Monolinguistic people rarely realise just how overtly ethnocentric they’re being. Guess it’s hard to see when you don’t have any other languages to think in.
and it also probably helps when you’re classifying humans separately to animals for the purpose of a semantical argument, where classifying humans as animals would only cause further problems.
Along with the fact that it’s arguably hate speech to some degree to refer to certain groups of people as animals separately from others, but this isn’t relevant.
How hard would it have been to just refrain from the word English in that sentence? Why did you feel the need to add it? Does “animals don’t speak” somehow not convey the meaning of that? (Genuine questions, not sarcasm.)
are you actually genuinely mad at me for this? And yes, “animals don’t speak” doesn’t convey it properly, because animals literally do speak, they just don’t speak the same kind of interpreted languages that humans often do, though we have taught monke sign language a couple of times, so there’s that, which might count i guess. (though it’s not particularly fluent, or communicative)
But generally, for all intents and purposes, for this semantic argument, no, they don’t speak spoken languages, with semantic meanings, and rooted histories. The same way that humans do “english” for example.
This is like being mad at someone for talking about transportation, and using cars as an example, because they like cars, or drive one all the time. It’s just the basic bias of existing as a human being, where being impartial to literally everything that ever exists, at any point in time, is quite literally impossible.
There are lots of parrots who can clearly utter recognizable English, so yes, there are animals who speak English. On what level can they understand the language they use, that’s another question entirely. Which more or less was my point in replying to you. :)
yes technically parrots can recognize, and recreate sounds, it’s not that they understand english, or words, or language. It’s that they’re capable of recreating vocal anomalies of human speech, pretty well. Likewise, i can also mimic someone else speaking in another language, or just individual words, but that doesn’t mean that i’m speaking the language. In order for me to speak that language, i need to be able to communicate in some commonly understood and defined dialect, that other people can understand, such that i’m capable of understanding them as well. Parrots cannot do this.
regardless, my point was that animals have their own code of ethics, independent from the human concept of ethics, as defined in languages like english, which i used as the example, because i don’t know if you know, ethics, is an english word. It comes from the english language. I’m just using the system relevant to the words i’m speaking about. It’d be a little weird if i was using fucking C the programming language, as an example of language, wouldn’t it?
and it also probably helps when you’re classifying humans separately to animals for the purpose of a semantical argument
Nice try but the implication of animals being distinct was quite clear. The point is that there was absolutely no need to add the extra “English” to the end of “animals don’t speak [English]”, and actually omitting it would’ve made the sentence more inclusive and less prescriptively wrong. Even less wrong would’ve been to say “animals don’t have language”, although we’re actually not a 100% on that, given that there are definite communications. We’re having a hard time defining what level we’re on ourself and where we came from to be able to understand a similar evolution happening on an entirely different branch of evolution.
Along with the fact that it’s arguably hate speech to some degree to refer to certain groups of people as animals separately from others,
Is it? Is it really? Because I don’t think it is in any way, unless it’s explicitly hate speech that you’re doing in the context, and then anything in that context is hate speech. So you think no-one should ever refer to “Finnish people” for instance, because they would be doing a hate-speech on me, eh? Or that you can’t talk about the differences between European and American cultures, as you can’t refer to people separately without it being hate speech?
no, they don’t speak spoken languages, with semantic meanings, and rooted histories. The same way that humans do “english” for example.
But see, they do. They do speak the same way, but language isn’t just about speech. Speech is only a part of language. You seem to be having trouble seeing those two concepts as different from each other. Animals can speak, ie remember and use words.
yes technically parrots can recognize, and recreate sounds, it’s not that they understand english, or words, or language. It’s that they’re capable of recreating vocal anomalies of human speech, pretty well. Likewise, i can also mimic someone else speaking in another language, or just individual words, but that doesn’t mean that i’m speaking the language. In order for me to speak that language, i need to be able to communicate in some commonly understood and defined dialect, that other people can understand, such that i’m capable of understanding them as well. Parrots cannot do this.
See, this is sort of my core point that came out very strongly from just you having had to use “English” in your sentence. You’re ignorant, but you don’t like to think of yourself as ignorant. You’re intellectually lazy, but you don’t like thinking about yourself that way. So you pretend you’re not.
