Shit I was homeschooled and I tend to keep that on the DL just due to the stigma lol. Really sucks that fundies like this ruin something that can really be beneficial for some kids. I’d stress the worst offenders of homeschooling stem from religious fundamentalism and it can be done very successfully in a secular household.
We homeschooled our kids while we lived in Utah simply to avoid the religious fundamentalism. But we definitely also knew religious people who “homeschooled” their children, who ended up completely unable to read at age 10. Turns out spending time with the pigs doesn’t constitute a well-balanced education.
As someone who wasn’t home schooled, can you explain what the benefit is when the goal isn’t to indoctrinate your kids into believing exactly what you want them to believe, especially when those beliefs go against societal norms?
Because that seems to be the only purpose from those I’ve seen even entertaining the idea of homeschooling, though luckily those acquaintances require dual incomes and didn’t have the time.
I ask this sincerely. Because it seems like if you want a better education than public school offers, supplementing their normal school with additional home lessons seems better for their socialization, and gives the best of both worlds.
I can see an argument if the kids have special needs that aren’t being met at school, or insulation from extreme bullying. But both of those seem to lead to a rude awakening when they’re eventually forced into the real world.
Well for background my wife was public schooled and did pretty well. Honors, AP classes, extracurriculars, good grades,etc. Ultimately she still felt held back while also having similar concerns to me with how public school can shape a child, and we ultimately discussed this over the years candidly before having kids and came to the conclusion that we would try homeschooling. Our state partially contributed to that decision, similar to the other user’s reply mentioning being in Utah.
I don’t want to put down teachers or public schools because I do believe they have a positive benefit of lifting these boats but let’s also be clear: they’re very much a cookie-cutter one-size-fits-all institution. They don’t do well with outliers. The very notion of these institutions seemed born more out of the fact that our system needed child daycare to maintain an adult workforce undistracted from raising kids. I’ll rapid-fire some of our bigger reasons for choosing to homeschool our kids:
Public School tends to be where creativity and passion go to the die. My wife (the smarter better half) talked about this. She suffered serious burnout and as a result by the time college came around lost a lot of interest despite her being very book-smart and having photographic memory. She always admired my own passion and curiosity for knowledge by contrast.
Peer-pressure, band-wagoning fallacies are potent. In public school there very much exists this Blind-Leading-the-Blind mentality that shapes right from wrong — popular from unpopular. That can be extremely detrimental and crippling especially to those who tend to be outsiders by default. When you have fellow children dictating norms more so than adults, that can set up an extremely toxic environment.
And that’s reflected in rising adolescent suicidal/homicidal rates. And while I’m here and despite the statistical improbability I’d be remiss if I didn’t say we had concern for school shootings just the same. It should be noted that my own mom pulled my older sister from school because of bullying and sexual harassment and that’s where it all began for the rest of us. (I should point out that at the time my household was religious, though I wouldn’t go so far as to say fundamentalist. We’ve all since changed from conservative religious Republicans to progressive leftist non-religious Democrats… Well except one of my siblings).
Related to the former, there tends to be less adult oversight and less dedicated attention. In Public schools you get 1:15 or 1:30 teacher-student ratios; with homeschooling you have a PARENT who cares more about your future than any teacher would in a 1:1-4 ratio, generally. And again not to downplay what teachers do, but the vast majority of grade-school work isn’t post-graduate by definition… There are well-established curricula and teaching methods that can be used as templates. And in this day, it’s easier than ever with massive resources that weren’t even fully available to my generation: state resources, supplementary cyber-school programs, robust libraries, etc.
While there isn’t a ton of data out there, what does exist seems to show that homeschooled kids do tend to perform above-average both academically in life satisfaction. I’ll dig up my sources of these for those further interested. There is a lot of concern about socialization, which you can still get by becoming involved in local communities, get into team sports, martial arts, improv/theater, volunteer work, etc. Ultimately I think there is just as much risk to public school teaching the wrong kind of social skills as opposed to learning the good kind.
