To be clear, not talking about this community, obviously 😛.
What’s the point of writing down rules, if mods just do what they want? But I suppose that’s the risk you take when you call someone a liar in a small community; they might be a mod.
Edit: I’m not trying to say that mods suck, they perform a useful and often thankless job. Just that it can be difficult for small communities to get a healthy number of good mods, which can become a problem.
I get the feeling you’re speaking from experience
Your honor, the prosecution is sullying the defendant’s reputation
Your honor, the prosecution just hit me with a whip
Lol perhaps 😅
It was a small community dedicated to shit talking another community, neither of which I was part of. A few posts showed up in my feed and one had a take I thought was kinda unreasonable, so I commented. I had a nice discussion with one community member, but OP came in hot. After a half-hearted effort to try to defuse, and being blatantly lied to in a few replies, I just told him he was a conniving liar.
A few days later I tried to comment on a different post, but I was banned.
Not a big deal, I’m not invested in either community, but it made me think of the struggles growing Lenny from these small nascent communities, into more more mature communities.
Lemmy is riddled with echo chambers, most of which are people that love calling out people in echo chambers.
Circlejerks. Circlejerks everywhere.
That was pretty much exactly the case here, afaict.
Ad hominem attacks generally result in bans in most communities from what I’ve seen. This is the way it should be.
That’s not an ad hominem, though. If someone says something, and you dismiss it and call them a liar, thats an ad hominem. If they tell a bunch of lies, and you label them a liar, that’s not an ad hominem. That’s accurately describing the person based on their choices.
Calling someone a liar is absolutely and always an ad hominem, because it labels their character rather than pursuing their argument.
You can call their words lies and attack those words and their intent, but once you start labelling you are looking to subvert it and attack character by assuming malicious intent.
Which you’re free to assume, but that doesn’t excuse you from the fallacy.
I’m ok with that.
If someone repeatedly and probably tells untruths, and then doubles down when confronted with evidence, I’m ok making that leap to calling them a liar.
It’s okay to be okay with it, it’s even better when there is convincing evidence. I’m just saying you can skip the fallacy by attacking their argument/lie, which you have to do regardless if you want to conject that they are liar.
However it still implies that they are a liar in some habitual or further-reaching sense. This is not easy to prove. Did they lie before? What were those lies and how can you prove them so? Will they lie in the future? How can you know for sure? These are the questions that make it a fallacious label as it frames character rather than argument, and it just seems a bit … dull and irrelevant, when you can attack the lie just as easily.
We’re pretty much all strangers online, correct?
If something is posted that is provably false, it is provably false. It doesn’t matter if the poster regularly posts accurate things about another subject. The post would still be provably false, even if the poster was normally truthful about barley.
Imo, if someone wants to be seen as honest, the onus is on them to act honestly. If you act in a way that’s dishonest, people will likely acknowledge that you’re acting in a way that’s dishonest. If their only experience of you is through you being dishonest, it only makes sense that they’ll think that you’re dishonest.
No one is owed being considered as an honest and trustworthy person. If you do lie, you should expect the people who you lied to to no longer trust you. Why would they? That’s not a reasonable expectation to have.
Being considered as an honest person is one of those things that you kind of have to do to earn. If you act dishonestly, it would be silly to expect other people to still consider you as an honest person. You don’t get to mislead people and then become upset when they don’t believe you anymore. That isn’t rational.
It’s pretty easy to avoid being labaled as a liar online, tbh. Verify your stuff before you post it. Don’t double down against solid evidence, especially without any of your own. Don’t make stuff up. Accept and acknowledge that you can be wrong sometimes, and strive for the correct answer instead of the one that “wins” the argument for you.
Misinformation is dangerous, and it deserves to be called out. Misinformation can cause a lot more harm than someone occasionally being called a “liar” online by a random stranger.
I would also argue that most people probably haven’t really had problems with being called a “liar” online.
If the misinformation is about how many seeds an orange has, people probably won’t care too much, as it doesn’t really cause a lot of harm. That type of misinformation usually just gets passively corrected.
If the misinformation ends with someone else suffering, it will likely get called out harshly, and probably deservedly so.
I don’t know what’s happened to cause you to dislike people being called liars to this extent, but there is a good reason for people doing that sometimes. I’m not going to stalk your page or comments, so idk where you personally fall on that. Calling someone a “liar” is similar to calling someone “dishonest”.
Sorry, but that’s crap. Questioning the credibility of a liar is not automatically fallacious reasoning or an ad hominem. Attacking their character instead of arguing against their points is an ad hominem fallacy. Pointing out the consistency of lies from a single source and then extrapolating out to question the validity of future statements of fact is rational, logical, and reasonable. It’s perfectly valid to label a liar when they repeatedly tell lies, as long as you can support the label by proving they are lying.
