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- cross-posted to:
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- politics
A recently released Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) document titled “Domestic Terrorism Symbols Guide”* links common protest symbols to “terrorism” — another marker in a common theme of conflating militant protest for social justice with deadly terrorist violence within the United States. Groups like the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and the Brennan Center have raised warnings about such documents, citing inadequate protections for people’s constitutional rights.
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Labelling Antifa as a terrorist group is basically admitting you are a fascist.
I think there’s more nuance on the topic than you’re implying. While there’s no actual group called antifa, there are plenty of groups who oppose far right ideology (i.e. anti-fascist/antifa). Some of these groups have definitely become heavily armed and radicalized. I don’t support fascists, but I also don’t support radicalized zealots of any creed. Does that make me a fascist?
While I’d prefer peaceful resolutions to our problems, I fully understand why left leaning groups are becoming more radicalized. There is little compromise with the theocrats who want to eliminate or subjugate various minority and underrepresented groups within our society, continually hand more and more power to corporations, wholeheartedly believe the end of days is coming once Israel fully takes control of the holy land, and will scream “Second Amendment” and “Crisis Actors” every time kids are killed in school shootings. They violently stormed the US Capitol many of whole had intent to kill Senators and Representatives.
There is no compromise or peaceful resolution with people who want to hurt you or worse because their pastor said you’re a demonic sinner who must be cleansed from the earth.
Yeah those fuckers want to kill me for even existing, if i armed up it would be entirely to defend myself.
So your saying your extremely interested in staying alive? Gotcha!
I would greatly prefer to stay alive, yes. Still haven’t loaded up on weapons, though.
Does that make me a fascist?
No, it makes you a person that probably won’t do squat to stop fascists.
It’s no coincidence wthat it’s only radicals that show up to physically confront fascists while the so-called “enlightened centrists” do nothing but heckle from the sidelines.
Yup. Or when anyone tries to do anything they will just come up with reasons why it’s wrong.
The media was quick to forget that they were literally trying to criminalize the wearing of masks before Covid hit because “Antifa Scary.”
So, yeah.
As someone who’s been in several combat zones with the US military (honorably discharged 10 years ago), I can safely say I do not want my backyard turning into one. So pardon me while I wait for all peaceful options to be utterly exhausted before getting gun-happy and LARPing with others in fatigues while shouting for armed resistance.
If MAGAs or any other “militia” begins marching down my street, I’ll sure as shit meet it with force. But until then or an outright coup, I’ll continue advocating for peace
Nobody’s asking you to break out the claymore mines just yet… it’s the fascists that are escalating the lethality, not the “scary radical left” opposing them.
It’s usually a good idea to try and stop the fash before they march down your street… by the time they do, the politicians might just have decided to hand them the keys to the tanks - which they will, eventually.
But confronting fascists is good optics for them. They want to be able to point to shit like that to show how oPpReSsEd they are for their oPiNIoNs. It’s fuel. Ignore the marches. A news article covering a bunny of dudes waving nazi flags and nobody giving a shit is infinitely optically better than a brawl between nazis and antifa.
But confronting fascists is good optics for them.
Absolutely not.
Anyone who believes that understands nothing about fascism at all. The pretense of “unopposable strength” is literally the only reason they will show themselves in public - if you don’t oppose it forcefully they win by default.
A news article covering a bunny of dudes waving nazi flags
The media will happily ignore fascism. After all, the rich media bosses know who it is that will protect their precious private property for them, just like all the rich people do… that is why they fund fascists - there is no such thing as “grassroots fascism”. The fact that antifa’s resistance meant they couldn’t is literally one of the reasons the US’s secret police is now seeing antifa as a threat to the status quo.
Ignoring fascism is no different than ignoring climate change - doing so doesn’t make it go away.
What do you think was more optically advantageous for the left, a bunch of patriot front idiots getting arrested just for marching, or antifa and the proud boys brawling?
We’re not at the point of civil war. Optics are still more important than punching them.
