Israel invaded their country and is committing genocide. It should come to no one’s surprise that Israel fucks around and finds out during a war they started.
The issue with Hamas existing is due to its founding charter, see https://www.adl.org/resources/article/hamas-its-own-words for details on this but a brief summary is that it does not permit Israel to exist, period. There’s no theoretical deal or goal to reach for the both of them to existing side by side in peace.
there is under international law a diffrent set of rules of war the Palistianans operate under than Isn’treal do as Palistine is seen as an opressed and colonised people fighting for independence
There are chances the outcome would be different if hamas released hostages, or didn’t attack Israel on October 7th. Those things were not smart. It didn’t serve any good purpose. A smarter thing would have been to prepare for such an attack from Israel by building defenses to protect civilians at the very least.
No there are not, this has been ongoing for decades and decades. Things would not have magically improved, it would have continued to be a slow death sentence whilst the world ignored it.
What Hamas did, no matter how tragic, has done more to bring light and international support to the plight of the Palestinian peoples and exposed Israel as the monster it is than anything else ever has.
What Hamas did had a totally unsurprising result, as distressing as that is, that inevitably resulted in, and continues to result in, unacceptable civilian suffering. Moreover, even though Israel has slow walked towards a regressive ethnofascist state since at least the Rabin’s assassination, the October attack straight up merced whatever dwindling progressive peace activist movements on the Israeli side that were still continuing the struggle.
One can be anti-Zionist and pro-basic human decency without romanticizing a violent religious fundamentalist organization that has at this point done almost nothing but harm to the interests and well-being of the people whom it purports to be protecting.
That didn’t worth it in my opinion. The level of international support is nowhere enough. And again, they could build defenses to decrease the number of victims.
Also the premise of “Israel is a monster” sentiment is hugely weakened by the monstrosity of the October attack itself.
Gaza is an open air prison. The ICJ concluded that it still was occupied since Israel retreated from it militarily as Israel still controlled all Land and Sea borders and destroyed the airport. Israel limited all sorts of goods going into Gaza well before October 7. They blocked construction material, telecommunications, limited medical and food supplies… The goal always was to slowly deteriorate the living conditions in Gaza so more people would leave, allowing Israel to occupy and annex again.
Hamas had and has very limited resources, which is why they fight in this way. And the world was quite happy to look away at Israel illegally occupying, annexing, killing civillians when it feels like in the Westbank and at demonstrations, running torture camps and taking tens of thousands of Palestinians hostage through “administrative detention” without any charge, without any due process, without even access to lawyers.
Gaza population was steadily increasing for all these years. This doesn’t bode well with the “prison” sentiment in my opinion. They had institutions. They could teach their own population. Their actions could be more logical. Instead it seems they’ve been spreading terrorist propaganda (literally pushing their children to become merciless terrorists) and spending resources on building offensive tech instead of defenses. I can not justify actions of Israel (though I can understand why the ground operation was started) but there is no way I can agree that actions of hamas had any logical ground.
No it’s not. More than one side can be monstrous in a conflict. “Yeah well but they did X so it’s okay that we did Y” is bible level reasoning aka no reasoning and pretty much what is causing the whole thing anyway.
I didn’t mean to say anything that Israel did was okay. But a lot of it is understandable, e.g. the ground operation was very well expected by everyone when it became clear the hostages are not getting released. No matter how you look at it, Gaza was not ready.
And if we consider the October attack itself, only some of it is understandable (“they couldn’t bear with oppression any longer” sentiment, which itself is problematic at best).
Yeah and?
Israel invaded their country and is committing genocide. It should come to no one’s surprise that Israel fucks around and finds out during a war they started.
Israel killing civilians does not excuse Hama’s killing civilians.
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Nooo why are people hating the colonialists :(
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Exactly! This is why I say Israel has a right to defend itself while Hamas should not be allowed to exist.
Though recent events (like Israel’s pager attack) have made this argument much weaker…
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I otherwise agree with all your points.
