• @dustyData
    link
    fedilink
    English
    2263 months ago

    Wanna get even angrier? Since the cease fire was agreed, Israel released 150 Palestinian people. In that time, they have also made 133 new arrests of Palestinians for the crime of…celebrating the release of Palestinians.

    If this were done by a movie villain, people would criticize it for being too cartoonishly evil and unrealistic.

    • @NAXLAB
      link
      fedilink
      46
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      Imma need a hardcore source for this. Not because I doubt it, but because I’d like to include it in an essay

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          333 months ago

          It’s the ‘arrested for celebrating’ part that we want a source for and I didn’t see any in this article about it. Just seems very odd Israel would admit such a thing, so if they did I want a solid source to share with others.

          • @Sparlock
            link
            fedilink
            English
            553 months ago

            You could literally use google and find lots of stories talking about it. Here is a snippet from just one.

            THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT narrative surrounding the Palestinian prisoners being released during this temporary ceasefire is both insidious and dishonest. Interior Minister Itamar Ben Gvir has banned Palestinians from celebrating their release. “My instructions are clear: there are to be no expressions of joy,” he said. “Expressions of joy are equivalent to backing terrorism, victory celebrations give backing to those human scum, for those Nazis.” He told Israeli police to deploy an “iron fist” to enforce his edict. https://theintercept.com/2023/11/26/palestine-israel-prisoners/

            That is pretty fuckin clear.

            • @[email protected]
              link
              fedilink
              423 months ago

              My instructions are clear: there are to be no expressions of joy,” he said. “Expressions of joy are equivalent to backing terrorism"

              Wow. That is cartoonishly dystopian.

              • @Sparlock
                link
                fedilink
                English
                103 months ago

                Totally not channeling his inner Nazi… Yet there are still shitbags here twisting themselves in knots to defend everything Israel does.

              • @Sparlock
                link
                fedilink
                English
                143 months ago

                Ben Gvir is a special kind of evil, but unfortunately not so uncommon in the Israeli government.

          • @Sparlock
            link
            fedilink
            English
            53 months ago

            It was the first link in a search on Google. Calm your tits.

            • @Reddfugee42
              link
              fedilink
              -63 months ago

              “this source is untrustworthy”

              “WOAH CALM THE FUCK DOWN JESUS CHRIST WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU”

              • @Madison420
                link
                fedilink
                63 months ago

                No, they’re saying that’s a dumb response because it’s backed by multiple outlets. Sure one way be biased so… Do your own research. Or complain that it wasn’t handed to you tied up with a bow.

                • @Reddfugee42
                  link
                  fedilink
                  -23 months ago

                  That’s great but when they’re being calm and you’re being dramatic, maybe have a moment of self reflection before the pot tries to call the kettle black

            • @satans_crackpipe
              link
              fedilink
              -193 months ago

              You repeated propaganda from state run media. Get over yourself and your bruised ego.

              • @Sparlock
                link
                fedilink
                English
                83 months ago

                Hey look!
                It’s one of the shitbags I was mentioning in another comment!

                Just like clockwork to goosestep along with Ben Gvir.

                • @satans_crackpipe
                  link
                  fedilink
                  -23 months ago

                  Lol, you’re on one for sure. I had to lookup that name. He seems likes a nut just like Netanyahu.

      • @SpezBroughtMeHere
        link
        fedilink
        -63 months ago

        What makes any news showing Israel in a positive light propaganda and any news showing hamas in a positive light credible? Each side is saying the exact same thing about each other yet you chose to believe only one side as believable.

        • @TempermentalAnomaly
          link
          fedilink
          123 months ago

          What a simplistic interpretation of reporting during war times. Reductively representing all Palestinians as Hamas is willfully ignorant. The vast majority of people here are for the people under siege.

        • @Linkerbaan
          link
          fedilink
          8
          edit-2
          3 months ago

          They give sources and show evidence. That makes them credible.

          Also Aljazeera shows first hand accounts of Palestinian hostages telling their stories of torture in Israeli prison while all the israeli side gives us is “a hostages aunt said this definitely happened” while prohibiting the israeli hostages to speak to the media.

