The meme isn’t really referencing the actor, but rather the character. Eliot might not be a woman, but the character is. When cis guys play female characters, we still refer to the character as female. I don’t see why it should be any different when a trans guy plays a female character.
Actually the character is canonically a trans man named Victor… This is from Umbrella Academy but before the character came out. You are correct in general respects just this example particularly is both of two men both canonically and non canonically so its actually kind of not super cool to use this particular image for this gag but largely forgivable if someone honestly was completely unaware of that context when making this meme which if you peaced out before the next season would be a very understandable mistake.
It was actually super cool, when Elliot came out he went to the showrunners to let them know they had nothing to fear, he wouldn’t change his appearance or anything because he was signed on for the show length.
And the show runners in an industry first established a new gold standard by telling him “Nah, how about we just make Vanya into Victor and make it canonical.” So they worked with Page giving him a lot of creative control over the character’s personal journey and showed probably the best depiction of early transition on tv.
TV show, not movie, but no, definitely not saying we should ban anything.
Given that the series handled his transition fairly head on, pretty sure no one wants to destroy the older seasons.
My only question was that this meme is directly referring to the top character as a woman. Most times I see this meme it doesn’t have any references to gender (“morning shift going to work at 6am / night shift coming home at 6am,” or something like that).
Trans etiquette wise you aren’t correct. If someone transitions you apply current identity to all photos taken beforehand because the person is the same person. In the same way a picture of a pilot taken before they got their pilots licence is still a picture of a pilot your current understanding of a person updates to current and is retroactively applied.
Saying " this is so and so back when they were a woman" is considered rude since people generally look at their pre transition selves as not having a gender that aligns with their birth sex but rather a stage where they and other people around them did not know their current needs. People will generally not check you on it though if they think that your understanding is very basic. Proper nuance would say “Back when they identified as a woman” because then the implication is that the person didn’t nessisarily change, but the general understanding and social category did… but functionally speaking it’s close enough for someone who isn’t up on best practice.
I don’t think I follow that logic. If I was shown a photo of a baby (that eventually grows up to become a pilot) and asked if it was a photo of a pilot, I would say “no, it’s a photo of a baby, babies can’t be pilots”. Sure, it’s a photo of a baby that will become a pilot, but at that point, it’s just a baby, even though they are the same person.
“Back when they identified as a woman” is the same thing as “back when they were a woman”, because being a woman is merely an act of identifying as one, consciously or otherwise. There’s no universal truth for “being a woman”, gender is a human construct and therefore subjective, which means identifying as a woman is being a woman and vice-versa.
I mean you can get it or not it’s not a debate. Trans etiquette is something that a concensus of trans people request of other people and we set the standards based on how gender makes us feel, not how cis or even isolated trans individuals understand gender. This isn’t an exercise of strict logic. This is dealing with a culture of people dealing with a problem you don’t have and telling you where their pain points are. You don’t have to listen just like you don’t have to obey another culture’s etiquette when you are abroad… but expect to be treated as out to lunch or annoying to deal with. If I took you to meet other people in my community and you did that to one of their past photos I would be embarrassed on your behalf. If you did that to me I would probably not bring it up but internally wince because unless you were a friend I would treat you as a temporary inconvenience.
When someone says “I used to be a woman” my reaction is largely that is just incorrect. I never was a woman there was simply a stage of my life where I was afraid to be a man or unaware that other options were possible. In short - I was coerced. Other people identified me as a woman based on the sex characteristics I had and I identified as a woman because I did so out of fear of social reprisal or because I was kept in ignorance by dint of a society refusing to treat that knowledge as something I was allowed to have. Saying I “was a woman” would imply that I chose to do so freely, which I did not. Quite frankly when they look at a picture of me and read my past self as a woman it’s a reminder that to a lot of people that presentation and body type is all that they need to misgender me in a round about way. They are referring to a time when I was a prisoner to a system and identifying based on what they think I should be coded, not how I code myself. You think it’s fine to say I changed from woman to man because of social category and that it’s a construct - but to be honest that’s a pretty cis take. I react negatively to my SEX characteristics and use gender performance to stop people from bringing up my assumed sex characteristics into conversation. Language is a mirror through which we catch glimpses of ourselves. The mirror does me damage, I don’t linger in front of physical ones and I ask people not to use linguistic ones. When you call me “she” even in past tense you are referring to aspects of my body that I do not have the capacity to feel neutrally about.
