Posted this in another thread, gonna post it here, too.
“Looking another human being in the eye, making an independent decision to kill him, and watching as he dies due to your action combine to form one of the most basic, important, primal, and potentially traumatic occurrences of war.”
It’s an unpopular take, but I recommend everyone read the book “On Killing” by Dave Grossman. It’s obvious that what Israel is doing is very much a genocide, but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
Sure, but couldn’t the same be said for many of the literal guards at Auschwitz? A lot of those people were just kids who were drafted and were simply following orders. Even many of those who were there willingly only did such things after being subject to years of ruthless Nazi propaganda.
At some point, regardless of what circumstances led you to that moment, you become responsible for your own actions. There is no set of circumstances that can make murdering innocent civilians justified. And if you do that anyway, you bear full moral culpability, regardless of what may have happened in your life before that point.
We literally hashed this out during the Nuremberg trials. It doesn’t matter what propaganda you were subject to. It doesn’t matter how you were raised. It doesn’t matter if you were “just following orders.” It doesn’t even matter if you yourself would face execution for refusing to kill innocent civilians. It is never OK to kill innocent civilians, to perform genocide, or commit ethnic cleansing. If you do that, you deserve to hang for it. Full stop. No excuses.
The Nuremberg Trials are a great example of how you don’t hang if you provide enough value to the military-industrial complex, and a terrible example of full stop no excuses. Seems ill suited to be a foundation for a moral philosophy.
It absolutely could, and should. I’m not saying that the crimes should be forgiven, but it is not a purely black and white area. It is very grey. To ignore the fact that they were ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, just because it’s uncomfortable to think about, would be a disservice towards efforts to prevent things like this in the future. People are complex.
They have a choice. They could either kill innocent people or sit in a jail cell. Picking the first one makes you a sociopath.
I guarantee he would face a lot less trauma in jail, especially since he is a trained soldier.
Stop making excuses, “complexity” doesn’t justify genocide. Do you also think that our soldiers who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis are just victims? Do you think the surviving family members would agree with that sentiment? That their families murderer is a victim?
It’s all the same shit. They are copying us creating more terrorists for the future wars
I guarantee he would face a lot less trauma in jail
glances at the state of Israeli prisons, complete with guards who have the designated job of raping prisoners
Maybe not a lot less.
They are copying us creating more terrorists for the future wars
Given the degree to which the NATO states consult with IDF security officials when training their own police and military, it might be them passing their brutal and fascist policies onto us.
It’s not a justification for genocide, it’s a call for empathy. Give what I wrote another read with that in mind.
As for your questions… I think our soldiers are victims. I was there, so I think I’ve got at least a somewhat informed perspective on things. It’s not something you can prepare for. In my experience, forgiveness and understanding come with time, but it will never be the majority.
Empathy isn’t just about feeling sad for other people. It is about relating to them emotionally. In this case, we’re dealing with people who are professional physical, psychological, and sexual abusers. Empathizing them should mean recognizing these sociopathic traits and recoiling in horror.
If you’re feeling pity for a chronic abuser, you’re not feeling empathy. You’re being exploited. The first response to dealing with a chronic abuser is to separate yourself from them. If you’re opening yourself up to their manipulation, you’re feeding into the abuse cycle.
In my experience, forgiveness and understanding come with time
How can you even begin to talk about forgiveness as this act of abuse is still playing out before our eyes?
And if the glass house you call your home exists in the united states, then your taxes financed filling the soldiers heads with the propaganda, financed sending them out on the field, made sure they had rations and ammo, and paid to put their finger on that trigger. What’s your culpability, compadre? You know when you point your finger at someone, you’ve got three more aimed straight at yourself, right?
Oh, no. You misunderstood. I absolutely acknowledge that. It’s a pretty spicy issue in my area. It would pretty rad to choose where my taxes go, though. I’d much rather fund schools and national parks. I think that’s dragging things a bit off-topic, though.
Dave Grossman is full of shit. This is independent to the potential trauma from killing people (there’s a wide range of reactions to that experience). Dave Grossman is full of shit.
Israeli conscription is becoming as fierce and draconian as Russian conscription. A big reason why the Israeli economy is tanking stems from the mass mobilization of working age adults to do war crimes.
Humans are not made to kill other humans. And those who fight the wars of the mighty, are those who are among the ones who suffer the most.
War is really stupid. And it’s astonishing how we continue to be such a stupid species. Given how far we’ve come, one would think that we’ve finally realized how much humanity could achieve if we were working together instead of killing each other.
By the way:
It’s obvious that what Israel is doing is very much a genocide
The international court of justice has not ruled on this yet, but continues to observe and investigate whether such genocide allegations could apply.
However, I am not a fan of anyone who practises or participates in wars and so easily tolerates the deaths of innocents.
because some bureaucratic board has been bullied into being quiet about it
That’s a bold thing to claim.
They are not quiet about this.
And yes, until there is sufficient proof for the genocide allegations and/or the ICJ rules it as such, I can’t confidently say for myself that it’s genocide.
There is a tremendous amount of work invested in this case by people much more qualified than you or me.
Still, from my side this is in no way a justification for the cruel deaths of so many innocents. Civilian casualties are in no way tolerable for me.