I mean, if some lies, and I come with receipts and tell them that they’re bad for doing so, I should get a ban? That doesn’t seem right.
I got into an argument in the main Technology community a couple weeks or so back and while I admit that it got too heated so that both of us broke the “be excellent to each other” rule, I still feel that an immediate 3-day ban with no warning or notification (I had to check the modlog to find out why I suddenly couldn’t comment there) in a group where I’d never broken the rules before was ridiculous.
Didn’t help any that the mod almost immediately unbanned the other guy who had been equally unexcellent during the exchange and initially got the same ban and left mine in place…
I think “be excellent to each other” is a stupid fucking rule birthed out of the last few years’ trend of the pussification of the internet.
My main account got a temp ban for 14 days, the first 3 days I just thought Lemmy is broken, again. My feed was lost, but “all” worked.
A notice or a simple warning would be nice the next time.
Yup, I got a 30 day ban & still don’t know why. Someone must’ve just gotten butthurt lol. I’m probably gonna make the same mistake again ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Simply browse to your instance, go to moderations-log search your username and you find the reason.
There are potentially 3 different groups of people that may ban you for a comment. If you break a community rule, a moderator may ban you as you would expect from reddit. However, since reports also notify the admins of the community instance and the admins of the instance of the reporter, you may end up banned by an admin if they believe you are breaking an instance rule.
The modlog is great for transparency, but lemmy should also make it clear what group has banned you and why. I haven’t been banned before so I’m not sure what that process looks like currently though.
This is my first time. I’m not even sure where to find the modlog in jebora.
And yeah, notifying me that an action has been taken against me and the reason for that action would help me understand that I’ve done something wrong, what it was, and how to modify my behavior.
Yay! The whole Reddit experience, but without warning…
Reddit didn’t typically warn people before bans either.
meh if you’re being a shit starting nazi fuckwit I’m all for just banning and moving on.
First they came for…
The Nazis? That’s fine, I don’t mind them coming for the Nazis, because then the Nazis can’t come for everyone else.
They in this case being the fucking nazis, who first came for the trans people, and then the communists, the socialists, the trade unionists, Jewish people, etc
It can happen in any lemmy.world community, even if you did absolutely nothing wrong and you wont be told anything, not even that you have been banned or why. You just suddenly can not log in any more and when the ban is over you might even find that all content you ever posted has been deleted and can not be brought back. Lemmy.world admin team urgently needs to improve their banning practice and they should really consider to start answering emails. On the other hand, did I already tell you what a great instance lemm.ee is? They also have a very nice admin team over there …
Seriously this moderation is way worse than I expect coming from Discord communities. Moderation is handled by a team, a reason for mod action is given and recorded, appeals are possible rules are clear and constantly developing for even more clarity. Mods are seen in the community all the time and are well-liked and have a great deal of social intelligence.
You just described the exact opposite of how it´s done on lemmy.world 😂
Lmao yea
You still rant about that you got banned during the CP wave? WITH THAT NAME! oh gawd. The admins saw “Naked” and just banned you with a high chance. Yes. It was responsible, humane morally correct. The result is you got unbanned. CP’s dont get warnings so you just got banned. Simple Solution: never use a name with some sexual in it.
You are wrong. I just got a message from an admin, the ban had nothing to do with my username …
Yeah after i asked him about it too, he answered it to me too.
Often the mods are arbitrary and inconsistent. Moderation can really suck sometimes
Many many years ago I modded a few small reddit subs, and it was a horrible job. You’d set up these rules, and some tween edgelord d-bag would test you to see how much they can push. Some comments deserve an insta-ban with no warning and no debate.
I don’t know what happened to OP, and plenty of mods let the tiny amount of power inflate their heads past the point of reason. But I think of modding like I think of parenting. I’m not going to criticize someone else’s methods, because I’m sure as shit not going to do it for them.
I modded a Discord for a Gamesworkshop video game and it was like that. It really boils down to whether or no people see it as benefit or nevessary burden. I was offered the mod by devs for making some guides and took it because i knew my discomfort with weilding that power would be for the benefit of the community. I would bend over backwards to not take things personally or react but alot of edgelords still made it into an “us vs them” mentality.
I’ve also been permabanned from a steam game hub by power tripping mods who couldnt handle someone calmly disagreeing with them and thought they had the right to insult me and ban me for standing up for myself, then pretend like i was the one who was in the wrong for not eating their shit with a smile. (Distant Worlds 2/Slytherine Games)
It’s like being in politics, you gotta find people who feel obligated to do it as a public service and not those who have any desire for power.
Yes! I didn’t wanna say mods suck. It is an important and often thankless job.
Just that small communities without many mods are at risk of getting a bad apple.
Why? Because internet.