I know a fair number of other trans folks who wish to expunge every pretransition photo from existence in part because they invite people to comment on this sort of temporal understanding of gender. If we could have you forget we were ever our birth sex we would. Instead most compromise by asking for a retroactive update.
Frankly, I don’t understand most of what you said, I must be lacking some context. But I do want to clarify one point, which will help me understand a lot of things better. You said:
Saying I “was a woman” would imply that I chose to do so freely, which I did not.
How does one actually identify if they are a “man” or a “woman”? What list of criteria makes one of a certain gender?
How does one actually identify if they are a “man” or a “woman”? What list of criteria makes one of a certain gender?
Okay so “am I a trans person? 101”. A lot of what cis people perceive as gender is best described by gender performativity theory. Basically at birth you were coded using physical sex characteristics as a guideline and a whole complex kicked into gear. You were probably praised for performing gender well and informed and shamed by others when you did not conform. This creates an external goad of social expectation that trained you how to feel about yourself. Most cis people don’t appear to really question this because as long as nothing interferes with your ability to fit this model and cause social friction it’s fine. Some challenge the conventions but not really identity. Gender is a thing you do rather than are under this model because it’s a mass social phenomenon of culture clustered vaguely around sex characteristics. Being a Femboy for instance is something you perform. It’s not a trans identity even though they might be easily mistaken for a trans woman.
But then there’s a VERY different experience… And this is the rough thing to explain to cis people because it literally does not make sense. That’s the hard part in this dialogue. How gender works for trans people is strictly not logical and if you experience this phenomenon you cannot logic yourself out of it no matter how hard you try… Because now we are dealing with a subconscious function. Importantly this is not a delusion. A delusion would be belief in something that doesn’t exist, this is the opposite. This is intense but uncontrollable feedback about observable physical reality.
It you are trans, for whatever reason, your brain has an internalized feedback system that targets your physically held sex characteristics. Your perceptible sex characteristics make you feel things completely independent of anything external. You feel intense envy for sex characteristics you see other people have that you do not. Emulation of those characteristics make you feel incredible for literally no logical reason…it’s like getting hit by a truck full of dopamine even when you acknowledge it makes no sense to feel that way. Reminders that you don’t have those characteristics make you feel completely deficient. You can feel disconnected from your body and in social spaces you can feel fake or invisible, unable to express yourself. Oftentimes this friction between constant internal feedback and external pressure to conform to the opposite of that feedback causes stress which means you get stress related illnesses. Digestive issues, headaches, skin problems, harmful nervous behaviours, depression, social anxiety, escapist self medication or addiction issues… Some get metaphysical about this in the idea that there is a sort of spiritual aspect that never aligned but it’s probably some kind of brain structure thing. But the idea of “being a (enter whatever here)” stems from the very consistent feedback that aggregates around a specific sexual phenotype. If you feel like your life essentially sucks because you don’t have the physical characteristics that come from a masculine puberty then you can backwards engineer that feeling into the sentiement “I should be a man”.
So when you face this friction between external feedback and internal feedback you have two routes to combat that stress.
Option one : You physically change the features that cause the feedback. You no longer are envious because you have the feature you want and you don’t feel deficient or self conscious anymore because your physical reality has changed. The internal feedback loop is satisfied and you get that nice hit of dopamine from all forms of witnessing your physical body in action.
Option two - you remove the external feedback.