Do I think homeschooling is for everyone? No. And that applies not just to the uniqueness of the child but also the circumstances and willingness of the parents. On the flip-side, I don’t believe public schooling is for everyone either. I don’t think I would’ve done well, but I do think someone like my sister would have. There are particular advantages in precision-targeting education to interests and personality. Catering to adhd, autism, social sensitivities, etc.
We want our kid to be surrounded by adults who love them; to be role-models rather than the loudest biggest kid in their classroom. We want our kids to maintain their passion for curiosity and learning and to grow in their own unique way without being forced into a one-size-fits-all cookie-cutter box often found in public schools.
To your final point that often gets raised about, “preparing for the real world,” the “real world” is QUITE different from public school, which can feel like an inescapable prison for many kids. Why? Because they have no agency as an adolescent. They are forced to go back to their hell-hole every day and not even have a modicum of protection from the school who tends to look the other way. Meanwhile your own parents have very limited capacity to help you… But when you’re an adult… At least there’s a level of decorum even for those bullies who grow up… And at least you have the capacity to say fuck-you in most cases and ghost someone, leave your job, and so forth. A child doesn’t have nearly the same agency, which is what makes school so difficult for many. And sure, some come through the other side despite severe bullying successfully, but I’d caution against making a survivor-bias fallacy.
Hopefully this gives a little insight into our perspective even if you may not necessarily agree personally.
I think I understand where you’re coming from, and it seems to me that being an active parent gives a lot of those same benefits. And learning how to redirect and navigate difficult and/or adverse social situations is certainly a skill that’s used daily in the real world.
But I do see your point that isolated, controlled nurturing is almost definitely better than the worst case scenario of extreme bullying, particularly if the child isn’t able to cope to come out the other side.
I’d also argue that philosophy could also subconsciously teach your kid to run from adversity, even imagined adversity that hasn’t materialized.
But in the end, it’s your choice as a parent. Your reasons are respectable, and I hope your kids turn out better for it!
No problem, thanks. Yeah we’ll see. Both our kids are still pretty young so we’re only on the cusp of diving fully into it, but I think I’ve learned a lot from my own experience on where to improve in this 2nd generation. Either way, we’re not opposed to trying something different if it doesn’t seem to be working out, be it private or public school. We’re also very lucky that our circumstances give us the capacity to do this when I know many parents are just trying to make ends meet on dual incomes unfortunately.
Isn’t the idea that your kid is special and unique blinding yourself in front of your public school?
I don’t know what public schools are in the US. I know in France that diversity means a lot to how successful it is for everyone. That you need both silver spoon fed kids and poor kids in a classroom for the whole society to get greater out of everyone’s ability. Fail to do this and you’ll only feed segregation. France is now quite high in reproducing inequalities because of how it decreased diversity in school.
So I don’t know about US public schools, and I expect them to be quite bad. But I know for a fact that if you arz good parents you can have your kid in public school, and both your kid and school, and thus society as a whole, benefit from it.
Ultimately what you’re describing is that you like individualism and you like how to can both profit from and participate to it. It is a cultural problem in your country imo. And it is contaminating mine. Which makes me sad eventhough I have no kids.
In my view I don’t think teaching individualism is mutually-exclusive from teaching tolerance and acceptance of diversity. Sure I think conservatives have led the misconception that these are, but that’s not my view. To the contrary my family turned toward diversity despite my own parents being pretty low-educated, rural, religious blue-collar Republicans. Empathy was highly emphasized in my household mostly thanks to my mother and as a result I’m ardent progressive-leftist fighting for everyone’s rights. I do agree that at a societal level that we of course benefit from diversity; the “Melting Pot of America” — the huddled masses yearning to breathe free scribed below France’s gift, Lady Liberty, is after all a part of our identity.