          Just because israel lies about everything you can’t go “well then surely the other side does too”.

        • @Maggoty
          link
          fedilink
          53 months ago

          Only one side can end this simply by going home. Hamas and Hezbollah have both publicly stated their only demand to end hostilities is that Israel stops it’s occupation.

          • @SpezBroughtMeHere
            link
            fedilink
            -23 months ago

            So then why did they attack first? What occupation? Living in your own country isn’t occupation.

            • @Maggoty
              link
              fedilink
              23 months ago

              Sorry but no. The rest of the world agreed that conquering land and calling it your own went out of style in May of 1945. You don’t get to put your own pictures on the wall and pretend you didn’t steal the house.

    • @thesilverpig
      link
      fedilink
      193 months ago

      I didn’t but I guess thanks for keeping me informed. Also distracts me from my problems which are minor in comparison.

  • @RGB3x3
    link
    fedilink
    English
    1583 months ago

    Watch carefully when you hear and see coverage about this. The people Israel had were “prisoners” while the people hamas had were “hostages.”

    This kind of subtle reframing of words happens all the time.

    CBS Nightly News had a story that talked about the 150% increase (don’t quote me on the actual percentage) in antisemitism acts, but anti Muslim sentiments were just “on the rise.”

    It’s a double standard depending on who they’re talking about.

    • @bowser1035
      link
      fedilink
      483 months ago

      The one that I saw was early on, after Hamas attacked, the news reported the number of deaths from “the Hamas invasion”. After that, when Israel retaliated and started killing Palestinians, the news was reporting “the total number killed since the beginning of the Hamas invasion”. They lumped all of the deaths from both sides together and framed it as if they were all attributed to Hamas, even though Israel had killed several times as many people by that point.

    • @Kbobabob
      link
      fedilink
      313 months ago

      It’s a double standard depending on who they’re talking about.

      Always has been, always.

    • @tamal3
      link
      fedilink
      63 months ago

      Also note that holding hostages is an international war crime, while keeping prisoners is not. I’ve regularly noticed this language choice on NPR (a public radio station in the US).

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      53 months ago

      Well ya. The Palestinians being released have been convicted of stabbing people. The Israelis were ripped from their homes.

      This isn’t an even swap, this is hostages for prisoners. Framing as a hostage exchange is dishonest entirely.

    • @SuckMyWang
      link
      fedilink
      3
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      Doesn’t being a prisoner imply they committed some sort of crime and that’s why they are being held whereas a hostage is someone who was living life minding their own business and are now being held. Another lemming pointed out that many of the Palestinian prisoner were being held without charge but not necessarily that they did nothing wrong - sounds like it could be abused but doesn’t automatically mean it is (probably at times though).

      As for the “double standard” from news reporting you’ve made big assumptions. News outlets use words to sensationalise and bend truths all the time but this works both ways. Without know the number for anti Muslim sentiment you can’t know. If anti Muslim sentiment had risen by 12% it wouldn’t be a big conspiracy to suggest that it was “on the rise” whereas a number like 150% is worth reporting especially in comparison to antimuslim if sentiment was only 12%.

      I’m not saying a double standard doesn’t exist I’m just saying you might have confirmation bias in these examples.

      • @Maggoty
        link
        fedilink
        73 months ago

        It implies a justice system with double standards convicted them. Americans who lived through Jim Crow can tell you exactly what that means for the legitimacy of that system.

        • @SuckMyWang
          link
          fedilink
          13 months ago

          It sounds shit tbh. I suppose I’m likening it to the people in Guantanamo bay who were never charged but held there (I’m not comparing those people to Palestinians only the legal situation). As wrong as the whole thing was I do believe some of the people there were terrible people and wanted to or did cause real harm to innocent people. The same goes for the Palestinians being held, not all though and it’s very bad to think of the ones being treated unfairly. I’m pointing out some of those people are being treated fairly

          • @[email protected]
            link
            fedilink
            23 months ago

            Considering two of the people who committed the recent murders in Jerusalem were released detainees, it really does prove that the detention is warranted at least in some cases.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        33 months ago

        Many of the “prisoners” haven’t been charged with a crime, which disputes their prisoner status.