One way to not obsess over what you feel you are missing is to not be constantly reminded. Changing how everyone addresses you is part of this. When people generally call you a woman for instance what they are doing is adding up all your physical features, coming to a conclusion based on what they physically witness and spitting it back out as a physical assessment of you. Your internal feedback system is VERY AWARE of this computation happening and reverse engineers it instantly. Internally it is something like this : "This person called me ‘she’ because they noticed my high voice (oh how I wish my voice was lower!) and because I have boobs (fuck I wish I could just slice the damn things off) and because of my narrow shoulders (Gotta work out more) and is now creating an expectation of conforming to a cluster of social garbage and treat me like I am different from men which sucks but makes sense because I have a high voice (fuck I should talk less) and boobs (maybe if I starve myself…) " and the thought spiral continues.
So what you can do is trick the brain. You ask to be called by male forms of address and ask to be treated as culturally male and what happens is basically your mind fills in the empty room. You might not have the physical characteristics but it becomes theoretically possible to the mind that maybe those physical features aren’t actually being noticed. It creates a sort of protective uncertainty. It obscures the witnessable physical assessment aspect of someone else’s calculation of your sex. Even if logically it’s pretty obvious what your birth sex is and you are absolutely sure someone is just gassing you up it denies that internal feedback immediate purchase. It creates room to consider - maybe my physical features aren’t all that different from what I desperately wish they could be. “Man” in this usage is not just a social category. It’s verbally applied medicine.
Of course the issue with option 2 strictly is that it’s kind of only good at handling the feedback that comes from interacting with other people. No amount of people calling me a man is gunna help when I am in front of a mirror, or when I talk and hear my own voice or demonstrate some kind of physicality that my cis male counterparts do not have. But sometimes you get what you get and it has to be enough. Not all fully baked transitions make us perfectly indistinguishable from cis people. The process is imperfect so we ask other people to socially make up for physical shortfall.
A lot of trans people realize how important these things are once that friction is resolved. Like if you suddenly have like five different physical maladies that suddenly clear up because they were caused by stress you have normalized your entire life and you suddenly feel like going outside your house takes half the energy it used to it becomes really obvious what you’re doing is working and nessisary. The experience can be a lot like quiting a very bad job that was slowly killing you.
In the same way a picture of a pilot taken before they got their pilots licence is still a picture of a pilot
Except you don’t do that unless you’re talking about the person in the present context and comparing to the old one. Getting a pilots license or some other certification doesn’t make you always have had been that. A picture of a three year old playing with blocks is not a picture of a pilot, even if twenty years later they would get a pilot’s license. But it might be a picture of Bob, who later on would become a pilot.
QED the pilot thing was probably a bad example I won’t use again.
How about this, if someone changed their name and you saw a picture of them from before that update… Maybe a baby pic let’s say, what name would you use when identifying the person in the picture?
trans people are trans from birth. he was always trans, he just didn’t know it at that point. transitioning does not retroactively change reality, reality was always like that we just didn’t know. I think they handled his transition amazingly in the show, but your take is bad.
So general flow chart here starts with context. When an actor plays a character that character’s gender is considered before the actor.
In this case this picture is from Umbrella Academy but before the character comes out as a trans man. The role was specifically altered for Page by the show runners to make the role more comfortable for the actor (he offered to delay transition goals for the production but the production being incredibly awesome decided that this was something they could flex) so this meme is referencing one of the most recognizable trans actors in the world in a part where the character’s coming out was basically happening during Page’s transition.
Since the character is trans but this pic is before the transition it follows real world etiquette where pre transition photos should use current preferences of identity.
So the answer is from the trans community standpoint is that unless you jumped out of the series before that reveal and were fully unaware then yeah, making this meme with this pic with this specific context is pretty gauche but an easy mistake.
Is using an old picture of Elliot Page — and referencing women — considererd poor form? Honest question, I really don’t know the etiquette.
The meme isn’t really referencing the actor, but rather the character. Eliot might not be a woman, but the character is. When cis guys play female characters, we still refer to the character as female. I don’t see why it should be any different when a trans guy plays a female character.