For my kids I’ll get them involved in all sorts of extracurricular activities that will allow them to interact with all backgrounds; but I won’t put them in a situation where they feel trapped in an inescapable hell, for some of our schools can be pretty brutal. We plan to get them enrolled into community college a bit earlier, too, allowing them to earn college credits and get used to a classroom environment ahead of university.
I don’t think you get my point. Sure, you did educate your children the best you could, and for the best goal of humanism. But you did so beside your society. That means that, at your core, you believe you are better than your society, AND you think your children are better learned OUT of it.
This is individualism at its core. You go the lone wolf path if it means it can ensure the better for your own tribe. At the expense of the society as a whole.
This is a self feeding cycle. Society will get worse and worse while some lineages of individuals will get better. That’s how the liberal neo-feudalism is born.
I’m not blaming you. You do what you think is the best for your children in a society that pushes for this choice with all its strength. I’m merely trying to explain where it leads.
Individualism and Collectivism can coexist in my view. Again, I simply do not buy the premise that this is an either-or situation whereby I consider myself above society in all things; simply that in this narrow domain, I do believe I can do better with my child. Is that always the case? Of course not.
Naturally both pure individualism and pure collectivism carry their own risks and it’s an endless pursuit of perfection for a society to find the right balance between the two.
The short answer is the ability to tailor the entire learning experience to one child’s specific needs and interests. For example: My sister loves cooking so for history and chemistry she got to do it from a culinary perspective.
Extra curricular activities can help supplement public education but kids still need unstructured play time, so there is a limit to how much can be added.
I know two people who thrived in a homeschooling environment, for them it was 100% the right choice. 99% of the time it is the wrong choice.
Side note: Virtual learning has created a weird third option that isn’t quite public school but also isn’t homeschooling. This gets mixed in with homeschooling conversations but I think it confuses things and belongs in a separate category.
Same. I tend not to mention it, especially IRL. I fucking loved it, and feel like I got a much better education than most public schools offer. But fucking fundamentalists make me feel like if someone finds out then they’re going to assume I’m a cousin fucker who thinks the planet is 300 years old and that Jesus rode a dinosaur to rescue America from the communists.
I was raised young earth evangelical and home schooled K-12.
That is not a flex, I have just summarized the trauma that is defining my middle years of life as I deconstruct and unpack it - now that I recognize it as the trauma that it is.
I was sort of homeschooled. I kept getting kicked out of school for… basically civil disobedience, and dad just had enough and decided to homeschool me.
he had a masters in education, and I got all my lessons from university professors for a few years. people still think I have a LOT more formal education than I do. there were some really incredible school trips, some of which I can’t even talk about without doxxing myself. I got three aquariums, and most of the backyard, and if I did anything other than routine maintenance, I had to justify what I was doing and why. if anything died that wasn’t supposed to, I had to cut it open. which is great, because I was a few years behind and really needed the motivation to catch up. there was a textbook, and I paid a LOT more attention to it than I did in any class. I called my teachers for help. I was far enough ahead on humanities and tech shit, dad really just had to occasionally remind me to do critical thinking about whatever I was reading, and throw books in my general direction. he made me write a few essays, which I resented at the time. I remember the sparse geology classes (really just a couple field trips-it wasn’t my whole education, and the previous year science class was geology, so there probably would have been more) I got involved a lot of rope.
I feel like I mostly wasted the opportunity, but I’m more well read than probably 95+% of the country, and was before I hit high school, where I promptly squandered my entire advantage with a year or two before dropping out, but I can still pass as having a degree in a small handful of subjects.
I agree that most parents should not be fucking home schooling their kids, but in my case, its probably the only way I got any education at all. I think every kid should get opportunities like I did, but can’t really think of a way to scale it up without just generally making the world better in every way. why are we not doing that, again?
You really need to have been home schooled to think that mentioning it is a flex.
Shit I was homeschooled and I tend to keep that on the DL just due to the stigma lol. Really sucks that fundies like this ruin something that can really be beneficial for some kids. I’d stress the worst offenders of homeschooling stem from religious fundamentalism and it can be done very successfully in a secular household.