        Most of the “hostages” are foreign settlers in disputed territory, which at a minimum disputes their civilian status.

    • @Maggoty
      link
      fedilink
      33 months ago

      Ohh yeah. Media lives to throw details into the bin in order to drive a narrative. I think it would take a soldier familiar with the rules on prisoners of war digging for information to realize that Hamas really tried to abide by those rules for their “hostages”. It is however still a very decentralized organization and they can’t enforce such things as well as a professional military.

    • @DoomBot5
      link
      fedilink
      English
      -53 months ago

      Yup, all these statements are accurate truths, that’s why those words are being used. Israel is releasing prisoners while Hamas is returning hostages.

    • @Deftdrummer
      link
      fedilink
      -26
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      Oh so now you’re starting to catch on to mainstream media’s blatant twisting of bullshit to fit their narrative?

      Please don’t tell me it’s just because you’re finally seeing something you disagree with in the news…

      They’ve been doing this to conservatives for years. But just now you see it …

      • @LotrOrc
        link
        fedilink
        203 months ago

        Pretty sure conservatives have been doing it to themselves by being bat shit insane recently and considering fox news is most conservatives holy Grail and is the most deceptive, lying piece of propaganda out there, its a bit funny to hear you say conservative voices are being shut down or twisted

      • @TokenBoomerOP
        link
        fedilink
        123 months ago

        That’s why I only watch Fox News. They don’t twist the narrative of conservatives. /s

      • @Maggoty
        link
        fedilink
        43 months ago

        Sorry but Jewish Space Lasers are only for really awesome parties. There’s no interface for election machines.

  • @[email protected]
    link
    fedilink
    1453 months ago

    I hate how people treat genocide and other crimes against humanity as a reason to take teams and treat it like “you’re either with team a or team b”.

    Any comment here criticizing one thing is taken as approval of “the other team” and I personally find that horrendous.

    • @postmateDumbass
      link
      fedilink
      413 months ago

      In America, we citizens haven’t had any significant question where we were presented with more than 2 options as long as i can remember.

      Manufactured consent.

    • GreenM
      link
      fedilink
      73 months ago

      Exactly. Folks just prefer extremes, As if they enjoy to keep conflic going.

      • @teejay
        link
        fedilink
        13 months ago

        Politics? Sports? Religion? Tribalism is pretty much everywhere, probably part of our ancestral hard wiring and DNA.

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      -53 months ago

      You’re intentionally obfuscating the reality. No one is actively taking sides with Hamas. People are simply voicing support for all of the children murdered by the IDF, which pales in comparison to any of the violence that Hamas has inflicted on Israel.

      • @Maggoty
        link
        fedilink
        103 months ago

        No I agree with them. Demanding a public release of actual evidence to justify bombing hospitals has gotten me called a terrorist more times than I care to count.

    • @t_jpeg
      link
      fedilink
      -58
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      I bet you feel enlightened with your centrist take.

      I don’t know if you realise but people can acknowledge that Hamas did bad things to civilians as well as Israel. The difference is some people can also acknowledge that the only reason Hamas exists is because Israel is a settler colonial state. Without Israel’s crimes against humanity, there would be no need for Hamas to exist. People also have the ability to recognise the western media’s attempt to falsely equivocate “both sides” when one is a genocidal attempt at an ethnostate backed by the most powerful nation the world has ever seen (and friends) and the other is a reaction to this.

      “For forty years you try to strangle us. And then you criticize us for the way we breathe” ~ Fidel Castro.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        74
        edit-2
        3 months ago

        Enlightened? Because I said I hate that people are using genocide as an excuse to take one of two sides? The situation isn’t even encompassed in two sides, the country, the government and the people (and in the case of Palestine, also Hamas) are being treated as one monolithic beings with one agreeing mind each when they are not.

        I’m sorry if your “if you’re not with me, you’re against me, here’s a quote from a historical figure” routine didn’t pressure me into trivializing crimes against humanity.

        Edit: I’d like to point out how I’ve been called centrist for acknowledging there aren’t two sides and this isn’t a sport event deserving of fans.

