kicked out? How long until the protests and riots? How long until a new government undoes it all?
I’m assuming you’re not naive and you don’t live in a bubble. You should know the majority of people will not be fans of any of that; and with the way it usually goes and the pendulum swings, the government that follows it will be a far right one.
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Cue that “badass” bird from Kurzgesagt ‘voting with their wallet’.
Neoliberalism put us in this situation, so you know what will save us? More neoliberalism!
Show me how to stop using oil. SHOW ME.
What I, an individual, can do. And don’t say: consume less. I need to eat to live. And don’t say: vote for politicians. We’re doing that and it isn’t fast enough. So, what can an individual do to stop this? Go on. We’re all waiting.
As an individual? Not much. As a small group of co-conspirators? Nothing that can be advocated for on a public forum, but there are a few options.
Wow you’re so edgy
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So your solution is: austerity for the poors. Not for the rich. But we can slightly reduce our carbon footprint by not eating meat.
OK. This doesn’t stop climate change. This just makes life harder and less pleasurable for the majority of people. This is what the rich push.
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The West going to plant based diets would significantly cut emissions.
Nowhere near enough to matter. I mentioned wealth because the vast majority of people are not “rich”. And it’s the rich who own the corporations that make these decisions that affect the climate and how fuels are used.
I.e. you are proposing austerity for the masses that will NOT stop climate change. You are the problem as you are shilling for big business. My point is there ISN’T anything individuals can do to stop climate change. We have to hold the rich and corporate owners accountable.
There’s very little, without systemic change. But blaming the 7 companies is too easy, as well. Imagine, if you will - what happens if the 7 companies tomorrow simply say ‘you convinced us - we will completely cease operations tomorrow’. Lots of dead people.
It’s easy to blame them because it’s true.
At this point, many of them are too stablished to just go away with the power of the wallet.
So, once again. If it’s 7 companies to blame - do you think shutting them down tomorrow is the simple solution?
It may not be simple, but I’m sure nature wouldn’t mind.
ok play it through a bit, so we shut down those 7 companies - i’m not sure which seven companies people are talking about but i assume it’s related to this statistic Just 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions so let’s just shut them all down…
mother nature breaths a sigh of relief as billions of people die because of the collapse of global infrastructure, world governments collapse, desperate conflicts erupt around the world with warlords taking over oil reserves and production facilities… the handful of dictators with working tanks and who only care about wealth and power subjugate the helpless and starving masses promising food and prosperity when victory comes…
Now the planet has been purged of everyone who actually cares about the climate, every available source of food and energy is stripped in a frantic battle for survival - how many people do you know that would let their kids freeze to death and how many people do you know that’d go out and chop down a tree to burn? A couple of months of winter and every tree in every city would be felled.
Hey bud, I’m the guy you asked what in my opinion would happen if companies halved their consumption over night. I just wanted you to know that I replied, but due to the fact that the mod of this place disagreed with something I had to say about cruise liners, I got banned and all my comments erased.
Good luck, and try not to disagree with the power tripper here.
Annoying. If you still have a copy - could you DM me?
I do not. The gist of my reply was just that cutting production by half doesn’t have to happen over night. Setting a scaling goal of five years, for example, would give ample time for people to adapt and less environmentally strenuous alternatives to arise.
Anyway, I’m not trying to say that change doesn’t have to come from the bottom as well. I’m also not super keen on continuing this conversation in the wake of being wholesale banned for talking about corporate interests. It just kind of left a bad taste in my mouth.
Thanks for listening.
Thank for taking part. I appreciate it - and I would have like to have explored this with you. I do appreciate batting ideas about with pople of differing viewpoint. I think we botgh have the same goal in mind
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It absolutely is a fallacy - but then I think the “its just 7 companies” is a fallacy too. It gives the false impression that CO2 emissions can be tackled trivially simply - just sort those companies out, and we are sorted. We aren’t. Setting aside for a moment, the criminal lobbying they have been doing, those companies are meeting current demand. Let’s say they don’t shut down - lets say they halve capacity tomorrow. What happens, in your opinion?
I find articles like this so frustrating. It feels like it is aimed at being a wake-up call to the reader, but at the same time offers no solutions, no advice and still lays the blame at the feet of the average person for not doing enough. “What we have done to ourselves” is not advocate enough I guess?