We homeschooled our kids while we lived in Utah simply to avoid the religious fundamentalism. But we definitely also knew religious people who “homeschooled” their children, who ended up completely unable to read at age 10. Turns out spending time with the pigs doesn’t constitute a well-balanced education.
it genuinely can, but you might need to take notes when its time to butcher one.
As someone who wasn’t home schooled, can you explain what the benefit is when the goal isn’t to indoctrinate your kids into believing exactly what you want them to believe, especially when those beliefs go against societal norms?
Because that seems to be the only purpose from those I’ve seen even entertaining the idea of homeschooling, though luckily those acquaintances require dual incomes and didn’t have the time.
I ask this sincerely. Because it seems like if you want a better education than public school offers, supplementing their normal school with additional home lessons seems better for their socialization, and gives the best of both worlds.
I can see an argument if the kids have special needs that aren’t being met at school, or insulation from extreme bullying. But both of those seem to lead to a rude awakening when they’re eventually forced into the real world.
Well for background my wife was public schooled and did pretty well. Honors, AP classes, extracurriculars, good grades,etc. Ultimately she still felt held back while also having similar concerns to me with how public school can shape a child, and we ultimately discussed this over the years candidly before having kids and came to the conclusion that we would try homeschooling. Our state partially contributed to that decision, similar to the other user’s reply mentioning being in Utah.
I don’t want to put down teachers or public schools because I do believe they have a positive benefit of lifting these boats but let’s also be clear: they’re very much a cookie-cutter one-size-fits-all institution. They don’t do well with outliers. The very notion of these institutions seemed born more out of the fact that our system needed child daycare to maintain an adult workforce undistracted from raising kids. I’ll rapid-fire some of our bigger reasons for choosing to homeschool our kids:
Public School tends to be where creativity and passion go to the die. My wife (the smarter better half) talked about this. She suffered serious burnout and as a result by the time college came around lost a lot of interest despite her being very book-smart and having photographic memory. She always admired my own passion and curiosity for knowledge by contrast.
Peer-pressure, band-wagoning fallacies are potent. In public school there very much exists this Blind-Leading-the-Blind mentality that shapes right from wrong — popular from unpopular. That can be extremely detrimental and crippling especially to those who tend to be outsiders by default. When you have fellow children dictating norms more so than adults, that can set up an extremely toxic environment.
And that’s reflected in rising adolescent suicidal/homicidal rates. And while I’m here and despite the statistical improbability I’d be remiss if I didn’t say we had concern for school shootings just the same. It should be noted that my own mom pulled my older sister from school because of bullying and sexual harassment and that’s where it all began for the rest of us. (I should point out that at the time my household was religious, though I wouldn’t go so far as to say fundamentalist. We’ve all since changed from conservative religious Republicans to progressive leftist non-religious Democrats… Well except one of my siblings).
Related to the former, there tends to be less adult oversight and less dedicated attention. In Public schools you get 1:15 or 1:30 teacher-student ratios; with homeschooling you have a PARENT who cares more about your future than any teacher would in a 1:1-4 ratio, generally. And again not to downplay what teachers do, but the vast majority of grade-school work isn’t post-graduate by definition… There are well-established curricula and teaching methods that can be used as templates. And in this day, it’s easier than ever with massive resources that weren’t even fully available to my generation: state resources, supplementary cyber-school programs, robust libraries, etc.
While there isn’t a ton of data out there, what does exist seems to show that homeschooled kids do tend to perform above-average both academically in life satisfaction. I’ll dig up my sources of these for those further interested. There is a lot of concern about socialization, which you can still get by becoming involved in local communities, get into team sports, martial arts, improv/theater, volunteer work, etc. Ultimately I think there is just as much risk to public school teaching the wrong kind of social skills as opposed to learning the good kind.
