To win back support, the Democratic candidate must offer a positive and coherent vision centered on care and progressive policies, rather than relying solely on anti-Trump rhetoric.
To win back support, the Democratic candidate must offer a positive and coherent vision centered on care and progressive policies, rather than relying solely on anti-Trump rhetoric.
They go for who turns out to vote. Which is, drumroll please, the center voter.
If you want them to go left, then vote for them. Show up. No one is going to court voters that never show up.
Embracing the right hasn’t netted them anything and they keep doing it.
I vote every time. Don’t lecture me for being unhappy just because you’ve got the genocide and border policy you want. Centrists blame the left they deliberately alienate for any losses, while courting Republicans who will never vote for them. They interpret any win as a mandate to move to the right.
Left leaning here, dunno about you, but run channels with other left leaning progressives. I’m on a border between two states, I make it a point that my state when state/local stuff comes up, I get the news out, I get the word out, I try to drum up voting. Anyone in the other state, a massive collective ‘meh’. Same comes with the local votes.
“But Bernie” is the cry.
Voting isn’t just about the damn presidency. It’s a shit slog from the lowest levels all the way up and all the crowd I know in the left leaning can’t be faffed to show up for anything local so of course it’s going to be centrist on the top. The reason the right wing has so much power is they’ve made it a point since the Reagan era that anyone without an ® after their name WILL NOT run uncontested even it if it’s a superintendent to a school.
Yes, the Democrats are run by centrists because that’s who shows up to all the elections no matter how small or petty, but the lefts show up at Presidential elections and whinge about how nothing changes.
I hope I’m preaching to the choir when it comes to voting on the small elections, but unless you’re in a very different place than I am, if you did you’d pretty quickly notice you’re the rare leftist there.
It’s the center. And they do win elections when they go to the center. That’s Bill Clinton won, even Obama had to run on vague “hope”, and that’s how Biden won. Because the left never shows up to vote
Who said I’m centrist? I’m just saying that’s where they find voters and that’s where they win.
May I remind you that Dems have had all 3 of house of representatives, Senate, and presidency for only 4 of the last 24 years? They basically never win.
They win by moving to the center and basically never win. Got it.
You can look at this way: When they go left, they lose. Because the left doesn’t show up. So they go center and win occasionally. As in, they win more often when they go center. So the math is clear, go center. You know this, but you want to obfuscate.
They don’t go left at all. You just blame the left when they go to the right like you want and it fails.
Let’s pull up the history, I have this saved because I have to go over it with people:
Let’s run through the recent story.
Bill Clinton: After successive losses Bill figured out “it’s the economy stupid”. And when you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you run from the center. So that’s what he did. And he won.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!
Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don’t stick your head out. He ran on vague “hope”, hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush’s disastrous wars. And he won.
Hillary Clinton: After the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, she stuck her head out just a tiny itty little bit left on climate change (that thing all the leftists care about right?) with the Map Room. And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters!
On to Biden. Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don’t stick your head out left. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. He’s actually been governing more from the left, but he ran center.
And people are amazed that they don’t run an big left platform? Every time they stick their head out a little itsy bitsy tiny bit left they lose. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win.
Like I said.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, like they’ve lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the center to find votes.
Blaming Hillary’s loss on one progressive idea instead of the millions of other reasons people had to not vote for her is just straight up head-in-the-sand insane.
Al Gore got straight up robbed by the SC, but even ignoring that let’s not forget that was 24 years ago and climate action was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy less popular than it is now. Let’s also not forget he won the popular vote.
Trump must have lost in 2020 because he was too far to the left.
You’re gonna blame the left because the Supreme Court robbed us all. Of course, you’re gonna blame the left for any losses, no matter how much you have to lie about history to do so.
Obama ran to Clinton’s left. He had specific policies regarding healthcare, Gitmo, the environment, Roe v Wade. Americans told Clinton to take a fucking hike and went with the guy to her left. Obama won despite the efforts of Centrists. Centrists were so upset that the party nominated someone to their left that they formed a PAC to elect McCain. They failed.
Clinton did everything in her power to alienate the left. Holy shit, you’re saying Clinton lost because she wasn’t far enough to the right. She might not be far enough to the right for you, but I doubt anyone will ever be.
Gore: If the election wasn’t so close, then we wouldn’t have needed recounts huh? Thanks 3rd party voters!