A lot of communities dedicated to politics arent dedicated to political discourse.
They mostly are enforced echo chambers. At best.
It happens on Lemmy all the time. I’ve been shadowbanned at least three times, all on the bigger instances.
I really, really suspect that the big Lemmy instances are being run by Reddit admins or spooks or some-such. They’re moderating their instances in the exact same way Reddit did minus the profiteering. The censorship is the exact same.
Also, the fact that it’s possible to shadowban people and the software itself doesn’t circumvent that by auto-messaging you or putting a banner on the top of your screen when you are banned from an instance or community is reason #589238923 why Lemmy fucking sucks ass.
It’s because the most insufferable people from reddit all came over to Lemmy/kbin when they got banned for being exceptionally insufferable.
I really, really suspect that the big Lemmy instances are being run by Reddit admins or spooks or some-such. They’re moderating their instances in the exact same way Reddit did minus the profiteering. The censorship is the exact same.
It’s just the reality of online content moderation. The good mods/admins are people who are passionate about a topic and want to provide a space for discussion and community building. When it comes to the “power mods” or whatever, like those we saw on reddit who moderated 100+ subs, they’re just in it to stroke their own egos.
Lol it literally just happened again now to another account. Site ban with no explanation. Clearly the way link aggregator sites are structured is just authoritarian and we need to create democratic social media.
I’m a real debate lord and it really annoys me when the person I’m being bickering with gets banned. Ruins all the fun.
That is why you have to message them being like “Hey idiot you got banned, anyway let me finish explaining why you’re an idiot”
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Eh sometimes. Paradox of tolerance is a real danger.
But it’s good to allow people a chance to grow.
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while I absolutely agree with you in a private setting, in a public setting I believe it does more harm than good to provide a platform for people to preach hate.
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Being tolerant of the intolerant will eventually mean destroying the tolerant.
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I disagree. Saying certain things are hate crimes, and shouldn’t be allowed. Like burning crosses, etc.
Deciding where to draw the line is difficult and subjective, but that doesn’t mean that it’s best to have no line.
Some improvements I’d like to see, but maybe I’m missing something and could be a bad idea
- The submitter gets notified if an action is taken on content they’ve submitted or on their account.
- Define rules with a tally of how many times a user breaks each of them, with well-defined consequences that can be programmed.
- The addition of polls
- Restrict polls to users already subscribed to the community at the time of the poll creation, or with a minimum of xx days subscribed and/or xx amount of submissions, upvotes, etc
- Have the rules voted by the community, and moderators elected/impeached by its community.
I implement the first two and the last rules in all the communities I moderate. Everyone gets either a message or a comment if they break the rules/I remove their comment/I give them a warning. I also reply to the vast majority of mod reports made, explaining what action I’ve taken and why. All my communities have a one-warning-then-you’re-banned rule, but bans are rarely permanent.
I repeatedly state that I’m looking for moderators, that I welcome all constructive feedback and suggestions regarding the way the community is run and what the rules are. I make it clear I want the communities to be a community effort. I’ve never ever vetoed a suggestion someone’s made - I always offer to let the community decide. What happens? People complaining/criticising but never taking me up on the offer to hold a vote on whatever it is they don’t like. It’s like shouting in the wind and it’s exhausting.
Have the rules voted by the community, and moderators elected/impeached by its community.
lol so you want to increase the amount of work mods do and then vote them out when they do shit you don’t like.
here’s an idea: become a mod yourself. do the unpaid work of cleaning up the trash so other people can whine in entitled posts like this about how all the mods are trash. jfc
spoiler: am mod, and apparently asking for fairness and clear rules agreed by the community is being entitled now
then vote them out when they do shit you don’t like.
no, it’s vote them out when they do shit the majority of active members of the community don’t like.
Yes, it’s unpaid, doesn’t mean you’re entitled to the community itself.
I maintain that mods aren’t required.
If you give the community the ability to remove/hide posts once a certain threshold is met the community can self moderate.
This is literally how society works. We self govern all the time by not cutting in line or smacking people in the face for no reason.
but then who do we give the power to take people’s online identities away to? such a valuable contribution to society
I didn’t get a ban, but definitely had a post “disappeared” with no explanation because I had the audacity to mention the extreme anti-Israel bias around here.
That’s one of the real problems I see so often, moderators feel strongly their side is right therefore anyone on the other side MUST be a bad actor and therefore it’s good to get rid of them using any means necessary - I’ve seen the same happen with people arguing against just stop oil and various other similar things - in the mods minds they’re just getting rid of bad faith posters and evil agents but in reality they’re silencing anyone who disagrees.
Public warnings are bullshit, anyway. They post a reply, warning you for saying something you didn’t say, often /u/ mentioning you, then delete the original comment to cover their tracks.