Actually, portraying your enemy as both strong and weak is crucial to fascism. To nazis, the jews were simultaneously subhuman and also in control of the world. To the alt right, the left is simultaneously soy boy beta cucks and nazi punching radicals. If you remove yourself from their narrative, it fails apart. And instead of brave defenders of western culture under attack from crazy leftist extremists, they simply become weird motherfuckers waving nazi flags in (current year).
I’m not gonna say don’t punch nazis, but don’t do it in an organized fashion at a rally where they hope to provoke a reaction.
Sure, just “ignore” it, conveniently forgetting they’re very much embedded in mainstream politics now and starting culture war campaigns, banning books, and actively attempting to dismantle democracy.
Fascism in the US is already here.
it seems the less energic options are already exhausted.
i dont want to be on the receiving end of state violence either but i dont think things can change by simply voting or protesting anymore.
this doesnt necessarily mean violence but we must change our strategy.
My stance on Jan 6 was had it been successful and Trump was installed as president, it would have been up to people like you to actually resist the new tyrannical government.
Because at that point, democracy was usurped and the necessary peace transfer of power was ignored for a violent insurrection.
The problem is that J6 was a test run. It was not successful because people with morals, many of whom were registered Republicans, stood firm and said this isn’t right. Many of these people have been replaced over the last three years to make stealing an election easier at a state level so that they won’t need to steal it at the federal level.
I’m not saying there aren’t peaceful options. But one side has already decided that peace is not an option. They showed that they will have their form of government, by force if necessary.
Downvoted because veteran
Oh give it a break.
Please shut up.
Downvoted because poor
They are dropping the “good people on both sides” banger
Maybe with another organization you would have a point, but in the case of the FBI which has been known to aid and recruit fascists I don’t see this holding any water.
I think you’re thinking of the CIA.
Why? You think the FBI is (somehow) not serving the interests of a fundamentally white supremacist empire?
The problem is that letting fascist types run rampant and hoping they’ll just go away historically doesn’t tend to work out well.
I live in Portland. Up until 2021 or so fascists, proud boys, Patriot prayer, etc. All ran rampant in cahoots with local law enforcement. People were menaced, paintballed, attacked and all that. It sucked. The sniveling mayor begged those groups not to come in (they’re never local) and act like that. Shockingly they did anyway.
It was unpleasant, but it worked. Those assholes haven’t tried to have their gatherings here in a couple of years. Self described antifa groups are still on edge but have largely diminished in activity. You don’t see antifa rallies designed to menace going out to the surrounding small towns where those assholes largely come from. Unless you’re sporting some obviously fash flair pretty much everyone gets left alone in town.
Both sides are not the same
That was a good read, tyvm
Radicals aren’t the same as extremists. And that is an important distinction to understand when dealing with politics. Being armed and willing to defend yourself isn’t an act of extremism. Being violent towards violent fascists isn’t extremism. It’s community defense. When you break down politics into it’s most base element, it’s about the distribution of the legitimate use of violence. Understanding and working within that framework isn’t extremism, it’s politics 101. Philosophy Tube has a good video on this in relation to fascism. Skip to ~20 mins in for the violence bit.
So would you label “maga” as heavily armed and radicalised?
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Sure, but I was curious whether the person I was replying to at least applied their standard across the board
I would be and I am, but I am not the person you are replying too. I believe even Nazi should have right to not to be beaten by a mob who call themselves “antifa”. Not suggesting that all antifa is such a mob.
So would you label “maga” as heavily armed and
radicalisedextremified?FTFY.
For most of Lemmy, yes, that makes you a fascist.
Yeah, actually, it kinda does.
yes that makes you a fascist.
i think that you should be quiet and postulate that garbage to the dump.
https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-329-since-1994-antifa-killed-none-2020-7
Well, you know *gestures vaguely at all the far-right stuff going on in the United States"
A group can be right and also be violent and extremist.
Not untrue, but antifa in general would cease to exist if fascists stopped coming to cities to menace people
In this context they’re using “extremist” to mean “goes too far”.
