Google, which has an ambitious plan to address climate change with cleaner operations, came nowhere close to its goals last year, according to the company’s annual Environmental Report Tuesday.
there’s this type of reply guy on fedi lately who does the “well actually querying LLMs only happens in bursts and training is much more efficient than you’d think and nvidia says their gpus are energy-efficient” thing whenever the topic comes up
and meanwhile a bunch of major companies have violated their climate pledges and say it’s due to AI, they’re planning power plants specifically for data centers expanded for the push into AI, and large GPUs are notoriously the part of a computer that consumes the most power and emits a ton of heat (which notoriously has to be cooled in a way that wastes and pollutes a fuckton of clean water)
but the companies don’t publish smoking gun energy usage statistics on LLMs and generative AI specifically so who can say
I joined the Microsoft climate solutions team, I think doing so has crushed all my hopes. That team is doing small things like “let’s all go plastic free for July!”
Top 20 company in the world and the best we can do is go plastic free for a month?
Meanwhile MSFT is not on course to meet their own climate goal by 2030
“It only uses 5x as much energy as a regular search! Think of how much energy YOU’RE using with searches!” Okay, so you’re just using 5x as much energy for worse results? And also probably doing it more often than people who just use a normal search engine, because they don’t expect the search engine to talk to them. I’ve never understood how that was supposed to be an exoneration for it, even without taking into account that nobody ever seems to know whether or not that figure includes energy spent on training.
there’s this type of reply guy on fedi lately who does the “well actually querying LLMs only happens in bursts and training is much more efficient than you’d think and nvidia says their gpus are energy-efficient” thing whenever the topic comes up
This kind of person (also happened a lot with cryptocurrencies) always goes ‘that isn’t how it works, this isn’t a problem’ then doesn’t explain what the mistake is you are supposed to have made, and then a few weeks/months/days/search later it is revealed that it was how it works and it is a huge problem. And it is so annoyingly common im very happy with the moderation here.
I just want to be able to legally punch people who think NFTs would bring down TicketMaster. It’s the peak of not understanding how things work and injecting a solution just because it’s high tech.
it’s so common that I wish there was a specific name to put to that and every other type of reply guy that cryptocurrencies, chan culture, and meme stocks “gifted” us. it feels like the bullshit tactics cropped up faster than anyone really was able to catalog them, though a lot of them are really recognizable when you’ve seen them a few times.
jeez fuck this is just reality negationism at this point
you could snipe it down with canned response like r/buttcoin does (there are only so many types of these people), and it could count as a win because reply guy isn’t there to win debate, he’s there to spread his propaganda, but here, it’s too much effort for no gain because nobody will be swayed anyway
I live in Ireland and these companies keep trying to build data centres here even though they are using way too much of our energy as is :)) From an Irish environmental org:
A few years ago when researching new gas power stations in Ireland, we noticed that many of these developments were being proposed alongside another type of infrastructure: data centres. […] As of June 2023, there are 82 operational data centres in Ireland, with another 14 under construction. Additionally, 40 data centres have had planning permission approved with another 12 awaiting a decision. […] Data centres account for 18% of all electricity use in Ireland […] This is putting unprecedented strain on the electricity grid, with grid operator Eirgrid estimating that data centres may account for up to 27% of Ireland’s electricity demand by 2028. The Commission for Regulation of Utilities (CRU) in Ireland has noted a risk of rolling electricity blackouts…
ah yes, ireland, the land of just-close-enough to LIXP/TH(D|E)/etc but with different-enough property prices and power capabilities to make it very attractive to the discerning dc builder
(there’s also some of the tax regs shit but aiui that isn’t as gaping a hole as it used to be)
We’re actually having a housing crisis at the moment (like everywhere else) so I dunno about property prices…I think it’s the extremely receptive attitude of the Irish government.
Yeah imo Ireland has never had a left-wing government, we tend towards right-populist/right centrist/neoliberal. “Stable but shit” is how I described it to my brother just this hour gone while discussing politics. We’re currently seeing the beginnings of an organized racist right as well
I always thought data centers ran clean and dirty loops of cooling (as far as computers are concerned).
The clean loop has all the chemicals and whatnot to keep cooling blocks and tubing “safe”. The dirty side is just plain old water. And a big heat exchanger transfers the heat from the clean (hot) loop to the “dirty” (cold) side.
Is there really that much pollution in that? Can’t be worse than rain going through storm drains or whatever.
But AI does use a phenomenal amount of power.