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          23 months ago

          Who is supporting Hamas? People have to be supporting Hamas for your original comment to be valid. The vast majority of people are clamoring for ceasefires and humanitarian pauses so that the Palestinian children can stop being murdered.

        • @t_jpeg
          link
          fedilink
          -123 months ago

          It’s conversations like this that confuse me because who exactly is commiting genocide? I’m calling the take centrist because you’re making out as if both sides are guilty of genocide when it literally is only one side (the government of Israel, the organisation that the original post refers to). It is a false equivalence. But if you think by me stating support for the liberation of indigenous Palestinians is making it a team sport where I’m somehow trivializing genocide then so be it, that’s what you think.

          • @samus12345
            link
            fedilink
            English
            153 months ago

            Hamas’s goal is the destruction of Israel through terrorism. The only thing keeping them from committing genocide (as Israel is capable of) is not having the resources to do so. Both sides want to eradicate the other, but one side is much more capable of doing so. That doesn’t mean that Hamas is somehow less bad.

              • @samus12345
                link
                fedilink
                English
                23 months ago

                No one should be supporting Israel’s goverment, either.

            • @Linkerbaan
              link
              fedilink
              -1
              edit-2
              3 months ago

              Hamas’s goal is to end the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians. There is nothing genocidal about this.

              There are Christians living in Gaza and Hamas isn’t committing some crazy religious cleansing on them either. Their problem is with Zionist oppression.

                • @Linkerbaan
                  link
                  fedilink
                  -2
                  edit-2
                  3 months ago

                  Resisting an oppressive fascist ethno-state trying to colonize your land and murder your population is the opposite of genocide.

                  What you’re saying is like saying Ukrainians fighting against Russia for their freedom is Genocide.

            • @t_jpeg
              link
              fedilink
              -63 months ago

              If a 16th century Native American wanted to destroy the government of the United States of America, would you say they were wrong?

              Hamas’ blatant anti-semitism towards all ethnic jews is wrong. Hamas’ desire for Israel to not be a nation anymore is justified.

              • @[email protected]
                link
                fedilink
                153 months ago

                If a 16th century Native American wanted to destroy the government of the United States of America, would you say they were wrong?

                Depends if they attack the government or civilians. Palestine has a right to defend itself, the hamas strategy is not exercising that right just like the idf isn’t exercising their right to defend and instead are committing genocide. That’s the point. Hamas would have my full sympathy and support if their strategy wasn’t terrorism.

                • @t_jpeg
                  link
                  fedilink
                  73 months ago

                  I don’t support Hamas just like you don’t. I don’t support the death of civilians, Israeli or Palestinian. What I have a problem with in the general sentiment of this thread is people acting as if the Israeli government’s actions are not the cause of this war. Hamas would not exist if the Israeli government never oppressed Palestinian people first. The PLO wouldn’t exist if the Israeli government didn’t oppress Palestinian people first. Hamas killing innocent civilians wouldn’t have happened if the Israeli govrnement never tried to genocide Palestinians. You can argue that Hamas would commit genocide if they could, but the fact is Israel is the one commiting genocide at the moment. Making out as if both need equal condemning (although they need condemning nonetheless) is equivalent to giving a bully the same punishment as the victim who fights back. They are simply not the same.

                  Fuck Hamas and fuck Israel. But especially fuck Israel.

              • @[email protected]
                link
                fedilink
                English
                123 months ago

                I’m confused at your tone. it seems like there’s more fundamental agreeing here than disagreeing. yes, one side has more power and has recklessly abused that power. but they both want to destroy each other’s people, including innocent civilians. that’s objectively terrible and is why there is no good side to take.

          • @[email protected]
            link
            fedilink
            103 months ago

            If conversations like this confuse you, why confidently share your opinions in a public forum on a subject that, by your own admission, confuse you?

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        323 months ago

        The definition of a centrist is completely lost on you if you think the comment you’re replying to is a centrist comment.

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          -13 months ago

          It’s literally both sidesing the issue by saying that both sides are equally to blame. The comment intentionally creates a lack of nuance by making it seem like this internet firestorm are Hamas vs IDF supporters.