Do I think homeschooling is for everyone? No. And that applies not just to the uniqueness of the child but also the circumstances and willingness of the parents. On the flip-side, I don’t believe public schooling is for everyone either. I don’t think I would’ve done well, but I do think someone like my sister would have. There are particular advantages in precision-targeting education to interests and personality. Catering to adhd, autism, social sensitivities, etc.
We want our kid to be surrounded by adults who love them; to be role-models rather than the loudest biggest kid in their classroom. We want our kids to maintain their passion for curiosity and learning and to grow in their own unique way without being forced into a one-size-fits-all cookie-cutter box often found in public schools.
To your final point that often gets raised about, “preparing for the real world,” the “real world” is QUITE different from public school, which can feel like an inescapable prison for many kids. Why? Because they have no agency as an adolescent. They are forced to go back to their hell-hole every day and not even have a modicum of protection from the school who tends to look the other way. Meanwhile your own parents have very limited capacity to help you… But when you’re an adult… At least there’s a level of decorum even for those bullies who grow up… And at least you have the capacity to say fuck-you in most cases and ghost someone, leave your job, and so forth. A child doesn’t have nearly the same agency, which is what makes school so difficult for many. And sure, some come through the other side despite severe bullying successfully, but I’d caution against making a survivor-bias fallacy.
Hopefully this gives a little insight into our perspective even if you may not necessarily agree personally.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply!
I think I understand where you’re coming from, and it seems to me that being an active parent gives a lot of those same benefits. And learning how to redirect and navigate difficult and/or adverse social situations is certainly a skill that’s used daily in the real world.
But I do see your point that isolated, controlled nurturing is almost definitely better than the worst case scenario of extreme bullying, particularly if the child isn’t able to cope to come out the other side.
I’d also argue that philosophy could also subconsciously teach your kid to run from adversity, even imagined adversity that hasn’t materialized.
But in the end, it’s your choice as a parent. Your reasons are respectable, and I hope your kids turn out better for it!
No problem, thanks. Yeah we’ll see. Both our kids are still pretty young so we’re only on the cusp of diving fully into it, but I think I’ve learned a lot from my own experience on where to improve in this 2nd generation. Either way, we’re not opposed to trying something different if it doesn’t seem to be working out, be it private or public school. We’re also very lucky that our circumstances give us the capacity to do this when I know many parents are just trying to make ends meet on dual incomes unfortunately.
Isn’t the idea that your kid is special and unique blinding yourself in front of your public school?
I don’t know what public schools are in the US. I know in France that diversity means a lot to how successful it is for everyone. That you need both silver spoon fed kids and poor kids in a classroom for the whole society to get greater out of everyone’s ability. Fail to do this and you’ll only feed segregation. France is now quite high in reproducing inequalities because of how it decreased diversity in school.
So I don’t know about US public schools, and I expect them to be quite bad. But I know for a fact that if you arz good parents you can have your kid in public school, and both your kid and school, and thus society as a whole, benefit from it.
Ultimately what you’re describing is that you like individualism and you like how to can both profit from and participate to it. It is a cultural problem in your country imo. And it is contaminating mine. Which makes me sad eventhough I have no kids.
In my view I don’t think teaching individualism is mutually-exclusive from teaching tolerance and acceptance of diversity. Sure I think conservatives have led the misconception that these are, but that’s not my view. To the contrary my family turned toward diversity despite my own parents being pretty low-educated, rural, religious blue-collar Republicans. Empathy was highly emphasized in my household mostly thanks to my mother and as a result I’m ardent progressive-leftist fighting for everyone’s rights. I do agree that at a societal level that we of course benefit from diversity; the “Melting Pot of America” — the huddled masses yearning to breathe free scribed below France’s gift, Lady Liberty, is after all a part of our identity.
For my kids I’ll get them involved in all sorts of extracurricular activities that will allow them to interact with all backgrounds; but I won’t put them in a situation where they feel trapped in an inescapable hell, for some of our schools can be pretty brutal. We plan to get them enrolled into community college a bit earlier, too, allowing them to earn college credits and get used to a classroom environment ahead of university.
