- cross-posted to:
- A_new_socialism_communism
- politicalmemes
- politicalmemes
- cross-posted to:
- A_new_socialism_communism
- politicalmemes
- politicalmemes
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/16451158
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or vote green
Sure, split the vote so the other side is assured a win, brilliant If those Jill Stein dummies weren’t a thing, Dump would have one less term.
I will only choose another color, if we get ranked-choice voting.
Sure, let’s play the puppet game. Shit if you can’t realize atleast some of the responsibility lays on dems side. Just look at it like this, they didn’t engage with red states, they didn’t engage with red areas, they didn’t push strong candidates, they allow corruption on their side aswell, they half ass so many policies, and dropped the ball in alot of aspects like no child left behind (not saying to abandon kids, just freaking want a program that doesn’t screw the majority of kids learning).
With all that, don’t get me wrong I despise trump and republicans. However the reality is this happened due to one side actually being proactive in their strategy. The democratic party isn’t proactive. Kamala was a bad pick purely due to lack of popularity, which could’ve been addressed by decisive engagement. But NO they’re thinking about their retirement and stock portfolios. Or they’re just straight up to old to do that much.
George Carlin put this idea to rest a very long time ago. If you truly believe that Democrats are somehow fundamentally different from Republicans you have lost the plot.
The two party system is a lie. Actually there are factions within and without each party. If your analysis stops at D and R, you cannot possibly describe American politics accurately.
In other words, your oversimplification is not useful for comprehension of the situations at hand. But it is also true that corporate lackeys exist everywhere.
This is something I disagree with Carlin on.
Dems have utterly failed in doing anything other than fighting progressives the Dem party is truly insane in that they are obstructing the very thing that would save us all which is more Dems everywhere. Time for the old guard to step down or turn their attention to combating the GOP. Like it’s utterly fucking stupid. And fuck the fuck out of Israel get the fuck out of the Dem party and American politics.
40 plus years of neo liberal policy, that yes have been embraced by ‘both sides’, has been destroying the nation and for some reason people don’t want to admit it.
This is not true, voting is the problem. You think it will solve problems, but it won’t!! Both sides work for the same team. Find a way out with unions
I don’t think “both sides are bad” is designed to keep people from voting. It’s meant to give the people that follow the definitively worse of the 2 sides a justification to keep voting the same way.
It can be two things.
I think it does both. Some people don’t vote because it doesn’t matter. Some people vote for the right because they can say it doesn’t matter…
Then the right win, we go all fascist and richer people get richer.
Voting is an illusion of choice. At best, you’re voting for a personality. Who voted for these flock cameras? Who voted for this war with Iran? Who voted for citizens united? I can go on and on.
No, you’re simply wrong. Voting changes many things. But it doesn’t fix everything. I mean, just look at Iran. Did Biden start that? No. But if Trump had won in 2020, you can bet he would have done the same thing four years earlier.
Voting is about policy, unless you’re foolish and decide it’s about personality.Then really bad shit happens. And politicians have been corrupt for millennia. So what? You want a king instead? Lol. Go look at history and tell me how that worked out.
Voting alone is insufficient. Do other things, too. Or don’t! It’s your life.
Nope, you are very wrong. Biden did a lot of drone attack as well. Voting keeps your attention away from actual problems. They are intentionally making voting results 50/50, so thay you think it may solve problems.
Nope, you are very wrong
No, u
Wow that post triggered a lot of people good job OP. Luckily m country is not yet two party
Almost a good meme. Should have ended you are the problem.
Thank you for posting this, OP.
Both sides are bad. One is markedly worse though.
Yes. Also, there is zero, ZERO path to anything better through the Republocan party.
There are plenty of ways to eventually get somewhere through the Dems. It may mean “suffing” alot of do nothing bull shit, but there are paths and ways.
The fun part is, that the Republicans didn’t even start out as a Maga cult party. They got infiltrated. Not just by rich people, but by people from all sorts of backgrounds, joining or voting for support. Nothing is stopping the left from doing the same with the Democrats. But for that to happen, they’d need to stop with the constant purity tests…
Nothing is stopping the left from doing the same
Intellectual honesty. The left will say what they actually want, the alt-right will lie their way in. “I’m literally an anarchist” versus “oh I’m just a fiscal conservative”.
And these days, the left is doing that as we speak.
The real problem is that both parties have convinced most people that striving to change the voting system that produces the two-party system is pointless.
As long as that system exists, this useless and polarizing debate won’t stop and evil and corruption will continue to flourish.