And, IMO, it’s a problem compared to the lack of value people are getting from AI.
The new Blackwell B200 consumes 1.2kw of power, and will produce 1.2kw of heat.
A cooling system with a COP of 5 needs to consume 240w to dissipate this.
The backplane for the B200 holds 8 of these GPUs in a 10 RU space, and with overheads will peak 14.3kw (cooling would be 3kw consumption).
So, a 42u data center rack with 3 of these, supporting hardware and UPS efficiencies (80%) is going to be 52kw (+10kw cooling). 62kw total, which is like 4 homes drawing their full load all the time.
I hope they finally find an application for AI, instead of just constantly chasing the dragon with more training, more parameters, more performance etc.
The last part is absolutely false. The Nvidia H100 TDP is like 700W, though ostensibly configurable. The B200 is 1000W. The AMD MI300X is 750W.
They also skimp on RAM with many SKUs so you have to buy the higher clocked ones.
They run in insane power bands just to eek out a tiny bit more performance. If they ran at like a third of their power, I bet they would be at least twice as power efficient, and power use scales over nonlinearly with voltage/clock speed.
But no, just pedal to the metal. Run the silicon as hard as it can, and screw power consumption.
Other AI companies like Cerebras are much better, running at quite sane voltages. Ironically (or perhaps smartly), the Saudis invested in them.
(notably posted at a 7min delta after the other comment with oh so specific details, and just entirely dismissing the man behind the curtain as to the plurality of compute involved)
There is currently a barrage of AI hate getting spewed out by most media (not manufactured, don’t worry, it’s all organic and you aren’t being manipulated) but this has to be the stupidest one. The grid should be able to take whatever energy we throw at it and shouldn’t be running this dirty in this day and age. Our problem is corrupt politicians and the oil and coal industry, this is nothing but a scape goat.
this type of reply guy on fedi lately
I guess that’s an easy way to ignore all dissenting opinion. I doubt you want to listen but here goes anyways:
It is more energy efficient to run it on big cards than have individuals use their own GPU (even though I personally like the open models running on my own computer). That’s what the reply guy was actually trying to tell you.
GPUs do consume a lot of power, they are also used in many things. Would you ever think for a second to post something similar about gaming or rendering? Of course not.
Cooling systems cycle the water, they are closed loop systems.
Meta posted all the energy ii took to train llama, it’s a lot but not that much when you actually look at the amount of people using it. A lot of industries do this, I suggest you look up the data on your favorite gaming companies so you can compare in case your opinion is overblown. I did some napkin math the other day and the energy usage to train llama (used by millions currently) was about the energy usage of 1000 people taking a flight to and from Europe.
Building power plants with renewables to lessen their impact on the grid and make sure they aren’t burning coal to run their GPUs should be encouraged.
On one hand, yes let’s get annoyed at companies for using alot of energy. On the other hand, we have known our energy needs will be exponential for decades yet we haven’t tackled the issue. We still burn fossil fuels, despite having the ability to not do that.
Being angry at companies for building a new technology yet not being angry at the government and NIMBY fuckwads is a little… Backwards imo.
It’s funny because both of you misunderstood my comment in order to reaffirm yourselfs. I don’t give a shit about trans people, they have as much right to exist as anyone else, I was talking about the right wings nonsense.
I can’t see the posts since they were removed, so this is amazing. I have no idea how he went from crypto-scented energy whataboutism to transphobia in three comments flat.
Also two bans in three comments is some quality speedrunning, awful-systems any%.
presenting a DM from someone who absolutely doesn’t have internalized transphobia, never heard of it:
So I’m gonna reach out and say that you hastily misunderstood “and that shit about trans people”. I’m talking about the hate speech from the right wing. Keep me banned though that community is full of people who really have a low level reading ability.
when a libertarian-presenting shithead with not particularly deep political takes posts “it’s a distraction just like the bullshit about trans people” with no other qualifiers, it’s absolutely understood as a dogwhistle for “people need to shut up about trans issues”
and if I’m wrong about that? using trans folks to make your bullshit points is still fucking transphobia. don’t do this shit. it’s fucking concerning you can’t understand that.
e: also, and this is important: the republicans are planning a fucking genocide of trans folks and you’re calling it a distraction. what the fuck is wrong with you.