First off, I already gave you way more information on the subject, which clearly you didn’t even open let alone peruse although it’s a very in-depth dive to what properties of languages we’ve observed animals using and how much do we understand about how they understand their own understanding. And that sort of thing. Anyway, with just 30 secs in Google you’d find the most famous parrots on the matter:
Alex had a vocabulary of over 100 words,[17] but was exceptional in that he appeared to have understanding of what he said. For example, when Alex was shown an object and asked about its shape, color, or material, he could label it correctly.[15] He could describe a key as a key no matter what its size or color, and could determine how the key was different from others.[7] Looking at a mirror, he said “what color”, and learned the word “grey” after being told “grey” six times.[18] This made him the first non-human animal to have ever asked a question, let alone an existential one (apes who have been trained to use sign-language have so far failed to ever ask a single question).[19]
Alex was said to have understood the turn-taking of communication and sometimes the syntax used in language.[14] He named an apple a “banerry” (pronounced as rhyming with some pronunciations of “canary”), which a linguist friend of Pepperberg’s thought to be a combination of “banana” and “cherry”, two fruits he was more familiar with.[18]
You were saying that " i need to be able to communicate in some commonly understood and defined dialect, that other people can understand, such that i’m capable of understanding them as well. Parrots cannot do this."?
because i don’t know if you know, ethics, is an english word. It comes from the english language.
I’ve more than likely been using English for longer than you have, and I’m sorry to say you got it wrong again.
“Ethics” as word with the very same meaning it has today was spoken aloud long before English was a thing. It actually comes from Greek, through Latin.
late 14c., ethik “study of morals,” from Old French etique “ethics, moral philosophy” (13c.), from Late Latin ethica, from Greek ēthike philosophia “moral philosophy,” fem. of ēthikos “ethical, pertaining to character,” from ēthos “moral character,” related to ēthos “custom” (see ethos). Meaning “moral principles of a person or group” is attested from 1650s.
You make bold assumptions which I don’t see have much scientific basis in them. Like yes, animals have their “own” ethics and one could make the argument that all ethics are subjective and no such thing exists as objective ethics. However, saying they’re “wholly independent” might be a reach, since we know that we share some of our most fundamental concepts of what is “unfair” with some of our close cousins.
My point is that you should look question yourself a bit more and be open to other people actually knowing what your’e speaking about, and adding to it, instead of thinking everyone is always arguing against you.
yes technically parrots can recognize, and recreate sounds, it’s not that they understand english, or words, or language. It’s that they’re capable of recreating vocal anomalies of human speech, pretty well. Likewise, i can also mimic someone else speaking in another language, or just individual words, but that doesn’t mean that i’m speaking the language.
You’re repeating the age-old myth of “parrots just parrot, they don’t actually understand anything they parrot”.
This is decidedly untrue, and there’s heaps of science behind that. A lot of which I have shown you. So that assertion is proved untrue, ie “wrong”.
ethics, is an english word. It comes from the english language.
This is also just plain wrong. It’s a Greek word that comes to English from Latin. So not an English word, actually. (See my first point about monolinguistic speakers often being a bit ethnocentric. Not your fault, one language is limiting in more ways than one.)
Parrots can indeed speak, but to what extent do they actually understand the language, or have grammar? That’s the video I linked in my very first reply.
You’re repeating the age-old myth of “parrots just parrot, they don’t actually understand anything they parrot”.
This is decidedly untrue, and there’s heaps of science behind that. A lot of which I have shown you. So that assertion is proved untrue, ie “wrong”.
show me someone conversing with a parrot in a legible manner and i will believe you. I also handed you a much better example to use anyway.
This is also just plain wrong. It’s a Greek word that comes to English from Latin.
most prominent languages are based on latin, and latin is literally dead. Also technically if we’re being pedantic here, like you are, it’s not from latin, because latin isn’t the premiere progenitor of all language. Latin itself is actually a massive hodge podge of other various lingual devices, as are most languages.
But judging by your level of intellectual prowess, english isn’t a real language, because it steals words and grammar from other languages, often in non sensical mannerisms, that are inconsistent with it’s own grammatical constructions. Which is ironically, a fair statement, because english is a fucking mess.
Maybe bilingual people just don’t have a very multinational view of the world when it comes to history, and how it tends to play out, i don’t know though, because i follow history from time to time.