The land of freedom, choice and competition doesn’t want freedom, choice and competition in its elections. Think about why that is.
FPTP: obvious to us, incomprehensible to candidates
The largest non-voting registered group in the 2024 election were those associated with neither party: independents and unaffiliated voters.
About a quarter of eligible voters aren’t even registered on top of that.
“Both sides are bad” statements aren’t necessarily driving partisans to not vote. They are, or can be however, an important message for those two big parties running the elections to hear from the people.
It’s also, possibly one of the few talking points that forces acknowledgement that those independent, unaffiliated, and unregistered voters exist and whose interests might matter towards the outcome of policy and/or elections.
But yes, the interests that align with at least the GOP are furthered when votes are suppressed, that has been demonstrably true for decades.
What if people are unaffiliated or unregistered because they believe both sides are bad?
Then the posts aren’t encouraging them to change any behavior. This premise only works if you have partisan voters deciding not to vote because of the Both-Sidesism.
If it is the default case that a party already does not have the
anyvotes of the largest mass of voters, then the parties should focus on gaining their support.But also: more libertarians protested the GOP over Both-Sidesism than leftists, so technically it still had a net benefit effect for Harris. Which further demonstrates how flawed the whole premise is.
I don’t really follow.
We’re not talking about well informed Lemmy users weighing the policies of candidates and deciding to abstain from voting because Gaza.
We’re talking about apathetic low information voters looking for an excuse not to get off the couch on polling day.
“Both sides” is the classic strategy to keep these voters on the couch.
votes third party
No not like that
Seriously though, I think it’s important to confront and admit that voting for the lesser evil does legitimize the evil they do, even if the greater evil does it worse. Because critically digesting both that fact alongside the fact that voting for the lesser evil really does result in better outcomes for society is what will actually get the hesitant on board with going and doing it. If you try to dismiss or handwave that fact, you are dismissing and handwaving the very real concerns of the disillusioned non-participants. Acknowledging the dissonance is far better.
I think it’s also important to point out that while direct action and social organizing are the most effective things things you can do to change society, they are incredibly time consuming while voting usually takes 5 - 30 minutes. And if you’re actually interested in the former, there’s little to no excuse to avoid the latter.
Just whatever you do, don’t shame people for being disillusioned. That makes people really dig in their heels.
Is this outcome today from everyone supporting third parties over and over, or from everyone voting lesser evil over and over?
Its from more people voting on the right than people voting on the left.
I vote so I can cancel out a maga vote
i take every opportunity to shit on, mock, ridicule, insult, verbally abuse bothsidesbad dipshits everywhere they show their stupid fucking faces
whatever happened to all the “vOtE 3rD pArTy BeCuZ gEnOcIdE” fucking morons? actually j/k i don’t miss them at all. how’s that iran war going? we sure helped palestine by throwing away our vote, huh? fucking idiot clowns
Why do people keep purposely misrepresenting the criticism people had for Harris? Like, I know, it was hard at the time to listen to people warning about her potential to lose. But, we have the advantage of hindsight now. Do we have to pretend the main criticism of Harris was that Trump would be better? No one that wasn’t a grifter was saying that.
The vast vast majority of people criticizing Harris were doing so because they correctly warned people that if she did not separate herself from Biden and run FOR something turnout would be low and she would lose.
- The people critizing her for trying to run “strong border” ads were correct.
- The people that criticized her for saying “nothing comes to mind” when asked if she would have done anything differently than Biden were correct.
- The people that criticized the campaign for stopping the very well received “weird” messaging Walz brought. They were correct. Walz brought momentum and they shut it up. It’s like they were allergic to things that were working and getting people interested in her campaign.
- The people that critized her when she suddenly stopped talking about her ONE concrete policy idea on grocery store price controls. They were correct. She stopped talking about a vastly popular position because Trump called her “communist”. And then they kept calling her a “communist” anyway.
- The people that criticized her for supporting Bidens Israel policy; THEY WERE CORRECT. We are living in a world were 75% of lifelong Democrats are against any support for Israel. This didn’t happen overnight. This has been happening since Bidens genocide began. And her absolute failure to LEAD and understand were the country was heading was a complete failure. We told you in 2024. The country was begging for a real leader and this issue would shown that she had that ability to lead. That she could call a spade a spade and not be another bull shit politician afraid to upset AIPAC. She failed.