Actually the character is canonically a trans man named Victor… This is from Umbrella Academy but before the character came out. You are correct in general respects just this example particularly is both of two men both canonically and non canonically so its actually kind of not super cool to use this particular image for this gag but largely forgivable if someone honestly was completely unaware of that context when making this meme which if you peaced out before the next season would be a very understandable mistake.
Oh, I didn’t even realize it was from umbrella academy, or that that show had any trans characters. Yeah, that context definitely changes things.
It was actually super cool, when Elliot came out he went to the showrunners to let them know they had nothing to fear, he wouldn’t change his appearance or anything because he was signed on for the show length.
And the show runners in an industry first established a new gold standard by telling him “Nah, how about we just make Vanya into Victor and make it canonical.” So they worked with Page giving him a lot of creative control over the character’s personal journey and showed probably the best depiction of early transition on tv.
Vanya did transition to Victor in the show.
It’s a meme from a movie. Should they ban this movie now and destroy all copies?
TV show, not movie, but no, definitely not saying we should ban anything.
Given that the series handled his transition fairly head on, pretty sure no one wants to destroy the older seasons.
My only question was that this meme is directly referring to the top character as a woman. Most times I see this meme it doesn’t have any references to gender (“morning shift going to work at 6am / night shift coming home at 6am,” or something like that).
The photo is of a woman because at the time of taking it the character (and the actor) was a woman. Transition shouldn’t retroactively change reality.
Trans etiquette wise you aren’t correct. If someone transitions you apply current identity to all photos taken beforehand because the person is the same person. In the same way a picture of a pilot taken before they got their pilots licence is still a picture of a pilot your current understanding of a person updates to current and is retroactively applied.
Saying " this is so and so back when they were a woman" is considered rude since people generally look at their pre transition selves as not having a gender that aligns with their birth sex but rather a stage where they and other people around them did not know their current needs. People will generally not check you on it though if they think that your understanding is very basic. Proper nuance would say “Back when they identified as a woman” because then the implication is that the person didn’t nessisarily change, but the general understanding and social category did… but functionally speaking it’s close enough for someone who isn’t up on best practice.
I don’t think I follow that logic. If I was shown a photo of a baby (that eventually grows up to become a pilot) and asked if it was a photo of a pilot, I would say “no, it’s a photo of a baby, babies can’t be pilots”. Sure, it’s a photo of a baby that will become a pilot, but at that point, it’s just a baby, even though they are the same person.
“Back when they identified as a woman” is the same thing as “back when they were a woman”, because being a woman is merely an act of identifying as one, consciously or otherwise. There’s no universal truth for “being a woman”, gender is a human construct and therefore subjective, which means identifying as a woman is being a woman and vice-versa.
I mean you can get it or not it’s not a debate. Trans etiquette is something that a concensus of trans people request of other people and we set the standards based on how gender makes us feel, not how cis or even isolated trans individuals understand gender. This isn’t an exercise of strict logic. This is dealing with a culture of people dealing with a problem you don’t have and telling you where their pain points are. You don’t have to listen just like you don’t have to obey another culture’s etiquette when you are abroad… but expect to be treated as out to lunch or annoying to deal with. If I took you to meet other people in my community and you did that to one of their past photos I would be embarrassed on your behalf. If you did that to me I would probably not bring it up but internally wince because unless you were a friend I would treat you as a temporary inconvenience.