The issue with Hamas existing is due to its founding charter, see https://www.adl.org/resources/article/hamas-its-own-words for details on this but a brief summary is that it does not permit Israel to exist, period. There’s no theoretical deal or goal to reach for the both of them to existing side by side in peace.
Hezbollah has similar issues.
there is under international law a diffrent set of rules of war the Palistianans operate under than Isn’treal do as Palistine is seen as an opressed and colonised people fighting for independence
Source?
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What part of that is in civil? Or they mad about the bibi part?
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This round of fighting started after the Hamas attack though.
Just wondering, when do you think this war started?
Israel bombs civilians : OMG!
Hamas bombs civilians: GOOD.
Jesus Lemmy
Yeah, how dare people treat a genocidal state and a people resisting genocide to different standards!!!1!
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No more than you support Israel randomly slaughtering Palestinians. Because that’s exactly what they’re doing and have been doing for the last year.
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Genocidal state? Are we talking about America?
There are chances the outcome would be different if hamas released hostages, or didn’t attack Israel on October 7th. Those things were not smart. It didn’t serve any good purpose. A smarter thing would have been to prepare for such an attack from Israel by building defenses to protect civilians at the very least.
No there are not, this has been ongoing for decades and decades. Things would not have magically improved, it would have continued to be a slow death sentence whilst the world ignored it.
What Hamas did, no matter how tragic, has done more to bring light and international support to the plight of the Palestinian peoples and exposed Israel as the monster it is than anything else ever has.
What Hamas did had a totally unsurprising result, as distressing as that is, that inevitably resulted in, and continues to result in, unacceptable civilian suffering. Moreover, even though Israel has slow walked towards a regressive ethnofascist state since at least the Rabin’s assassination, the October attack straight up merced whatever dwindling progressive peace activist movements on the Israeli side that were still continuing the struggle.
One can be anti-Zionist and pro-basic human decency without romanticizing a violent religious fundamentalist organization that has at this point done almost nothing but harm to the interests and well-being of the people whom it purports to be protecting.
That didn’t worth it in my opinion. The level of international support is nowhere enough. And again, they could build defenses to decrease the number of victims.
Also the premise of “Israel is a monster” sentiment is hugely weakened by the monstrosity of the October attack itself.
Gaza is an open air prison. The ICJ concluded that it still was occupied since Israel retreated from it militarily as Israel still controlled all Land and Sea borders and destroyed the airport. Israel limited all sorts of goods going into Gaza well before October 7. They blocked construction material, telecommunications, limited medical and food supplies… The goal always was to slowly deteriorate the living conditions in Gaza so more people would leave, allowing Israel to occupy and annex again.
Hamas had and has very limited resources, which is why they fight in this way. And the world was quite happy to look away at Israel illegally occupying, annexing, killing civillians when it feels like in the Westbank and at demonstrations, running torture camps and taking tens of thousands of Palestinians hostage through “administrative detention” without any charge, without any due process, without even access to lawyers.
Gaza population was steadily increasing for all these years. This doesn’t bode well with the “prison” sentiment in my opinion. They had institutions. They could teach their own population. Their actions could be more logical. Instead it seems they’ve been spreading terrorist propaganda (literally pushing their children to become merciless terrorists) and spending resources on building offensive tech instead of defenses. I can not justify actions of Israel (though I can understand why the ground operation was started) but there is no way I can agree that actions of hamas had any logical ground.
No it’s not. More than one side can be monstrous in a conflict. “Yeah well but they did X so it’s okay that we did Y” is bible level reasoning aka no reasoning and pretty much what is causing the whole thing anyway.
I agree, which is why I don’t support any monstrous regimes 🤷
You don’t have to pick a side, it’s a moral trap and being super loud about having an opinion doesn’t stop the bloodshed or justify any of it.
The moral trap: Do I be anti-genocide or not?
I didn’t mean to say anything that Israel did was okay. But a lot of it is understandable, e.g. the ground operation was very well expected by everyone when it became clear the hostages are not getting released. No matter how you look at it, Gaza was not ready.
And if we consider the October attack itself, only some of it is understandable (“they couldn’t bear with oppression any longer” sentiment, which itself is problematic at best).