Do you know what a leader does? They LEAD and guide others in the correct direction. We are there NOW. The people that vote for the Democratic party are ALWAYS significantly ahead of there leaders on the actual issues. They were begging for a leader that would actually step forward and be unafraid and unapologetic in leading on issues and policy.
We don’t have to wonder. We are literally seeing it growing RIGHT NOW. From Mamdani to Abdul (soon) we are seeing anti Israel and leftwing populism wipe the floor with Harris style Democrats.
A 15 term incumbent losing DEMOCRATIC primaries to a 29 year old that was saying “fuck Kamala Harris” for not taking a stand against Israel. The people you are crying about that “lost Kamala the election”. They are the people literally going out and organizing right now because they are sick and tired of having to explain why the Democratic party keeps losing to Trump and being told “you’re the reason Harris lost.”
We’re done with just explaining it. We’re done being used as a scapegoat for the failures of the Democratic party when we offer constructive criticism. We’re forcing these politicians out of office that refuse to actually lead.
I don’t know a single person I organize with in DSA that didn’t go vote for Harris. We aren’t the ones that didn’t show up. The ones that didn’t show up were the people that didn’t even know who the presidential candidates were a week before the election. And a lot of them didn’t have reason enough to take off work, not be able to pick their kid up from daycare on time, or didn’t want to get stuck in traffic, so they decided to not vote that day.
So, please, stop pretending the people actually organizing for good candidates like Mamdani were the people that didn’t show up. And, please, come join us at DSA and help us elect people that actually have the motivation and knowledge to be leaders.
Edit: And for the love of God, please stop confusing the majority of the socialist movement with Anarkiddies and the socialist that like to LARP as Maoist third worldist online. We don’t like them much either. They are kinda stinky and need to shower. But, they aren’t worth even caring about. They don’t have any negative effects outside your twitter feed.
I don’t know a single person I organize with in DSA that didn’t go vote for Harris. We aren’t the ones that didn’t show up.
Why are you writing novels to defend yourself against something that wasn’t even directed at you?
OP clearly referenced people who protest-voted against Harris and subsequently made everything measurably worse for the Palestinians and Earth at large (which was obviously going to happen if Trump won).
Probably because people still don’t seem to understand the electoral college. Which is very bad for demonstrating being a knowledgeable member of the American electorate.
Votes for president have negligible to no meaning due to the electoral college system. We now know that the protest votes counted in the hundreds whereas millions failed to vote at all. No outcomes in any race were decided by protest votes. More right wing libertarians protested the GOP.
The protest voters demonstrably did not make everything measureably worse. They are quite frankly the reason we have seen the dial shift towards elections of people like Mamdani. They’re still throwing McMurrows out at every turn.
LOL trump is potus
It sounds like you supported Hillary and still don’t understand why she lost, so you keep the same approach… In reality, tens of millions of voters actually care who the Dem candidate is. If you feed them a pro-corporate anti-worker center-right tool, they might stay home. That is reality, my friend. Blame them all you want. I would blame the DNC, but you do you.
There was a primary, she won the primary. Sure the DNC tried to sway public opinion, but ultimately the voters gave us Hillary. That is reality my friend.
There’s a difference between supporting the ideology of a candidate, and supporting effective voting. You can blame the DNC for pushing a bad candidate, but the people who’d rather stay home than choose lesser evil deserve the greater evil when they get it.
You play the hand you’re dealt, not the one you wish you had.
She won the primary because the DNC did everything they could to undermine Bernie. Dabbie Wasserman Schultz had already anointed Hillary the chosen one and didn’t want anyone screwing with her plan, democracy be damned.
you’re talking about idiots as if they’re something other than fucking idiots. tens of millions? because more idiots make the idiocy more valid? GTFO
i couldn’t care less who you think i should blame. we are fascism now.
They were bots. All of them. And the public is too dumb to tell.
In the Coke vs Pepsi system of the US, its hard to see how voting for one over the other would be any better. Sometimes 3rd and 4th parties actually have a little bit of power in Canada’s Westminster system if there’s a minority government. It just goes to hell when the Liberals stop pretending to not be conservatives.
In the Coke vs Pepsi system of the US, its hard to see how voting for one over the other would be any better
living in america, i just can’t comprehend how anyone could think that literally anyone/anything is every bit as terrible as trump.
are you really sitting there trying to tell me that harris wouldn’t be any better than trump?
jesus fucking christ
From an outside perspective, the “both sides” arguments in the US sounds so fucking stupid and fucking lazy.