(See my first point about monolinguistic speakers often being a bit ethnocentric. Not your fault, one language is limiting in more ways than one.)
again this is like me getting into an older american car, to go somewhere, because it’s a car that i like and i drive it, because it’s reliable, only for you to inform me that i’m actually pretentious for using an american car because “there are other countries that manufacture cars” you keep acting like the one fucking statement that i made in passing is the arbiter of truth, solely defining every logical facet of the world. It’s not that deep, i’m just expressing my thoughts in a rather terse manner to get my point across without typing three fucking pages of text on the etymological history of every fucking word i’m using for fear that someone thinks i only understand english, and don’t understand the totality of all history ever, because otherwise “i would look like a dumbass”
Parrots can indeed speak, but to what extent do they actually understand the language, or have grammar? That’s the video I linked in my very first reply.
this is also literally what i re-iterated. I didn’t watch the video or click on any links, because unless you’re going to present it to me in a genuine manner that isn’t just trying to patronize me, i don’t really give a fuck to be honest. Maybe if you had read what i had written, you would understand this.
Can animals grammar? – introduction to my animated series which goes deep in just what the capabilities are, because there is a lot of debate in the science world.
you know it’s funny that you mention this, because in the very first post that i made, i’m pretty sure i literally said “animals have methods of communication, it’s just not the same way that we do, I.E. english” or something along those lines. And i’m pretty fucking sure i reiterated that multiple times.
Thoguht you might be interested, but guess you’re more interested in “winning” a conversation than actually having one.
it’s kind of interesting, and i’d like to discuss it, but it’s also hard to discuss something when literally everything you say is disputed for the purposes of “uhm nah actually ur wrong, because here’s a technicality where it’s actually kind of sort of wrong, and you should feel bad because i’m better than you” but maybe you don’t intend it that way, in which case, that’s how it fucking reads.
Am i brazen? Yes, i feel i’m being equally as brazen as you are though.
Edit lol replied to myself accidentally. Meant to put this at the bottom end of the thread.
and it also probably helps when you’re classifying humans separately to animals for the purpose of a semantical argument, where classifying humans as animals would only cause further problems.
Along with the fact that it’s arguably hate speech to some degree to refer to certain groups of people as animals separately from others, but this isn’t relevant.
are you actually genuinely mad at me for this? And yes, “animals don’t speak” doesn’t convey it properly, because animals literally do speak, they just don’t speak the same kind of interpreted languages that humans often do, though we have taught monke sign language a couple of times, so there’s that, which might count i guess. (though it’s not particularly fluent, or communicative)
But generally, for all intents and purposes, for this semantic argument, no, they don’t speak spoken languages, with semantic meanings, and rooted histories. The same way that humans do “english” for example.
This is like being mad at someone for talking about transportation, and using cars as an example, because they like cars, or drive one all the time. It’s just the basic bias of existing as a human being, where being impartial to literally everything that ever exists, at any point in time, is quite literally impossible.
yes technically parrots can recognize, and recreate sounds, it’s not that they understand english, or words, or language. It’s that they’re capable of recreating vocal anomalies of human speech, pretty well. Likewise, i can also mimic someone else speaking in another language, or just individual words, but that doesn’t mean that i’m speaking the language. In order for me to speak that language, i need to be able to communicate in some commonly understood and defined dialect, that other people can understand, such that i’m capable of understanding them as well. Parrots cannot do this.
regardless, my point was that animals have their own code of ethics, independent from the human concept of ethics, as defined in languages like english, which i used as the example, because i don’t know if you know, ethics, is an english word. It comes from the english language. I’m just using the system relevant to the words i’m speaking about. It’d be a little weird if i was using fucking C the programming language, as an example of language, wouldn’t it?
Nice try but the implication of animals being distinct was quite clear. The point is that there was absolutely no need to add the extra “English” to the end of “animals don’t speak [English]”, and actually omitting it would’ve made the sentence more inclusive and less prescriptively wrong. Even less wrong would’ve been to say “animals don’t have language”, although we’re actually not a 100% on that, given that there are definite communications. We’re having a hard time defining what level we’re on ourself and where we came from to be able to understand a similar evolution happening on an entirely different branch of evolution.
Is it? Is it really? Because I don’t think it is in any way, unless it’s explicitly hate speech that you’re doing in the context, and then anything in that context is hate speech. So you think no-one should ever refer to “Finnish people” for instance, because they would be doing a hate-speech on me, eh? Or that you can’t talk about the differences between European and American cultures, as you can’t refer to people separately without it being hate speech?
But see, they do. They do speak the same way, but language isn’t just about speech. Speech is only a part of language. You seem to be having trouble seeing those two concepts as different from each other. Animals can speak, ie remember and use words.