I don’t think any of the reply guys I’m talking about work for the government, but I am pretty fucking angry that a lack of regulation and government oversight allows the companies I mentioned to flood the market with worthless, polluting grifttech they say needs dedicated power plants to scale to meet a fictional level of demand
it’d be nice if anyone was seriously considering regulation that’d stop these companies from doing stupid harmful shit. unfortunately they’re not (and the ability of the US government to effectively regulate any industry at all has just been effectively ended), so I don’t really have anything to write about in that area.
I mean there’s loads of industries that produce shit no one wants for needs. My confusion comes from why people are seething at LLMs. They are useful, they are getting more intelligent and can actually help people.
But there are entire businesses that exist to purely make shit on one side of the planet to ship to the other side of the planet. Billions of tons of plastic “bric a brac” get sold every year, none of it needs to exist but doesn’t get the same attention or hate. And that actively produces harmful pollution.
Thanks for proving me wrong, this actually helps my argument however that LLMs and crypto aren’t the boogeyman these people claim it to be, and that it’s just more likely a distracting talking point to stop people talking about issues that actually matter
They are a waste of energy. No one actually used cryptocurrency, so it’s not a large part of actual usage. It’s still wasteful.
LLMs are stupidly being trained on a lot of irrelevant data, which is causing electricity usage to increase when it should decrease. A simple Google search shouldn’t take that much energy.
there’s this type of reply guy on fedi lately who does the “well actually querying LLMs only happens in bursts and training is much more efficient than you’d think and nvidia says their gpus are energy-efficient” thing whenever the topic comes up
and meanwhile a bunch of major companies have violated their climate pledges and say it’s due to AI, they’re planning power plants specifically for data centers expanded for the push into AI, and large GPUs are notoriously the part of a computer that consumes the most power and emits a ton of heat (which notoriously has to be cooled in a way that wastes and pollutes a fuckton of clean water)
but the companies don’t publish smoking gun energy usage statistics on LLMs and generative AI specifically so who can say
I joined the Microsoft climate solutions team, I think doing so has crushed all my hopes. That team is doing small things like “let’s all go plastic free for July!” Top 20 company in the world and the best we can do is go plastic free for a month? Meanwhile MSFT is not on course to meet their own climate goal by 2030
we’re aiming to do 1% more recycling this year 💪💪💪
recycling plastic is not as shiny as advertised, just burn this shit for energy instead
I like it. Burn trash to power data centers running LLMs. Garage in, garbage out
it’s better used for municipal heating, you know, something actually useful
Instructions unclear, burned datacenter instead.
(To any 3 letter agencies reading this, I’m making a joke, I’m not pro burning down datacenters, that is Yuds thing).
Less recycling more reusing bottles for molotovs please
reduce, reuse, recycle, retaliate
I’m on a group text with your exec colleagues. Disheartening would be an understatement.
you’re our guy on the inside then? we can hit it from the outside and maybe we can accomplish together
“It only uses 5x as much energy as a regular search! Think of how much energy YOU’RE using with searches!” Okay, so you’re just using 5x as much energy for worse results? And also probably doing it more often than people who just use a normal search engine, because they don’t expect the search engine to talk to them. I’ve never understood how that was supposed to be an exoneration for it, even without taking into account that nobody ever seems to know whether or not that figure includes energy spent on training.
AI bros use literally the same whatabout excuses for their ghastly power consumption that I know from years of bitcoin bros doing the same
like, at least christmas lights bring joy
This kind of person (also happened a lot with cryptocurrencies) always goes ‘that isn’t how it works, this isn’t a problem’ then doesn’t explain what the mistake is you are supposed to have made, and then a few weeks/months/days/search later it is revealed that it was how it works and it is a huge problem. And it is so annoyingly common im very happy with the moderation here.
I just want to be able to legally punch people who think NFTs would bring down TicketMaster. It’s the peak of not understanding how things work and injecting a solution just because it’s high tech.
one that already exists - you can go to a show and your “ticket” is a hash you were sent in email and they cross it off at the door
it’s so common that I wish there was a specific name to put to that and every other type of reply guy that cryptocurrencies, chan culture, and meme stocks “gifted” us. it feels like the bullshit tactics cropped up faster than anyone really was able to catalog them, though a lot of them are really recognizable when you’ve seen them a few times.