Obama: So you’re talking the primary? I’m talking the general. The message to the voters was very vague “hope” and relying on energy. And after Bush’s disastrous wars it didn’t take much to win against the GOP, people were sick of the lies.
AND how long did Obama win? He won for years 1 and 2. Then for years 3 and 4 he lost the house of reps. Again for years 5 and 6 he lost the house of reps. And for years 7 and 8, he lost BOTH the house of reps and senate. That was his thanks for the ACA huh. Thanks voters that can’t be assed to show up for elections!
Hilary: I’m saying she lost because the left didn’t show up to vote. Thanks no vote protesters! They thought it would move things left by not voting, but in reality the overton window went off the cliff to the right by letting Trump win. How’d that work out?
So that’s why Biden ran on center. He learned from Hillary. And when running against an incumbent you run center.
So back to my message. How do you get things to move left? You do that by giving Dems consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, they go to the center to find voters.
The left “doesn’t show up” when Dems go right BECAUSE THERE’S NO ONE TO VOTE FOR ON THE LEFT. If the Dems would go left, and not ‘tiny little peak out from behind big oil money’ left, but full blown ‘here’s the progressive version of project 2025 and we’re going to FIGHT hard for it, even if it means ditching some of our conservative members’ left, then millennials and zoomers would show up. Millennials and zoomers are overwhelmingly progressive and they show up in greater numbers than any generation before them at their age… and that’s WITHOUT ever having had someone on the left to actually vote for.
Sigh. That’s what I’m saying. If you want a big left platform, then you have to vote for the small left platform first. No one is going to run a big left platform when the small left platform loses time and time again. Not going to happen. When the small left platform loses, they will go to the center to find voters.
And if you think you can play Mexican standoff and wait for the big left platform, I have news for you. You won’t win. They will write you off as a voter and court the voters that actually show up, which is the center voter.
Nah… Soon someone will come forward with a big left platform, and this time Clinton and her minions won’t be there to rig the primary. The DNC will have more and more young people and when the time comes they will shift the whole party dramatically to the left. The boomers will finally be the minority and we’ll get an actual left party.
You’re talking the primary and I’m talking the general. And every time they stick their head left (in the general) they lose.
I already gave you the history in a different chain, you can’t plead ignorance on this. You want them to shift left? They have to win first.
Young, old, doesn’t really matter. They will run what they think will win the general. Young does not mean they will run a left platform just because young. Old does not mean they will run center just because old. They will run what will win the general. And history shows the left never shows up to vote. It’s the definition of insanity all over again.
Right… They basically never win… So maybe they should try a different strategy because going for the right isn’t working… Clearly they aren’t finding the votes there. Clinton was a different time before millennials and zoomers could vote. Obama got 10 million “extra” people to actually show up and vote… And you know what? They didn’t come from the center.
Except going to the center does win. it’s basically the only wins they get.
Ok history lesson. Let’s just do the whole thing.
After successive loses, Bill Clinton figured out “it’s the economy stupid”. Pretty centrist platform, and he won.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, Gore stuck his head left. And bam, he lost the election. Yup, that’s what happened.
So Obama learned from Gore to not stick your head out. He ran on vague “hope” and unity, thinking that after Bush’s disastrous wars that would be enough. Personally I think practically anyone could have won against the GOP after those wars. People really wanted to move on after that.
Might as well round it out. So after the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, Hillary stuck her head a tiny bit left with the Map Room to fight climate change (the supposed big important issue for the left, right?). And bam. she lost the election.
So what did Biden learn from Hilary? Don’t stick your head left. And when running against an incumbent you run from the center. So that’s what he did, and that’s how he won. He’s governing more from the left, but he ran center.
What’s that definition of insanity, doing the same thing twice and expecting different results. That’s basically what you think they’re going to do. Every time they go a bit left they lose, it’d be an act of insanity to go left and expect to win. Different strategy is correct, and that different strategy is to go to the center, which is where they finally win.
Let me try to explain an alternative view of the history you present: Clinton and Gore were before millennials could vote, let alone zoomers… So yes, maybe back then going center was the correct move. However, both of these generations are overwhelmingly progressive (particularly economically, ie tax the rich out of existence) The first chance millennials really got to vote they showed up for Obama. 10 million “extra” voters that year… They didn’t come from the center full of people who always vote, they came from the young left full of people who had never voted but were excited by Obama’s progressive message… Sadly he was a full of shit shill working for the oligarchy just like the rest of them, but millennials were new and didn’t realize that.
