I think the idea of felony murder makes sense, you’ve helped create a scenario where someone ended up murdered. I think it’s ridiculous that one of your accomplices can be that person though.
The real issue with this case is that he is 15 (16?). Obviously he should have been treated as a juvenile (especially since it sounds like they were all kids).
I think the idea of felony murder makes sense, you’ve helped create a scenario where someone ended up
Imagine we used that on white collar crimes.
A lawyer helped register a company that later went on to commit fraud. Charge her because she helped create a scenario where someone committed fraud. Charge the IT manager because he hooked up the computers that were later used in the fraud.
It seems pretty basic, but you should charge people for things they actually did. If multiple people planned a crime but only one person was caught executing the crime, you can charge them all with conspiracy. That makes sense. On the other hand, this seems to involve charging someone with a crime that wasn’t part of the plan. If it was a potential foreseeable consequence of the plan, there are crimes for that: reckless endangerment, negligence, etc.
I just can’t imagine a real scenario where someone did something wrong, but there are no laws on the books that match the wrong thing they did. So, instead, you have to charge them with the crime someone else did instead.
They’re not really equivalent. With RICO if you’ve committed multiple times of crimes from a certain list, and those crimes are related to an “enterprise” you can be charged with racketeering.
You’re not being charged with crimes someone else did. You’re being charged with masterminding a bunch of crimes. RICO charges are used against people at the head of an organization. Felony Murder is used against people who have the bad luck to be part of a group when someone else in the group pulls the trigger.
RICO goes after the organization in organized crime. It fills in a gap in the laws that maybe wasn’t there already, because none of the other laws went after the planning and organizing of the crimes. Felony murder seems to just exist to pile additional charges on someone who had already committed crimes that were already on the books, and make that person additionally responsible for the actions of a different person.
Actually by your definition I think RICO fits really well, RICO is for anyone who participated in the criminal enterprise (so not just the leaders of the organization) and to my understanding it is primarily to trump up charges against them to hold them accountable for the crimes of the organization.
That being said in general we don’t really go after the secondary effects of white collar crime the same way we do with violent crime.
You have it right but the part in parenthesis is backwards. It was originally used because we were only capable of prosecuting those who personally committed the crimes. We could not charge people who directed those things or paid for those things until RICO. It then followed though that you could use it in the reverse, like what you said, so you aren’t wrong.
No, the only time uber rich White Collar criminals are convicted and get real prison time is when they steal from richer White Collar criminals. That’s the only thing they care about: their wealth.
Felony murder would perhaps work if you were directly involved. For example, if the guy had been active in a shootout with the cops with his friend, or e en if he was then only one shooting at the cops and his friend was shot and killed, then yeah sure I get it. But here, the only common thread in the incident is the robbery, the surviving kid ran into the woods to escape while his friend actively engaged the cops. They weren’t acting together at that point. Otherwise, yeah I agree that there also should have been safe guards in place since he was a minor at the time as well.
If there’s a 2-man team of a spotter and a sniper, the sniper is pulling the trigger and the spotter is calling the shots, then sure, charge the spotter with murder too.
In virtually every other case, there are already crimes for what the other person did. Use those existing crimes.
This also makes me think of SWATting. Yeah, it’s awful to do that. But, 99% of the blame for a successful SWATting should fall on the cops. Someone makes a claim over the phone, and as a result you kick down a door and charge in, guns blazing? SWATting wouldn’t work if cops could go to prison for kicking in the door at a house where nothing was going on. If that were a risk, they’d stop and verify the facts before making a decision that could ruin their lives. The only reason it works is that cops are given immunity for just about everything, so there’s no real downside to shoot first and verify assumptions later.
Charging the kid for his buddy getting killed by the cops is some kind of black mirror garbage that can only happen in a world where cops can face no responsibilities for their actions. If we lived in a world where cops could face responsibility for their actions, the cop could get charged with murder. Now, he’d easily beat that murder charge because he was acting in self-defense, as the guy he shot was shooting at him. How twisted is it that the person who actually fired the killing shot could claim self-defense, but the person who was running away at the time can’t make that claim because he wasn’t the one who actually fired the shot?
You can find videos on YouTube of the father of the hyper paranoid and reactional cop. He’s been doing seminars for over a decade telling young recruits that 'THEY WANT TO KILL YOU, SHOOT FIRST, THE CITY WILL BAIL YOU OUT!"
I can’t remember his name, but any idiot good with YouTube and Google can find it.
I posit if you’re that much of a frightened and paranoid pussy, you shouldn’t be a cop. But that’s just me.
Yeah, I’ve heard of that guy. He’s one of the many reasons why the US police suck so much. But, he can only influence cops in a world where cops can’t be held legally responsible for their actions. If cops could be charged with murder / manslaughter people would avoid his course because they’d get sent to prison for following his advice.
You live in a fantasy land where distance apparently prevents consequences.
You know what, answer one question. What else besides run into the woods could that kid do, considering he had no weapon? Armed home invasion already is a 20 year felony, you don’t think if he had a gun too he wouldnt have engaged the police?
It doesn’t matter what he could have done, what matters is what he did. What he did was illegal, he should be charged with that. He shouldn’t be charged for his friend getting killed by a cop. Those were actions taken by other people.
I think the idea of felony murder makes sense, you’ve helped create a scenario where someone ended up murdered. I think it’s ridiculous that one of your accomplices can be that person though.