Perhaps I’m not the target audience for the article. I grew up in an environmentally conscious home we’ll before it was trendy and have been worried about climate change for as long as I can remember. It’s hard to see an article like this as anything other than an effort to drive traffic…
I’d be happy to hear what others got out of the article if it was more positive than my read of it.
Climate despair is the new climate denial, and these doomer editorials are oil industry propaganda pivoting.
If we can’t do anything about it then nothing has to change and rich people keep getting everything they want.
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I for one will spend my post-collapse life tracking down the buried bunkers of the mega-rich just to shit down each and every one of their air vents.
Dead on accurate. These oil execs know they’ll be dead before there’s any significant impact to them. They justify it as the cost of doing business and ensuring they continue to get a fat paycheck. There’s clear evidence of major corps like the tobacco industry seeding doubt and spreading misinformation when it came out how dangerous their product was. Hell even look at things like the corporate influence in the creation of the food pyramid. Really? Everyone needs a giant fat serving of carbs?? They sure do when there’s money to be made.
It’s no different with climate change. Spread misinformation, seed doubt, when that doesn’t work pivot and play on the despair as your angle. Whatever keeps the paychecks flowing and people focused on anything but the truth.
The greed of humanity will ultimately be our undoing.
I’m honestly super sick of this take. I keep seeing people say that the oil industry is responsible for doomers, and it’s as bad as climate denial.
Is it though? Of all the people I know, the only ones that take the situation at all seriously are the ones that actually truly believe we are in serious trouble. Only those people are voting primarly based on climate issues, taking part in protests, or making changes to lifestyle. The vast majority of people don’t actually believe we are in serious trouble. The vast majority of media is still feeding us the line that things are basically going to be fine with some incremental changes.
Oil companies are advocating for market solutions to the problem and continuing the status quo as long as possible. The idea they are trying to cause the greater population to actually believe they are doomed is insane. A population that actually believes they are doomed might take drastic action.
I dunno, I have the unfortunate experience of association with a lot of libertarian types. All of them believe we’re in serious danger, all of them believe it’s too late, and all of them are leaning hard into that “fuck you I got mine” mentality because it’s too late for anything else.
They do nothing to help except vote libertarian or green.
@nottelling @CleverNameAndNumbers
“rich people keep getting everything they want”
Even (most) rich people don’t *want* death and destruction. They want money!
Like the song goes, we can’t always get what we want!
relevant video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc1vrO6iL0U
(Also, archive link to top article: https://archive.is/gI427 )
My parents always act surprised when I tell them I don’t think I’d want to have children… Maybe I’m being negative, but if I had to guess this is only going to get worse and will never be fixed. I genuinely don’t believe the next generation is going to have a decent future ahead of them.
As soon we start worrying about things other than money, we might actually have a chance, but as I get older I have more and more doubt that’ll happen.
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What an abhorrent take. That’s an insane set of expectations to place on someone who doesn’t even have a say in the process of coming into being and, frankly, gambling with another person’s life. “Welp, we couldn’t fix it but good luck kiddo.” Disgusting.
what is your opinion about this view?
Personal Opinion: This is as selfish (my child will save the world) and self centred as having a child to “save a marriage” is stupid.
Yup - the overwhelming odds say they’ll both contribute and fall victim to the problem, not solve it.
We have ~7bn people alive today, and we can’t muster the will to do what we know we is needed in order to survive. Instead, we’ll refuse to make comparatively small compromises, and sign our children’s death warrants.
What if your kid lives in abject horror due to systematic failure of the environmental patterns that allow us to thrive
See, there’s also a good chance that a random child might not be that person, and then that kid now gets to deal with all of this, despite having absolutely no input or fault in it. So, for me, it would be weighing the likely options.
A) Your child is luckily the answer to these problems
Or:
B) You’ve guaranteed that an innocent person has to deal with the effects of generations ignoring societal problems and climate change.
I can’t say that I really blame young people for not wanting to create more people who would have to struggle with that life. I don’t blame them for feeling insecure in their housing situations or for worrying about their finances, either. If they do anyways, they just get told that they should have thought about this stuff before having kids. Respectfully, fuck that noise.
WE need to make a solution. Continuing to cross our fingers that the next generation will fix things could easily kill us all. We have to actually start doing stuff ourselves. Previous generations also hoped for a future genius to solve climate problems, and look where that lands us today.