Next, the new generations went all in for Bernie, also far more progressive than most of the DNC, but Clinton2 had rigged the primary. So instead of allowing for someone people were actually excited about, she decided it was her turn and in her hubris and arrogance cost us all 4 years of Trump. Even if she did stick her pinky toe out a little left, she was competing (in the minds of the young progressive generations) with someone who was truly left and was willing to fight the oligarchy. Clinton refused to even acknowledge the distorting role money plays in politics. She and her minions spat in young progressive’s faces in order to chase the right and then were somehow surprised they didn’t show up to vote for her. Then, Trump was so horrible, that enough people held their noses and voted for Biden. Maybe, some of those people were Republicans who preferred him to Trump, but I’d bet he can thank young people for his win more than Republicans crossing over. And for both Clinton2 and Biden we were told “just vote now and fix the system when we’re safe” and both times it was bullshit. They never intended to fix the system, because the oligarchy likes it the way it is, and they work for the oligarchy. Now, millennials are all grown up, and zoomers are mostly voting age. They are overwhelmingly progressive and want a candidate who will truly fight the oligarchy, not take bribes from it. And this election they will equal or outnumber the boomers and older generations, but still, the DNC chooses to run to the right… To ignore half the population because they are young, or because most of the DNC is so old they don’t even realize they are outnumbered. A strong anti oligarchy Bernie type candidate would see such overwhelming turnout from the young progressive generations that I honestly believe it could be the end of the 2 oligarchy parties forever. Which is why they’ll push to the right until the very last Boomer dies, and the next generations can replace them with a better system.
Funny thing about generations, they tend to change as they age. Will millenials be any different? Time will tell.
They showed up the first time, so year 1 and 2. Then for Obama year 3 and 4 he lost the house of reps. Then again for years 5 and 6 he lost the house of reps. Then he lost both the house of reps and the senate for years 7 and 8. Thanks voters that can’t be assed to show up! So what happened? Left voters never (or rarely if you reallllly need it) show up.
And this was with even more millenials getting the vote throughout Obama’s term. And. They. Didn’t. Show. Up.
So what happens when you don’t have all 3 houses? Congress is what has control, not the president. So Dems have to reach across the aisle. And that’s what they had to do for 6 out of 8 years. Because, wait for it, the left didn’t show up. And you’re amazed that they had to reach across the aisle and nothing much came out of 6 years?
And to further the point, they even shut down the government under obama. Congress has control.
So what did Hillary learn from Obama? She learned that the thanks for the ACA was losing control. Thanks left voters that don’t show up! You think she’s going to run a big left platform after they just lost 6 out of 8 years? The answer is no. She needs all 3 and she knows that. The GOP has now become obstructionist and she needs all 3 to pass anything. So on many items she runs center, but with a itsy bitsy left to the supposed big important issue to the left. Can’t make too much of a stink about it or the right will go full blast on it, but the message to the left was clear. This is the big issue for the left, right? And for the young people, right? And for the future, right? This was the big impact, move the needle issue that intelligent people should have been all for, right? And bam she lost the election. Thanks no vote protesters! (And can’t forget the voters in years 3-8 of Obama that taught her left doesn’t win.)
Two ways you can look at this. 1) He appealed to center voters, and that’s what he got, and that’s why he won. That’s what I think happened. But if you want to run on 2) the left showed up, then hey look what’s possible when the left shows up! But the lesson they learned was they win when they go center.
Now imagine what would happen if that happened every single election, every single midterm. Yeah the whole Dem party could and would move left. That’s what I’m saying.
The only issue is that they have to win first, and then they can go left. They won’t go left just because, out of the blue, for no reason. Because history, as I’ve run through a second time, show the left never shows up.
Fix the system? We all know we can’t fix the electoral college or the senate. Maybe the House of reps, but that’s only 1 of 3 that Dems need.
Great. Vote first, give the Dems consistent and overwhelming victories in presidential and midterms, and then the party will cater to you. Because the history, as gone over twice, shows the left doesn’t show up.
We’ll see if anything changes now that Biden drops out, but when he ran in he was running against the incumbent and when you do that you run center. And then you (usually) have that candidate for 8 years.