I don’t think you get my point. Sure, you did educate your children the best you could, and for the best goal of humanism. But you did so beside your society. That means that, at your core, you believe you are better than your society, AND you think your children are better learned OUT of it.
This is individualism at its core. You go the lone wolf path if it means it can ensure the better for your own tribe. At the expense of the society as a whole.
This is a self feeding cycle. Society will get worse and worse while some lineages of individuals will get better. That’s how the liberal neo-feudalism is born.
I’m not blaming you. You do what you think is the best for your children in a society that pushes for this choice with all its strength. I’m merely trying to explain where it leads.
Individualism and Collectivism can coexist in my view. Again, I simply do not buy the premise that this is an either-or situation whereby I consider myself above society in all things; simply that in this narrow domain, I do believe I can do better with my child. Is that always the case? Of course not.
Naturally both pure individualism and pure collectivism carry their own risks and it’s an endless pursuit of perfection for a society to find the right balance between the two.
The short answer is the ability to tailor the entire learning experience to one child’s specific needs and interests. For example: My sister loves cooking so for history and chemistry she got to do it from a culinary perspective.
Extra curricular activities can help supplement public education but kids still need unstructured play time, so there is a limit to how much can be added.
I know two people who thrived in a homeschooling environment, for them it was 100% the right choice. 99% of the time it is the wrong choice.
Side note: Virtual learning has created a weird third option that isn’t quite public school but also isn’t homeschooling. This gets mixed in with homeschooling conversations but I think it confuses things and belongs in a separate category.
Sorry for the cheap gag, but I can’t help myself.
Those must have been some pretty dark lessons on the Holocaust.
haha that’s so fucked up hahah
Oh man did I miss that opportunity for jokes! Thank you, my mom and sister will get a kick out of that.
The American public school system is pretty bad. I don’t see why any parent that has the time and ability to homeschool wouldn’t do it.
Same. I tend not to mention it, especially IRL. I fucking loved it, and feel like I got a much better education than most public schools offer. But fucking fundamentalists make me feel like if someone finds out then they’re going to assume I’m a cousin fucker who thinks the planet is 300 years old and that Jesus rode a dinosaur to rescue America from the communists.
I was raised young earth evangelical and home schooled K-12.
That is not a flex, I have just summarized the trauma that is defining my middle years of life as I deconstruct and unpack it - now that I recognize it as the trauma that it is.
Good on you for realizing it and working to fix it ! Unfortunately many have fallen for the lies they were fed and never will realize it.
I was sort of homeschooled. I kept getting kicked out of school for… basically civil disobedience, and dad just had enough and decided to homeschool me.
he had a masters in education, and I got all my lessons from university professors for a few years. people still think I have a LOT more formal education than I do. there were some really incredible school trips, some of which I can’t even talk about without doxxing myself. I got three aquariums, and most of the backyard, and if I did anything other than routine maintenance, I had to justify what I was doing and why. if anything died that wasn’t supposed to, I had to cut it open. which is great, because I was a few years behind and really needed the motivation to catch up. there was a textbook, and I paid a LOT more attention to it than I did in any class. I called my teachers for help. I was far enough ahead on humanities and tech shit, dad really just had to occasionally remind me to do critical thinking about whatever I was reading, and throw books in my general direction. he made me write a few essays, which I resented at the time. I remember the sparse geology classes (really just a couple field trips-it wasn’t my whole education, and the previous year science class was geology, so there probably would have been more) I got involved a lot of rope.
I feel like I mostly wasted the opportunity, but I’m more well read than probably 95+% of the country, and was before I hit high school, where I promptly squandered my entire advantage with a year or two before dropping out, but I can still pass as having a degree in a small handful of subjects.
I agree that most parents should not be fucking home schooling their kids, but in my case, its probably the only way I got any education at all. I think every kid should get opportunities like I did, but can’t really think of a way to scale it up without just generally making the world better in every way. why are we not doing that, again?