Do they? It didn’t really seem like a value judgment to me.
But you can also be right and go to far. I don’t know if these groups do go to far, but nuclear annihilation for example would definitely be too far.
In that case they’d be right about just the problem, but not right in their entire position which includes a solution. Nobody who thinks we should nuke the world for anything is right.
The site doesn’t refute violent extremist beliefs point by point or discuss matters of faith or politics. Instead, it makes teens aware of the destructive reality of various forms of violent extremism, including hateful attacks based on race, religion, or other factors. Through its Don’t Be a Puppet theme, the program encourages teens to think for themselves and display a healthy skepticism if they come across anyone who appears to be advocating extremist violence.
and display a healthy skepticism if they come across anyone who appears to be advocating extremist violence.
…except when it comes to the violent extremism of the FBI and other alphabet agencies, of course.
They don’t recognize it as extremism, and might even have the gall to deny that it’s violence.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree as to what constitutes an obvious value judgement.
I wonder if my profile pic puts me on that list.
The use or sharing of these symbols or phrases alone should not independently be considered evidence of AVE presence or affiliation or serve as an indicator of illegal activity.
-FBI, in the document referenced.
Yes, I read what the FBI said. But there have been a million reasons not to 100% trust law enforcement. I’ll take what they say with a grain of salt.
But anti fascist are fascist. we must lock them up and … \s
Only if you’re dumb enough to just assume whatever a group titles themselves actually reflects their beliefs.
Do you think the Nazis were socialist? How about the Soviets?
You can call yourself whatever you want, if your group is anti fascist and acts in an authoritarian manner, then you’re the same thing with a different economic outlook.
Yes but antifa is anti fascist.
Calling antifa a terrorist organization because in another universe an organization sharing the name could be bad is like banning ice cream because it could be made out of maggots.
Yes but antifa is anti fascist.
Damn, it’s like you didn’t even understand literally my entire comment.
Capitalist authoritarianism and socialist/communist authoritarianism are both the same thing, using terms like fascism to pretend it’s different is the problem.
If you use authoritarian means to get your way you are only different from fascism economically. If you aren’t authoritarian then you’re not going to support any group regardless of what they refer to themselves as or what they consider the opposition to be called.
An anarchist group is authoritarian? What are you smoking.
If a group tries to violently overthrow a system then yes they’re authoritarian. Shouldn’t be that hard to piece together.
Last time I checked anarchy involves the destruction of all systems of economics and government because people aren’t smart enough to realize that’s a fucking delusionally stupid idea.
Isn’t their whole thing arguing that terrorist tactics are justified, helpful and necessary? Every time I see antifa supporters talking online that’s the thrust of the discussion. What is the case for them not being a terrorist group?
Oooh… fascists are afraid of scawy antifa - that must mean antifa must be terrorists.
Good job demonstrating how much moral weight you ascribe to the feelings of fascists, Clyde.
I’m not sure what any of this has to do with what I said. I’m not talking about moral weight or feelings, and I’m not saying ‘terrorist’ pejoratively. It’s a word, it means something. I don’t think its meaning strictly depends on who is in the right, it’s more about goals and methods. What do you think it means?
Who has antifa (supposedly) “terrorized,” Clyde?
The FBI special agent pool is lousy with white power fascists and Christian nationalists. Since its directorship isn’t willing to clean house this is all a public relations front to suggest the FBI isn’t as captured as it is.
But James Comey did it no favors, and even ushered in the MAGA era during which Trump ousted him.
You can expect about as much professionalism from the FBI as you can the DEA or ICE. And they all deserve capture and prosecuton by International nazi-hunters once the hounds are released from their slips.
This is nothing new, either. For those that don’t know, the FBI under Hoover worked to undermine protest movements, resorting to blackmail and political assassinations to meet their ends. This is verified and accepted fact; COINTELPRO documents were stolen by activists and released, and details psychological warfare carried out on MLK, to the point of encouraging him to commit suicide, the murder of Fred Hampton and other prominent members of the Black Panthers, and many, many other atrocities committed against so-called subversives.