As for now, I doubt anyone will take the chance on letting Trump win and democracy ending, so I expect the new nominee will run center. And then maybe Trump will run again in 2028, so guess what you get another center. And then maybe Trump impersonee 2032, so again maybe no chances and center. Etc, etc. These things don’t change nearly as quickly as you want them to. All because, wait for it, left voters never showed up in 2016 (and 2014, and 2012, and 2010). Plenty of millenials and even Gen Z in 2016, and they didn’t show up. That was the trajectory that was decided in 2016, and momentum’s a bitch.
You know what the core of this is? You are relying on, essentially, polling data on what left young people want. And I am relying on who turns out to vote. You can say “we want this” until the cows come home, it does not matter when. voters. don’t. show. up. And you’re not going to win a mexican standoff waiting for a big left platform. They will simply go to the center voter.
Progressives aren’t Democrats. Do people get mad at conservatives for not voting for Democrats? Why would anyone show up to vote when there’s no candidate representing them? They didn’t show up for Obama midterms because Obama turned out to be the same old same and they figured it out quickly. Let alone all the shills that would have been running. Give them someone to vote for and they’ll show up. Continue to go after an ever shrinking center and continue to lose until all the boomers are dead and then it won’t matter anyway.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I think we’re just going to end up having to agree to disagree… It would be nice if the boomers came left to start setting up the next generations for success, but whether they do or don’t, they are on their way out, and progressives will inherit the party sooner or later.
If progressives want the government/society/the overton window to progress, then they have to vote for Dems and give them consistent and overwhelming victories. That’s about it.
They didn’t show up for Obama after he passed the most progressive healthcare bill in his first 2 years. Yeah that’s not a thing to be proud of. What did that get them? Drumroll please, it got them 6 years of Obama not being able to do anything else. Way to take anything else progressive Obama may have done and flush it down the toilet! And what else did it get them? Drumroll please, a mostly center Hilary who knew they didn’t show up. And what else did it get them? Trump. Yeah. And what else did it get them? A center Biden. Way to own yourself progressives. Like that the biggest self own in history. And you wonder why the Dems go the center to find votes? lol. This is why I said: If progressives want the government/society/the overton window to progress, then they have to vote for Dems and give them consistent and overwhelming victories.
Agree to disagree? I’m going to take that mean you now understand the history that I laid out and why they keep going to the center to find votes. Because left voters never show up.
You can’t play mexican standoff and expect to win. Dems will just go after voters that actually show up.
Democrats abandoned the centrist voter decades ago, they dont need to solicit their votes because they will get them regardless what they do. They appeal to right of center, then after they get that they will abandon right of center. So they go further right to solicit those votes. Rince and repeat year after year. This is how the party went from people like Carter to people to the right of Reagan and Thatcher
I would have just put the math in my original comment. Here’s my saved math’
Ok I’ve had this conversation and realized that people can’t do the math. So lets do it:
Let’s evaluate the last say 24 years and when the Dems had all 3 of the House of Representatives, Senate, and Presidency. Note they need all 3 to pass pretty much anything.
Obama had it for 2 out of 8 years. Biden had it for 2 out of 4 years. Let’s add it: That means Dems had control for 4 out of 24 years. Read that again, they had control for only 4 the last 24 years.
And that can still be filibustered. So if you want the filibuster proof majority, then Obama had it for 4 months. Not years, MONTHS. Biden never had it. Add it up: Dems had filibuster proof control for 4 months of the last 24 years.
Look at those stats again: Dems had control for 4 years of the last 24 years. For filibuster proof control, Dems had control for 4 MONTHS of the last 24 years.
This is why Dems keep going to the center to find votes, because they basically never have control. To get literally anything done they need to go to the center. Take your pick, either 4 years of the last 24 fucking years, or the 4 months or the last 24 years. And you wonder why they go to the center?
If you want progress you have to give Dems overwhelming and consistent victories.
You are focused on a filibuster proof majority. It only takes 51 votes to eliminate the filibuster. Democrats never go to the center to find votes, they abandoned the center years ago knowing they dont need to court their vote. They keep courting further and further to the right, and get no where doing it. Not to long ago they were courting the Nicki Haley voters.
I’m not focused on filibuster proof, I gave both. If anything I focused on simple majority.
4 years of the last 24 years (simple majority, not filibuster) and you want to suggest they never have to go to the center to find voters? How does that math work out? They basically lost 20 of the last 24 years. That’s exactly why they have to go to the center to find voters. And why they have to compromise during those 20 years.