The real issue with this case is that he is 15 (16?). Obviously he should have been treated as a juvenile (especially since it sounds like they were all kids).
Imagine we used that on white collar crimes.
A lawyer helped register a company that later went on to commit fraud. Charge her because she helped create a scenario where someone committed fraud. Charge the IT manager because he hooked up the computers that were later used in the fraud.
It seems pretty basic, but you should charge people for things they actually did. If multiple people planned a crime but only one person was caught executing the crime, you can charge them all with conspiracy. That makes sense. On the other hand, this seems to involve charging someone with a crime that wasn’t part of the plan. If it was a potential foreseeable consequence of the plan, there are crimes for that: reckless endangerment, negligence, etc.
I just can’t imagine a real scenario where someone did something wrong, but there are no laws on the books that match the wrong thing they did. So, instead, you have to charge them with the crime someone else did instead.
I think RICO is a white collar equivalent to the concept of felony murder, although maybe not a 1-to-1.
You get a harsher penalty by basically being involved/contributing in a large operation.
They’re not really equivalent. With RICO if you’ve committed multiple times of crimes from a certain list, and those crimes are related to an “enterprise” you can be charged with racketeering.
You’re not being charged with crimes someone else did. You’re being charged with masterminding a bunch of crimes. RICO charges are used against people at the head of an organization. Felony Murder is used against people who have the bad luck to be part of a group when someone else in the group pulls the trigger.
RICO goes after the organization in organized crime. It fills in a gap in the laws that maybe wasn’t there already, because none of the other laws went after the planning and organizing of the crimes. Felony murder seems to just exist to pile additional charges on someone who had already committed crimes that were already on the books, and make that person additionally responsible for the actions of a different person.
Actually by your definition I think RICO fits really well, RICO is for anyone who participated in the criminal enterprise (so not just the leaders of the organization) and to my understanding it is primarily to trump up charges against them to hold them accountable for the crimes of the organization.
That being said in general we don’t really go after the secondary effects of white collar crime the same way we do with violent crime.
You have it right but the part in parenthesis is backwards. It was originally used because we were only capable of prosecuting those who personally committed the crimes. We could not charge people who directed those things or paid for those things until RICO. It then followed though that you could use it in the reverse, like what you said, so you aren’t wrong.
No, the only time uber rich White Collar criminals are convicted and get real prison time is when they steal from richer White Collar criminals. That’s the only thing they care about: their wealth.
Simple. White Collar criminals can afford real lawyers who take the time to build a case.
White Makes Right.
Felony murder would perhaps work if you were directly involved. For example, if the guy had been active in a shootout with the cops with his friend, or e en if he was then only one shooting at the cops and his friend was shot and killed, then yeah sure I get it. But here, the only common thread in the incident is the robbery, the surviving kid ran into the woods to escape while his friend actively engaged the cops. They weren’t acting together at that point. Otherwise, yeah I agree that there also should have been safe guards in place since he was a minor at the time as well.
If there’s a 2-man team of a spotter and a sniper, the sniper is pulling the trigger and the spotter is calling the shots, then sure, charge the spotter with murder too.
In virtually every other case, there are already crimes for what the other person did. Use those existing crimes.
This also makes me think of SWATting. Yeah, it’s awful to do that. But, 99% of the blame for a successful SWATting should fall on the cops. Someone makes a claim over the phone, and as a result you kick down a door and charge in, guns blazing? SWATting wouldn’t work if cops could go to prison for kicking in the door at a house where nothing was going on. If that were a risk, they’d stop and verify the facts before making a decision that could ruin their lives. The only reason it works is that cops are given immunity for just about everything, so there’s no real downside to shoot first and verify assumptions later.
Charging the kid for his buddy getting killed by the cops is some kind of black mirror garbage that can only happen in a world where cops can face no responsibilities for their actions. If we lived in a world where cops could face responsibility for their actions, the cop could get charged with murder. Now, he’d easily beat that murder charge because he was acting in self-defense, as the guy he shot was shooting at him. How twisted is it that the person who actually fired the killing shot could claim self-defense, but the person who was running away at the time can’t make that claim because he wasn’t the one who actually fired the shot?
You can find videos on YouTube of the father of the hyper paranoid and reactional cop. He’s been doing seminars for over a decade telling young recruits that 'THEY WANT TO KILL YOU, SHOOT FIRST, THE CITY WILL BAIL YOU OUT!"
I can’t remember his name, but any idiot good with YouTube and Google can find it.
I posit if you’re that much of a frightened and paranoid pussy, you shouldn’t be a cop. But that’s just me.
Yeah, I’ve heard of that guy. He’s one of the many reasons why the US police suck so much. But, he can only influence cops in a world where cops can’t be held legally responsible for their actions. If cops could be charged with murder / manslaughter people would avoid his course because they’d get sent to prison for following his advice.
You live in a fantasy land where distance apparently prevents consequences.
You know what, answer one question. What else besides run into the woods could that kid do, considering he had no weapon? Armed home invasion already is a 20 year felony, you don’t think if he had a gun too he wouldnt have engaged the police?
It doesn’t matter what he could have done, what matters is what he did. What he did was illegal, he should be charged with that. He shouldn’t be charged for his friend getting killed by a cop. Those were actions taken by other people.