Emily Maitliss did an excellent podcast for the BBC on Hoover (called ‘The People Vs J Edgar Hoover’) Not sure if it’s available abroad, but well worth a listen.
Antifa? Terrorists?
Not the first time I’ve been labeled a terrorist incorrectly, probably won’t be the last.
In the US, to be labeled a terrorist, you only need to be brown and intelligent. Being Arab or Muslim will get you the label according to right-wing media, including OAN and FOX News.
But these days, terrorist is less about indiscriminate killing to influence others politically, and more about having sentiments against an administration or against a common system. So if you’re anti-capitalist, or against US imperialism, terrorist is a title you can proudly wear, even if all that you do is legal and ethical.
That said, I’d encourage considering adding saboteur to anyone’s repertoire of skills and activist efforts. State agents have long crossed the lines of violence against the innocent in order to influence others, making themselves and the states they represent terrorists in the OG sense.
Preach!
Direct link to the document in question:
https://unicornriot.ninja/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/DomesticTerrorismSymbolsGuidePart01-ocr.pdf
Included is information on “Animal Rights Violent Extremists”, “Anarchist Violent Extremists”, & “Militia Violent Extremists”. Each starts like this:
(U) SUMMARY: The following symbols and phrases are sometimes used by anti-government or anti-authority violent extremists, specifically anarchist violent extremists (AVEs). AVE symbols are often found on online platforms, in propaganda, and as graffiti. Some common themes for AVE symbols include images and stylized rhetoric conveying anti-capitalist, anti-fascist, or anti-government or anti-law enforcement sentiment.
Although the majority of criminal activity by AVEs violates state or local laws, some crimes may be investigated and prosecuted at the federal level.
The use or sharing of these symbols or phrases alone should not independently be considered evidence of AVE presence or affiliation or serve as an indicator of illegal activity. Additionally, some individuals use such references for their original, historic meaning, or other non-violent purposes.
The FBI does not investigate, co!lect, or maintain information solely for the purposes of monitoring activities protected by the First Amendment.
Where do they rank on the list compared to Juggalos?
Funnily enough, this leaves out Proud Boy symbolism. It lists other right wing militia symbols, including black and gold which includes the Proud Boys though.
It’s just a list of symbols that are sometimes used by terrorist/violent extremist/agitators though, and it explicitly says their usage or identity with these groups is not enough on its own, so it isn’t as bad as the headline implies it’s still not good though by any means.
Yeah I’d love to see a head count of violent right wing extremists just in the FBI vs violent left wing extremists in the entire country.
Juggalos are violent extremists now, too?
They were considered a gang by the FBI for a long time, not sure they still are but they did make the list for quite a while
Nah, just an affront to nature and an abomination in the eyes of God.
Most of (so-called) “Christianity” is an abomination in the eyes of God - so what’s your point?
God isn’t real.
I’m eventually gonna make a gif of Afleck from Jay & Silent Bob S.B. using fake sign language, saying “he’s a “fictional character””
Juggalos are basically irrelevant now.
Were they relevant when the FBI categorized them as a gang?
Gotta love the black and white picture that has different coloured flags that most likely look completely different to each other…
I think it’s helpful to remind people that the word Anarchy basically means ‘without hierarchy’, or it describes a condition or ideal characterized by the absence of hierarchical ordering.
well yah fbi and langely will be the first to burn once the revolution begins
Alright nerds, hit me with the facts. How many acts of violence or terror have been committed by people claiming to be Antifa? This is not a rhetorical question; I genuinely don’t know, and I bet someone here has stats on it. I don’t know how to feel about this without knowing whether any leftist groups are actually committing violence like the right. All I can think of is right-wing groups claiming to be Antifa lol
I think it’s mostly that leftists dislike the status quo, and the FBI prioritises maintenance of the status quo.
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