Right, center, for this discussion whatever you want to call it, that’s the general direction they have to go. Because they lose all the fucking time. They lose consistently. Because the left never shows up to vote.
Because the DNC does not represent their values. The left begins at anticapitalism, and thats not the DNC.
I’m saying if you want anything on the left, you need to give Dems consistent and overwhelming victories.
Oh should we discuss capitalism?
Whether you like it or not it’s capitalism. You have a choice between 1) capitalism that’s free for all, fuck the workers, fuck the consumers, fuck the Earth, disband the EPA, OSHA, FTC, etc. or 2) capitalism that’s regulated, with environmental protection, worker protections, minimum wages, workplace standards, product regulations, etc. You can say those regulations aren’t strong enough, but how do we get stronger regulations? The choice should be obvious.
That would still be a resounding no. We’ve tried it your way for decades and you people decided that an old senile POS with a racist past was the best option. There is no longer any credibility on good decisions remaining in liberals.
Then your vote is a resounding no to regulation. Make no excuses about it, that’s what you’re voting for.
*Oh and btw for decades. Have you? Dems have had control of all 3 (house of reps, senate, and presidency) for 6 years of the last 44 years. That’s right, 6 pathetic years out of 44 fucking years. So no, you haven’t tried for decades. You’ve tried nothing and are all out of ideas.
**And I really should cover what he’s done since you’re intent on attacking: Green energy, EV investment, union empowerment, student debt forgiveness, marijuana rescheduling and pardons, infrastructure, drug price controls, Chips act, PACT act, etc etc etc. Non-competes banned (by FTC along ‘party lines’). Pardoning people kicked out for being gay. Supporting Ukraine. Fucking great President.
They don’t go to the center to find votes, they go to the center to find corporate donors. There’s a difference.
At the end of the election, they count votes, not donations. They need voters and that’s where they go.
If the left leaning voters choices are the centrist Democrats or the rightest republicans it’s not too strange for them to not vote when no one really seems to represent their values. Although I think they definitely should cause the scales are tipping in the wrong direction, but it isn’t their fault it’s the Democrats who prefer a shaky status quo to actual leftist policy. If either party wants to drum up votes and actually pretend to be democratic they should put proportional representation as a goal for their next term. That way at least the oligarchachal tyranny of the minority could be repressed. Of course neither does cause republicans will lose and Democrats don’t want to risk and actual leftist party overtaking them when Americans aren’t forced into the 2 party system.
It’s better to vote for a 3rd party or spoil your ballot rather than not voting at all. If you show that you will take the time to go to the polls, but will not vote for them, it sends a message. Not voting also sends a message but that message is that they shouldn’t care what you think because you won’t influence the election in any way.
If you want the Dems to move left, then they need to win. Because everytime they lose they go to the center to find votes. And that’s where they find them.
Dems have had all 3 of house of reps, Senate, and presidency for only 4 of the last 24 years. Or 6 years of the last 32 years. Or 6 years of the last 44 years. And you’re amazed that they go to the center to find voters? They need to. Because the left never shows up to vote as evidenced by your comment. And everytime they lose, like they’ve lost for 20 of the last 24 years, they go to the center to find votes.
You want to move the Overton window? You want things to move left? You do that by giving Dems consistent and overwhelming victories. Not a measly 4 years every 24 years.
This is pretty simple actually, what part is complicated to you?
The part where millions of people are supposed to vote for policy they don’t want.
If you want far left policy then you have to vote for a little bit left first. (I’ll use those terms to get the point across.)
AKA: You have to walk before you run.
This is exactly what the GOP did, they had to vote for decades before getting what they wanted: Overturning Roe.
If you want, say, far left voters to vote, you have to do far left policy say, a little bit left first. It’s simple dialectics.
People didn’t vote for Bernie Sanders because they wanted center-right policies. They voted for far-left policies.
That’s what I’m getting at. You aren’t going to get far left policy just out of the blue. Not going to happen. It simply won’t.
If you want far left policy, then you have to vote for a little (to the power of 3) left first. When that wins, then you can vote for a little (to the power of 2) left. When that wins, then you get to vote for a little (to the power of 1) left.
See how this goes?
This is why there’s so many saying like this: Walk before you run. Tip your toes in before you take the plunge. Baby steps. Etc, etc, etc.
The best evidence is Bernie in 2020. Open field. Progressives didn’t show up in enough numbers.
If Bernie wasn’t left enough then what would be?
I’m talking elections not primaries, but sure.