What will be do if there isn’t a magical scientific answer, and we have to actually start living differently at all levels of society? Hypothetically in that situation, we’d be screwed if we put all of our eggs in the “next generation” basket. How can we know for certain that that won’t be the case eventually? Global warming is already starting a feedback loop.
maybe, but very probably (overwhelmingly so) not. I’ll take those odds
we didn’t do shit. big oil companies on the other hand…
And who exactly did oil companies sell their oil to? That’s right. We. The stuff we buy the miles we travel the lives we live collectively are what creates greenhouse gas emissions. Can’t blame an oil company for wanting to heat your home in winter or cool it in summer.
I wonder if there are any greener alternatives to oil that can be provided by the companies that currently use oil? Perhaps ones that might incur a bit of a hit to those company’s profits? And that hit to profits being the only reason those company’s havent shifted to the greener alternatives?
But no. Its my fault that i have no choice but to fill up my shitty diesel engine to get to work. Because i can definitely swap to a bicycle to make me already 40 minute at 60mph commute…
It’s not your fault. It’s no one’s fault. We’re all out here living our lives with the hands we’ve been dealt. I’m only pushing back on the feel good take of “80 companies responsible for most emissions” or whatever the stat is. It’s a blatant attempt to deflect feeling any kind of responsibility or agency or having played a part at all. We all do what we do, and we’ll feel the consequences collectively.
My whole comment was sarcasm. I k ow its not my fault. I have contributes and i wish i had a way to not do that. But this is the world we live in. If big companies were so profit driven then we would already be alot greener and the planet wouldnt be spiralling into heat death.
Big oil companies witheld critical data on impact of fossil fuels on climate change. Source
What’s the alternative? I am genuinely curious. It’s not exactly by choice that I can’t afford an EV, ignoring the fact that my city does not the infrastructure to support EVs…
We’ve likely kicked ourselves from a path where we would see 4C of warming by 2100 with further warming thereafter to one where we see about 3C of warming by 2100 with further warming thereafter. That’s an improvement, but not what we need, with is actual stabilization under livable conditions.
Again with the “we”.
And who bought the gas? Who bought the oil? Who bought the plastic made from the oil? Who bought the food grown from the fertilizer made from the oil?
If you don’t live on North Sentinel Island your entire life relies on the products of the corporations that have destroyed the environment. You are complicit. Your parents were complicit. Your children, if any, will be complicit.
Blaming corporations or capitalism or “big oil” is just a way of dodging personal responsibility. It’s an excuse for not making inconvenient personal changes in your own lifestyle. It lets you tell yourself that when big corporations consume so much there is no point in you lowering your standard of living to consume less.
The fact that corporations are worse than you does not absolve you of your responsibility for your own decisions and your own environmental sins. We all have to do better.
Big oil companies witheld critical data on impact of fossil fuels on climate change. Source
You go ahead and use paper straws all you like if it will give you a moral high ground and let you shit on people like you just tried on me. It will clear your conscience and will help you consider yourself soo much better than the rest. The fact remains - massive corporations do the most damage and will do fuck all to fix it up by, oh, I don’t know, changing their production methods, switching to renewables etc. But yeah, sure, it’s my fault.
You have to be incredibly naive to think a systemic problem can be solved by individual lifestyle changes
Systemic problems need political fixes. Political fixes require collective action. And collective action is the sum total of individual lifestyle choices.
If you want government to act on the environment you need a critical mass of voters who put the environment first and punish politicians at the ballot box if they don’t.
If you want corporations to act on the environment you need a critical mass of consumers who refuse to buy from corps that don’t.
And you get to that critical mass by living your values and converting other people to those values.
So yeah, your asking for a paper straw doesn’t make an impact. You being part of hundreds of thousands of people all asking for paper straws tells Starbucks they better pay attention.
There are plenty of alternatives to oil that dont require destroying the environment. We as the consumers cant really force them to stop using oil. Theres plenty of groups out there dedicated to stoppi g the use of oil but they are mostly ignored.
You cant say we should all stop using oil and then they will change, because we rely on oil to live our lives. The change has to be made by the corporations. Like the change to EVs that will help with carbon emmisions.
Frankly if the only reason a big company wont switch to greener alternatives to oil is a hit to their profits then i have absolutely no sympathy. They can get fucked. Greedy fuckers.
“we”
Pretty bad doomerism takes here.
Yeah, I’m getting serious apocalyptic christianity vibes.
Who’s “we”, exactly?
We deserve everything that’s coming We took this world to our graves, We made its creatures our slaves Shattered the hourglass, an un-erasable past Humans, Demons, deranged and depraved
- unless you’re a billionaire
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