I’m guessing that “obscurantist proponent” is not exactly an ideal option, sorta lacks that punch for precise poignant use in an enraged soliloquy
I’ll give it a ponder see if my brain delivers an option
weak attempt: replyribbon; linear, unsophisticated, prone to reuse without much change, and extremely easy to rip to shreds
jeez fuck this is just reality negationism at this point
you could snipe it down with canned response like r/buttcoin does (there are only so many types of these people), and it could count as a win because reply guy isn’t there to win debate, he’s there to spread his propaganda, but here, it’s too much effort for no gain because nobody will be swayed anyway
I live in Ireland and these companies keep trying to build data centres here even though they are using way too much of our energy as is :)) From an Irish environmental org:
ah yes, ireland, the land of just-close-enough to LIXP/TH(D|E)/etc but with different-enough property prices and power capabilities to make it very attractive to the discerning dc builder
(there’s also some of the tax regs shit but aiui that isn’t as gaping a hole as it used to be)
We’re actually having a housing crisis at the moment (like everywhere else) so I dunno about property prices…I think it’s the extremely receptive attitude of the Irish government.
do you have a housing crisis or do you have a landlord crisis (like how the US has 16 million vacant homes)
landlord crisis and a vulture fund crisis. don’t get me started because I’ll be frothing at the mouth in seconds
I thought the Irish were always pretty good at kicking out colonialist efforts. Maybe just try the old reliable approach.
Our entire economy since the 80s has been reliant on neo-colonial relationships with multinational companies unfortunately
that is unfortunate because Ireland was my backup plan for if the US falls (half of my grandparents were citizens)
Yeah imo Ireland has never had a left-wing government, we tend towards right-populist/right centrist/neoliberal. “Stable but shit” is how I described it to my brother just this hour gone while discussing politics. We’re currently seeing the beginnings of an organized racist right as well
I always thought data centers ran clean and dirty loops of cooling (as far as computers are concerned).
The clean loop has all the chemicals and whatnot to keep cooling blocks and tubing “safe”. The dirty side is just plain old water. And a big heat exchanger transfers the heat from the clean (hot) loop to the “dirty” (cold) side.
Is there really that much pollution in that? Can’t be worse than rain going through storm drains or whatever.
But AI does use a phenomenal amount of power.
And, IMO, it’s a problem compared to the lack of value people are getting from AI.
The new Blackwell B200 consumes 1.2kw of power, and will produce 1.2kw of heat.
A cooling system with a COP of 5 needs to consume 240w to dissipate this.
The backplane for the B200 holds 8 of these GPUs in a 10 RU space, and with overheads will peak 14.3kw (cooling would be 3kw consumption).
So, a 42u data center rack with 3 of these, supporting hardware and UPS efficiencies (80%) is going to be 52kw (+10kw cooling). 62kw total, which is like 4 homes drawing their full load all the time.
I hope they finally find an application for AI, instead of just constantly chasing the dragon with more training, more parameters, more performance etc.
The last part is absolutely false. The Nvidia H100 TDP is like 700W, though ostensibly configurable. The B200 is 1000W. The AMD MI300X is 750W.
They also skimp on RAM with many SKUs so you have to buy the higher clocked ones.
They run in insane power bands just to eek out a tiny bit more performance. If they ran at like a third of their power, I bet they would be at least twice as power efficient, and power use scales over nonlinearly with voltage/clock speed.
But no, just pedal to the metal. Run the silicon as hard as it can, and screw power consumption.
Other AI companies like Cerebras are much better, running at quite sane voltages. Ironically (or perhaps smartly), the Saudis invested in them.
it’s real bizarre you edited this in after getting upvoted by a few people
banned them for the subtle spam attempt
“it’s just lemmy, my reddit shit will work fine there” says meme stock marketer who’s never been subjected to any kind of scrutiny
I didn’t mean to advertise Cerebras, but its true, and it just popped into my head.
They run single silicon wafers at less than a volt.
I didn’t think it would be so controversial.
Nvidia hardware that everyone uses is massively efficient, and some other hardware runs in a much better power band.
You never post, second guess yourself, and research? Really easy to explain.
I usually append them at the end of the comment preceded by “Edit:” for transparency.
do the results of your personal research frequently look like marketing horseshit?
(notably posted at a 7min delta after the other comment with oh so specific details, and just entirely dismissing the man behind the curtain as to the plurality of compute involved)
wow, exemplary performance
There is currently a barrage of AI hate getting spewed out by most media (not manufactured, don’t worry, it’s all organic and you aren’t being manipulated) but this has to be the stupidest one. The grid should be able to take whatever energy we throw at it and shouldn’t be running this dirty in this day and age. Our problem is corrupt politicians and the oil and coal industry, this is nothing but a scape goat.