It’s like some worthless pricks watched some South Park episode about a turd and a douche and took it seriously for some fucking reason and used it for their entire political identity. For fucks sake, it’s even worse hearing, “yeah Biden did a lot of good, but he didn’t advertise it enough”. Fuck that shit. That’s on you being a fucking stupid uninformed (non?)-voter.
Ok, I’m an outsider looking in. Up here, I’ve been an NDP member for years, I know that we are not making government any time soon, but we have pushed the Liberal government to implementing universal healthcare, and made steps toward universal dental care and pharmacare. A vote for the 3rd party can be effective.
Looking south, it’s hard to see how voting for someone will incrementally make your life worse is that much better than the one who will make your live worse today.
Up here, we voted in Carney to keep Poliver out (I don’t respect him enough to spell his name correctly), but really their policies are so similar that a ton of conservatives joined the Liberal party to give him a majority.
Were I in your system, I don’t know if I would vote. I wouldn’t have voted for Hillery, Biden, or Harris, I sure as hell would never have voted for Trump. But I’m not in your system, so I can’t say for sure.
Great job punchin’ left and missin’ the whole point. 👍
LOL yup there it is
and no. i didn’t miss shit. try again
all you’re going to come back with is “uR dUm” or something equally stupid.
the fact is 3rd party/ abstaining is objectively the dumbest fucking position anyone could ever take, and now we have a fascist rapist racist pedophile president who sucks israel’s cock. honestly gtfo with your vote 3rd party bullshit. fucking clowns
I voted for Kamala 🤷♂️
You’re the one now alienating people we need.
now we have a fascist rapist racist pedophile president who sucks israel’s cock.
Who only became a viable candidate because of thirty years of lesser-evil voters covering for the Democratic Party to shift from slightly right of center to right of Reagan, but just slightly left of the “fascist rapist racist pedophile”.
Nakedly fascist and white supremacist candidates have been in the Republic Primary forever. They never got the time of day from Republican voters until the bipartisan Neoliberal austerity had squeezed the working class so hard that a fascist strongman selling easy answers seemed attractive. And after the guy who ran on Hope and Change delivered Narratives and Crumbs instead, yeah a lot of disillusioned people who’d been first time voters during the Obama years went back to staying home. That’s not because of “both sides” messaging depressing turnout, that’s because of “both sides” reality showing them it didn’t matter. They voted for a Public Option and got United Healthcare denying their claims. They voted to codify Roe and end the Bush Tax Cuts and got open air slave markets in North Africa and the Space Program handed over to Billionaires to cannibalize.
Then after Trump’s first term, they watched the party push Biden from sixth to first without even trying to be subtle about it. And it was obvious even on Super Tuesday that Biden wasn’t being annointed because he could stop Trump, but because he could stop Bernie Sanders. So why on Earth would anyone who finds the status quo untenable continue to support a party so obviously and totally devoted to defending the status quo against any attempts to improve it? Voting for the ratchet because you fear the wheel isn’t going to motivate anyone. The only people still on your side are the ones too blind to see that ratchet effect policy and identity politics is the only thing the DNC has to offer.
abstaining is objectively the dumbest fucking position anyone could ever take
One of the other positions is pro rape, pro concentration camps and pro explosive diarrhea.
That’s all the same thing, not 2 sides. If you’re abstaining, you’re supporting the pro rape, pro concentration camps, and pro explosive diarrhoea.
Vote in the primaries. Vote in the general. Know who you’re voting for or against, make sure you haven’t been purged.
Then you should be voting against it.
Continuing to antagonize the people you want to help you is pretty close to just as stupid.
yea. “catch more flies with honey” right?
reasonable non-stupid people have been trying that for YEARS
DECADES
and here we are. yes, it’s possible harris would have been worse for palestine than trump has been.
LOL j/k no fucking way.
but yea. i will continue to antagonize. these people aren’t helping anyone, they’re harming. fuck them
Agent of the enemy, right here. Zero self awareness.
☝️
You idiots have been antagonizing people for decades. I say idiots because you think this insulting drivel is honey?
This is why Democrats lose.
Antagonize whom? Lemmy was FILLED with leftist preachers telling everyone that Harris needed to earn their vote. They loudly proclaimed that everyone needed to vote 3rd party to send a message.
It was no different than politely debating a Trump supporter. Anyone debating them was an attack. When they talked they believed it wasn’t antagonizing, only responses were “antagonizing”.
At this point those true leftist need to be publicly shamed for their mistake so it doesn’t get repeated. Pretending it didn’t happen will allow history to repeat.