      • @yesman
        link
        fedilink
        123 months ago

        You’re framing Hamas as being merely a reaction to Israel’s aggression, when they actively work, sometimes in collaboration with Netanyahu1, to maintain the status quo and insure they’re own relevance and power. You’re right that Hamas wouldn’t have a purpose without the occupation, and Hamas knows it.

        Hamas isn’t a path to Palestinian freedom, they’re an obstacle to it. Hamas are motherfuckers; don’t defend them.

        If we say Israel is responsible for the destruction wrought on her own people in reaction to her crimes, then we must hold Hamas to that standard too. But following logic like this makes everybody and nobody responsible and implies that Israel controls the terrorists and Hamas runs the IDF. It’s also precisely the Justification Netanyahu uses for the bombing.

        At the end of the day, Israel is the party with the power to stop this cycle, and that is where I think we should put our attention.

        1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/26/netanyahu-hamas-israel-gaza/
        • @Maggoty
          link
          fedilink
          33 months ago

          Hamas was literally formed as a reaction to Israeli war crimes against Palestinians in the 1980’s.

          And of the two they’re the one that publicly showed a moderating trend, only to have their attempts rebuffed in the mid 2000’s.

          They aren’t nice people but understanding how they got where they are clearly tells us to stop supporting Israel.

        • @t_jpeg
          link
          fedilink
          13 months ago

          Thanks for the info I wanted to access the article but it’s blocked by a paywall/ email submission to view which I’m not too keen on doing. I know Israel had funded Hamas to maintain its own status quo many years ago but wasn’t privy to the possibility it may still be happening. Was wondering if you had any other sources on this?

      • @assassin_aragorn
        link
        fedilink
        113 months ago

        There’s literally no disagreement between you two. You’re saying the same as them, but adding a historical context of how we got here. That really doesn’t change condemnation of both nor finding the team sports here disgusting.

    • @ladicius
      link
      fedilink
      403 months ago

      It’s pretty easy. They basically keep them in cages.

  • @Doorbook
    link
    fedilink
    573 months ago

    People who say they violated the laws here, don’t understand what is mean to be apartheid state.

    These state have laws and regulations that basically push groups of people until they leave the country or extents.

    I would recommend reading more because any ruling party in your country can easily create laws to discriminate against a group of people that could be you.

    • @dejected_warp_core
      link
      fedilink
      153 months ago

      Yup. I’ll put this here for those that need the explanation:

      • Morals
      • Ethics
      • Laws

      These often overlap but are fundamentally different things.

      For instance, a country can be morally bankrupt, value a strong code of ethics, and have laws that have nothing to do with either.

      Also, you often need to compare entire cultures before you can see problems with equivocating any of the three.

    • @Maggoty
      link
      fedilink
      73 months ago

      Yeah the stories, even from IDF veterans, are hair raising. Stuff like rousting Palestinian families every night. And any hint of aggression in response is heavily punished. There is no justice in this system.

      • @Linkerbaan
        link
        fedilink
        13 months ago

        Saw one yesterday that they threw tear gas into their hostages cells. The irony of Zionists gassing people…

      • @lazyvar
        link
        fedilink
        243 months ago

        I love how you linked to an anti-Palestinian subreddit that ran out of “unprovoked” stabbings for their little propaganda clip, so they just included two examples of Palestinians being hassled by Israelis for good measure (security guard and police respectively).

        Meanwhile, the Israeli government themselves published a list of 300 people eligible for hostage exchange on which 80% were listed without charge or conviction.

        And that’s not even touching upon the whole “administrative detention” nonsense, nor the physical, mental and sexual abuse of children in between torture.

        So either you’re purposefully ignorant in pretending that all of the hostages are violent offenders, or you’re in favor of collective punishment.

        The latter would be a rather untenable position, because that logic would mean you condone the hostage taking of Israeli civilians for the acts of their government (more so when you consider the conscription laws in Israel).