When someone says “I used to be a woman” my reaction is largely that is just incorrect. I never was a woman there was simply a stage of my life where I was afraid to be a man or unaware that other options were possible. In short - I was coerced. Other people identified me as a woman based on the sex characteristics I had and I identified as a woman because I did so out of fear of social reprisal or because I was kept in ignorance by dint of a society refusing to treat that knowledge as something I was allowed to have. Saying I “was a woman” would imply that I chose to do so freely, which I did not. Quite frankly when they look at a picture of me and read my past self as a woman it’s a reminder that to a lot of people that presentation and body type is all that they need to misgender me in a round about way. They are referring to a time when I was a prisoner to a system and identifying based on what they think I should be coded, not how I code myself. You think it’s fine to say I changed from woman to man because of social category and that it’s a construct - but to be honest that’s a pretty cis take. I react negatively to my SEX characteristics and use gender performance to stop people from bringing up my assumed sex characteristics into conversation. Language is a mirror through which we catch glimpses of ourselves. The mirror does me damage, I don’t linger in front of physical ones and I ask people not to use linguistic ones. When you call me “she” even in past tense you are referring to aspects of my body that I do not have the capacity to feel neutrally about.
I know a fair number of other trans folks who wish to expunge every pretransition photo from existence in part because they invite people to comment on this sort of temporal understanding of gender. If we could have you forget we were ever our birth sex we would. Instead most compromise by asking for a retroactive update.
Frankly, I don’t understand most of what you said, I must be lacking some context. But I do want to clarify one point, which will help me understand a lot of things better. You said:
How does one actually identify if they are a “man” or a “woman”? What list of criteria makes one of a certain gender?
Okay so “am I a trans person? 101”. A lot of what cis people perceive as gender is best described by gender performativity theory. Basically at birth you were coded using physical sex characteristics as a guideline and a whole complex kicked into gear. You were probably praised for performing gender well and informed and shamed by others when you did not conform. This creates an external goad of social expectation that trained you how to feel about yourself. Most cis people don’t appear to really question this because as long as nothing interferes with your ability to fit this model and cause social friction it’s fine. Some challenge the conventions but not really identity. Gender is a thing you do rather than are under this model because it’s a mass social phenomenon of culture clustered vaguely around sex characteristics. Being a Femboy for instance is something you perform. It’s not a trans identity even though they might be easily mistaken for a trans woman.
But then there’s a VERY different experience… And this is the rough thing to explain to cis people because it literally does not make sense. That’s the hard part in this dialogue. How gender works for trans people is strictly not logical and if you experience this phenomenon you cannot logic yourself out of it no matter how hard you try… Because now we are dealing with a subconscious function. Importantly this is not a delusion. A delusion would be belief in something that doesn’t exist, this is the opposite. This is intense but uncontrollable feedback about observable physical reality.
It you are trans, for whatever reason, your brain has an internalized feedback system that targets your physically held sex characteristics. Your perceptible sex characteristics make you feel things completely independent of anything external. You feel intense envy for sex characteristics you see other people have that you do not. Emulation of those characteristics make you feel incredible for literally no logical reason…it’s like getting hit by a truck full of dopamine even when you acknowledge it makes no sense to feel that way. Reminders that you don’t have those characteristics make you feel completely deficient. You can feel disconnected from your body and in social spaces you can feel fake or invisible, unable to express yourself. Oftentimes this friction between constant internal feedback and external pressure to conform to the opposite of that feedback causes stress which means you get stress related illnesses. Digestive issues, headaches, skin problems, harmful nervous behaviours, depression, social anxiety, escapist self medication or addiction issues… Some get metaphysical about this in the idea that there is a sort of spiritual aspect that never aligned but it’s probably some kind of brain structure thing. But the idea of “being a (enter whatever here)” stems from the very consistent feedback that aggregates around a specific sexual phenotype. If you feel like your life essentially sucks because you don’t have the physical characteristics that come from a masculine puberty then you can backwards engineer that feeling into the sentiement “I should be a man”.
So when you face this friction between external feedback and internal feedback you have two routes to combat that stress.
Option one : You physically change the features that cause the feedback. You no longer are envious because you have the feature you want and you don’t feel deficient or self conscious anymore because your physical reality has changed. The internal feedback loop is satisfied and you get that nice hit of dopamine from all forms of witnessing your physical body in action.
Option two - you remove the external feedback.