I guess that’s an easy way to ignore all dissenting opinion. I doubt you want to listen but here goes anyways:
It is more energy efficient to run it on big cards than have individuals use their own GPU (even though I personally like the open models running on my own computer). That’s what the reply guy was actually trying to tell you.
GPUs do consume a lot of power, they are also used in many things. Would you ever think for a second to post something similar about gaming or rendering? Of course not.
Cooling systems cycle the water, they are closed loop systems.
Meta posted all the energy ii took to train llama, it’s a lot but not that much when you actually look at the amount of people using it. A lot of industries do this, I suggest you look up the data on your favorite gaming companies so you can compare in case your opinion is overblown. I did some napkin math the other day and the energy usage to train llama (used by millions currently) was about the energy usage of 1000 people taking a flight to and from Europe.
Building power plants with renewables to lessen their impact on the grid and make sure they aren’t burning coal to run their GPUs should be encouraged.
On one hand, yes let’s get annoyed at companies for using alot of energy. On the other hand, we have known our energy needs will be exponential for decades yet we haven’t tackled the issue. We still burn fossil fuels, despite having the ability to not do that.
Being angry at companies for building a new technology yet not being angry at the government and NIMBY fuckwads is a little… Backwards imo.
this is literally the same whataboutery the crypto guys tried. go away.
you might be amazed to find out they do this cryptobro shit a lot
Removed by mod
we absolutely talk every day about how the governments are failing us go get your own solar panels and run your mlm bullshit there
holy shit we didn’t even have to dig to find out you’re garbage
thank you for making this the easiest ban ever
and to think I refrained from blocking on the first whatabout comment, a rookie error
It’s funny because both of you misunderstood my comment in order to reaffirm yourselfs. I don’t give a shit about trans people, they have as much right to exist as anyone else, I was talking about the right wings nonsense.
yeah don’t come back on an alt you fucking moron
that much is clear, you use trans folks like a fucking cudgel to make a shitty point. but I also don’t believe this:
given you seem to be a bitcoin right-libertarian at best. it’s time for you to fuck off, again
I can’t see the posts since they were removed, so this is amazing. I have no idea how he went from crypto-scented energy whataboutism to transphobia in three comments flat.
Also two bans in three comments is some quality speedrunning, awful-systems any%.
presenting a DM from someone who absolutely doesn’t have internalized transphobia, never heard of it:
when a libertarian-presenting shithead with not particularly deep political takes posts “it’s a distraction just like the bullshit about trans people” with no other qualifiers, it’s absolutely understood as a dogwhistle for “people need to shut up about trans issues”
and if I’m wrong about that? using trans folks to make your bullshit points is still fucking transphobia. don’t do this shit. it’s fucking concerning you can’t understand that.
e: also, and this is important: the republicans are planning a fucking genocide of trans folks and you’re calling it a distraction. what the fuck is wrong with you.
Just to clarify, I meant when the right wing spout shit about trans people
I don’t think any of the reply guys I’m talking about work for the government, but I am pretty fucking angry that a lack of regulation and government oversight allows the companies I mentioned to flood the market with worthless, polluting grifttech they say needs dedicated power plants to scale to meet a fictional level of demand
it’d be nice if anyone was seriously considering regulation that’d stop these companies from doing stupid harmful shit. unfortunately they’re not (and the ability of the US government to effectively regulate any industry at all has just been effectively ended), so I don’t really have anything to write about in that area.
I mean there’s loads of industries that produce shit no one wants for needs. My confusion comes from why people are seething at LLMs. They are useful, they are getting more intelligent and can actually help people.
But there are entire businesses that exist to purely make shit on one side of the planet to ship to the other side of the planet. Billions of tons of plastic “bric a brac” get sold every year, none of it needs to exist but doesn’t get the same attention or hate. And that actively produces harmful pollution.
Electric energy needs are not “exponential”. They’ve actually been flat in the US. Other developed countries are similar:
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/use-of-electricity.php
Thanks for proving me wrong, this actually helps my argument however that LLMs and crypto aren’t the boogeyman these people claim it to be, and that it’s just more likely a distracting talking point to stop people talking about issues that actually matter
They are a waste of energy. No one actually used cryptocurrency, so it’s not a large part of actual usage. It’s still wasteful.
LLMs are stupidly being trained on a lot of irrelevant data, which is causing electricity usage to increase when it should decrease. A simple Google search shouldn’t take that much energy.