        • @NevermindNoMind
          link
          fedilink
          103 months ago

          Yikes, I encourage everyone to read that Save the Children report linked. What’s really fucked up about that, besides to abuse obviously, is that Isreal is a democracy. With saudia arabia and china and whatever other countries with flagrant human rights abuses, you cut the citizens some slack because they’re living under varying degrees of dictatorship. But Isreal is a democracy, the citizens apparently fine with holding children in military black sites for throwing rocks, beating them, sexually abusing them, depriving them of food, water, and legal representation, throwing them in solitary confinement and so on. The Israeli people could stop this, but they choose not to.

          Anyway, back to watching our “lessor evil” president write these monsters another giant check for precision guided hospital seekijg bombs. Hmm perhaps I answered my own complaint.

          • @[email protected]
            link
            fedilink
            English
            6
            edit-2
            3 months ago

            I agree except most Israelis do not support their leader or government, support is at all time lows, just 25% according to some recent poll. Being a democracy does not automatically mean the government is doing the will of the people. Especially when their government discriminates against their own citizens.

            Many of the rights you are accorded in Israel stem from your nationality, not your citizenship. Your nationality is determined by your ethnicity and it cannot be changed or challenged.

            Meaning an “Arab” Israeli citizen and a Jewish Israeli citizen, while both citizens, enjoy different rights and privileges determined by their “nationality”. This is not merely discrimination in practice, but discrimination by law.

            This is intentional. It is an ethnic democracy executing the will of one ethnicity over another. It puts the power in the hands of those who are most likely to be indifferent to the plight of the Palestinians, and takes power away from dissenting voices.

            https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/israel-is-a-democracy/

            • @Pipoca
              link
              fedilink
              33 months ago

              Many of the rights you are accorded in Israel stem from your nationality not your citizenship. Meaning an “Arab” Israeli citizen and a Jewish Israeli citizen, while both citizens, enjoy different rights and privileges determined by their “nationality” [You can read more about this here].

              (Aside - that seems to just link me to the top of that article? Is that a bug on my phone or just weird site design)

              This is not merely discrimination in practice, but discrimination by law. Adalah have composed a database of discriminatory laws in Israel that disfavor non-Jewish Israelis. For example, the Law of Return and Absentees’ Property Law are but two examples of flagrant racism and discrimination in the Israeli legal system.

              Is it just me, or is it really weird that the two headline laws the article touts don’t seem to apply to Israeli citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity?

              The law of return favors Jewish non-Israelis over non-Jewish non-Israelis seeking Israeli citizenship, sure. But it only applies to non-Israeli citizens, literally by definition.

              Similarly, from what I understand, doesn’t the absentee property law apply to the property of non-Israeli citizens that was “abandoned” during the early days of Israel? It doesn’t seem to make it easier for the government to seize the property of current Arab-Israeli citizens than Jewish Israeli citizens.

              The stuff about the JNF lower down is pretty concerning, but that paragraph stuck out as being a bait-and-switch.

              • @[email protected]
                link
                fedilink
                English
                23 months ago

                You made some good points and it’s fair to be skeptical of the link I posted. I also noticed that they linked to the same page, whether that’s a mistake or international I don’t know.

                There is a working link on that page to laws which are intended to thwart terrorists but because of vague language they can be abused to suppress anyone deemed to be a threat.This is far from a smoking gun, but the claims seem plausible.

          • @Maggoty
            link
            fedilink
            33 months ago

            Yes and No. Netanyahu has had to keep running farther and farther right to find support. At this point it is debatable that most Israelis support him. (Even before this attack.) He is resorting to election interference and passing laws to silence the courts.

            Israelis also protest his policies pretty routinely.

      • @TokenBoomerOP
        link
        fedilink
        163 months ago

        Roughly 80% of those on the list were not convicted of any crimes. They were either charged with crimes that had not yet been prosecuted, or were detained under a practice known as administrative detention, whereby Israel holds Palestinians in the occupied territories with no formal charges or evidence presented against them.

        Source

      • EvilZionistEatingChildren
        link
        fedilink
        -33 months ago

        Come on buddy, Hams aren’t real terrorists! Their knives are in caramelised sugar and their bullets are marshmallows

        Evil apartheid-istic Israel on the other hand…

        /s

  • @Cyo
    link
    fedilink
    373 months ago

    Israel became worse than Hamas. I’m not saying Hamas are the good guys, both sides have killed civilians.