One way to not obsess over what you feel you are missing is to not be constantly reminded. Changing how everyone addresses you is part of this. When people generally call you a woman for instance what they are doing is adding up all your physical features, coming to a conclusion based on what they physically witness and spitting it back out as a physical assessment of you. Your internal feedback system is VERY AWARE of this computation happening and reverse engineers it instantly. Internally it is something like this : "This person called me ‘she’ because they noticed my high voice (oh how I wish my voice was lower!) and because I have boobs (fuck I wish I could just slice the damn things off) and because of my narrow shoulders (Gotta work out more) and is now creating an expectation of conforming to a cluster of social garbage and treat me like I am different from men which sucks but makes sense because I have a high voice (fuck I should talk less) and boobs (maybe if I starve myself…) " and the thought spiral continues.
So what you can do is trick the brain. You ask to be called by male forms of address and ask to be treated as culturally male and what happens is basically your mind fills in the empty room. You might not have the physical characteristics but it becomes theoretically possible to the mind that maybe those physical features aren’t actually being noticed. It creates a sort of protective uncertainty. It obscures the witnessable physical assessment aspect of someone else’s calculation of your sex. Even if logically it’s pretty obvious what your birth sex is and you are absolutely sure someone is just gassing you up it denies that internal feedback immediate purchase. It creates room to consider - maybe my physical features aren’t all that different from what I desperately wish they could be. “Man” in this usage is not just a social category. It’s verbally applied medicine.
Of course the issue with option 2 strictly is that it’s kind of only good at handling the feedback that comes from interacting with other people. No amount of people calling me a man is gunna help when I am in front of a mirror, or when I talk and hear my own voice or demonstrate some kind of physicality that my cis male counterparts do not have. But sometimes you get what you get and it has to be enough. Not all fully baked transitions make us perfectly indistinguishable from cis people. The process is imperfect so we ask other people to socially make up for physical shortfall.
A lot of trans people realize how important these things are once that friction is resolved. Like if you suddenly have like five different physical maladies that suddenly clear up because they were caused by stress you have normalized your entire life and you suddenly feel like going outside your house takes half the energy it used to it becomes really obvious what you’re doing is working and nessisary. The experience can be a lot like quiting a very bad job that was slowly killing you.
Except you don’t do that unless you’re talking about the person in the present context and comparing to the old one. Getting a pilots license or some other certification doesn’t make you always have had been that. A picture of a three year old playing with blocks is not a picture of a pilot, even if twenty years later they would get a pilot’s license. But it might be a picture of Bob, who later on would become a pilot.
QED the pilot thing was probably a bad example I won’t use again.
How about this, if someone changed their name and you saw a picture of them from before that update… Maybe a baby pic let’s say, what name would you use when identifying the person in the picture?
Identified* as a woman
That’s what being a woman means, no?
Sure, but I think the clarity is important, especially when others see dishonesty without it
Except they were never a woman, they just weren’t out
trans people are trans from birth. he was always trans, he just didn’t know it at that point. transitioning does not retroactively change reality, reality was always like that we just didn’t know. I think they handled his transition amazingly in the show, but your take is bad.
I think this depends how you perceive your pre-transition self. That advice is a good default though.
Personally I find myself switching between both perceptions of my past self, which is even more fucky since I’m closeted.
Gender is a fuck.
So general flow chart here starts with context. When an actor plays a character that character’s gender is considered before the actor.
In this case this picture is from Umbrella Academy but before the character comes out as a trans man. The role was specifically altered for Page by the show runners to make the role more comfortable for the actor (he offered to delay transition goals for the production but the production being incredibly awesome decided that this was something they could flex) so this meme is referencing one of the most recognizable trans actors in the world in a part where the character’s coming out was basically happening during Page’s transition.
Since the character is trans but this pic is before the transition it follows real world etiquette where pre transition photos should use current preferences of identity.
So the answer is from the trans community standpoint is that unless you jumped out of the series before that reveal and were fully unaware then yeah, making this meme with this pic with this specific context is pretty gauche but an easy mistake.