See, this is sort of my core point that came out very strongly from just you having had to use “English” in your sentence. You’re ignorant, but you don’t like to think of yourself as ignorant. You’re intellectually lazy, but you don’t like thinking about yourself that way. So you pretend you’re not.
First off, I already gave you way more information on the subject, which clearly you didn’t even open let alone peruse although it’s a very in-depth dive to what properties of languages we’ve observed animals using and how much do we understand about how they understand their own understanding. And that sort of thing. Anyway, with just 30 secs in Google you’d find the most famous parrots on the matter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot)
You were saying that " i need to be able to communicate in some commonly understood and defined dialect, that other people can understand, such that i’m capable of understanding them as well. Parrots cannot do this."?
This must be a deepfake then
I’ve more than likely been using English for longer than you have, and I’m sorry to say you got it wrong again.
“Ethics” as word with the very same meaning it has today was spoken aloud long before English was a thing. It actually comes from Greek, through Latin.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/ethic
You make bold assumptions which I don’t see have much scientific basis in them. Like yes, animals have their “own” ethics and one could make the argument that all ethics are subjective and no such thing exists as objective ethics. However, saying they’re “wholly independent” might be a reach, since we know that we share some of our most fundamental concepts of what is “unfair” with some of our close cousins.
My point is that you should look question yourself a bit more and be open to other people actually knowing what your’e speaking about, and adding to it, instead of thinking everyone is always arguing against you.
ok cool so we’re just shitposting now
You’re repeating the age-old myth of “parrots just parrot, they don’t actually understand anything they parrot”.
This is decidedly untrue, and there’s heaps of science behind that. A lot of which I have shown you. So that assertion is proved untrue, ie “wrong”.
This is also just plain wrong. It’s a Greek word that comes to English from Latin. So not an English word, actually. (See my first point about monolinguistic speakers often being a bit ethnocentric. Not your fault, one language is limiting in more ways than one.)
Parrots can indeed speak, but to what extent do they actually understand the language, or have grammar? That’s the video I linked in my very first reply.
This:
Can animals grammar? – introduction to my animated series which goes deep in just what the capabilities are, because there is a lot of debate in the science world.
Thoguht you might be interested, but guess you’re more interested in “winning” a conversation than actually having one.
Edit lol replied to myself accidentally. Meant to put this at the bottom end of the thread.
show me someone conversing with a parrot in a legible manner and i will believe you. I also handed you a much better example to use anyway.
most prominent languages are based on latin, and latin is literally dead. Also technically if we’re being pedantic here, like you are, it’s not from latin, because latin isn’t the premiere progenitor of all language. Latin itself is actually a massive hodge podge of other various lingual devices, as are most languages.
But judging by your level of intellectual prowess, english isn’t a real language, because it steals words and grammar from other languages, often in non sensical mannerisms, that are inconsistent with it’s own grammatical constructions. Which is ironically, a fair statement, because english is a fucking mess.
Maybe bilingual people just don’t have a very multinational view of the world when it comes to history, and how it tends to play out, i don’t know though, because i follow history from time to time.
again this is like me getting into an older american car, to go somewhere, because it’s a car that i like and i drive it, because it’s reliable, only for you to inform me that i’m actually pretentious for using an american car because “there are other countries that manufacture cars” you keep acting like the one fucking statement that i made in passing is the arbiter of truth, solely defining every logical facet of the world. It’s not that deep, i’m just expressing my thoughts in a rather terse manner to get my point across without typing three fucking pages of text on the etymological history of every fucking word i’m using for fear that someone thinks i only understand english, and don’t understand the totality of all history ever, because otherwise “i would look like a dumbass”
this is also literally what i re-iterated. I didn’t watch the video or click on any links, because unless you’re going to present it to me in a genuine manner that isn’t just trying to patronize me, i don’t really give a fuck to be honest. Maybe if you had read what i had written, you would understand this.
you know it’s funny that you mention this, because in the very first post that i made, i’m pretty sure i literally said “animals have methods of communication, it’s just not the same way that we do, I.E. english” or something along those lines. And i’m pretty fucking sure i reiterated that multiple times.
it’s kind of interesting, and i’d like to discuss it, but it’s also hard to discuss something when literally everything you say is disputed for the purposes of “uhm nah actually ur wrong, because here’s a technicality where it’s actually kind of sort of wrong, and you should feel bad because i’m better than you” but maybe you don’t intend it that way, in which case, that’s how it fucking reads.
Am i brazen? Yes, i feel i’m being equally as brazen as you are though.
officially a shitpost now lmao