It does if there is a pattern of killing children and those who respond to medical emergencies. We all know they target the ambulances. Seems there’s a terrorist behind every kid, uninhabited graveyard, and hospital. History will not be kind.
We don’t need a pack of overpaid bureucrats with fancy titles to tell us whether a genocide is occuring or not. It’s a fucking genocide. Plain and simple.
Posted this in another thread, gonna post it here, too.
“Looking another human being in the eye, making an independent decision to kill him, and watching as he dies due to your action combine to form one of the most basic, important, primal, and potentially traumatic occurrences of war.”
It’s an unpopular take, but I recommend everyone read the book “On Killing” by Dave Grossman. It’s obvious that what Israel is doing is very much a genocide, but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
Sure, but couldn’t the same be said for many of the literal guards at Auschwitz? A lot of those people were just kids who were drafted and were simply following orders. Even many of those who were there willingly only did such things after being subject to years of ruthless Nazi propaganda.
At some point, regardless of what circumstances led you to that moment, you become responsible for your own actions. There is no set of circumstances that can make murdering innocent civilians justified. And if you do that anyway, you bear full moral culpability, regardless of what may have happened in your life before that point.
We literally hashed this out during the Nuremberg trials. It doesn’t matter what propaganda you were subject to. It doesn’t matter how you were raised. It doesn’t matter if you were “just following orders.” It doesn’t even matter if you yourself would face execution for refusing to kill innocent civilians. It is never OK to kill innocent civilians, to perform genocide, or commit ethnic cleansing. If you do that, you deserve to hang for it. Full stop. No excuses.
The Nuremberg Trials are a great example of how you don’t hang if you provide enough value to the military-industrial complex, and a terrible example of full stop no excuses. Seems ill suited to be a foundation for a moral philosophy.
It absolutely could, and should. I’m not saying that the crimes should be forgiven, but it is not a purely black and white area. It is very grey. To ignore the fact that they were ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, just because it’s uncomfortable to think about, would be a disservice towards efforts to prevent things like this in the future. People are complex.
They have a choice. They could either kill innocent people or sit in a jail cell. Picking the first one makes you a sociopath.
I guarantee he would face a lot less trauma in jail, especially since he is a trained soldier.
Stop making excuses, “complexity” doesn’t justify genocide. Do you also think that our soldiers who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis are just victims? Do you think the surviving family members would agree with that sentiment? That their families murderer is a victim?
It’s all the same shit. They are copying us creating more terrorists for the future wars
glances at the state of Israeli prisons, complete with guards who have the designated job of raping prisoners
Maybe not a lot less.
Given the degree to which the NATO states consult with IDF security officials when training their own police and military, it might be them passing their brutal and fascist policies onto us.
Would you rather be raped or slaughter children?
I’d rather neither. But I accomplish that by not being an Israeli Settler forced to choose.
It’s not a justification for genocide, it’s a call for empathy. Give what I wrote another read with that in mind.
As for your questions… I think our soldiers are victims. I was there, so I think I’ve got at least a somewhat informed perspective on things. It’s not something you can prepare for. In my experience, forgiveness and understanding come with time, but it will never be the majority.
Empathy isn’t just about feeling sad for other people. It is about relating to them emotionally. In this case, we’re dealing with people who are professional physical, psychological, and sexual abusers. Empathizing them should mean recognizing these sociopathic traits and recoiling in horror.
If you’re feeling pity for a chronic abuser, you’re not feeling empathy. You’re being exploited. The first response to dealing with a chronic abuser is to separate yourself from them. If you’re opening yourself up to their manipulation, you’re feeding into the abuse cycle.
How can you even begin to talk about forgiveness as this act of abuse is still playing out before our eyes?
And if the glass house you call your home exists in the united states, then your taxes financed filling the soldiers heads with the propaganda, financed sending them out on the field, made sure they had rations and ammo, and paid to put their finger on that trigger. What’s your culpability, compadre? You know when you point your finger at someone, you’ve got three more aimed straight at yourself, right?
Oh, no. You misunderstood. I absolutely acknowledge that. It’s a pretty spicy issue in my area. It would pretty rad to choose where my taxes go, though. I’d much rather fund schools and national parks. I think that’s dragging things a bit off-topic, though.
Dave Grossman is full of shit. This is independent to the potential trauma from killing people (there’s a wide range of reactions to that experience). Dave Grossman is full of shit.
What a fitting name. Because he is quite gross
Settlers enlisted in an occupying force that seeks to claim more territory over the bodies of the native occupants are not victims.
They have mandatory service, though I’m sure very few people serving their mandatory term are a part of the invading force.
Israeli conscription is becoming as fierce and draconian as Russian conscription. A big reason why the Israeli economy is tanking stems from the mass mobilization of working age adults to do war crimes.
Caramel Marks, I mean Karl Marx, would probably agree with you.
Imperial war.
Humans are not made to kill other humans. And those who fight the wars of the mighty, are those who are among the ones who suffer the most.
War is really stupid. And it’s astonishing how we continue to be such a stupid species. Given how far we’ve come, one would think that we’ve finally realized how much humanity could achieve if we were working together instead of killing each other.
By the way:
The international court of justice has not ruled on this yet, but continues to observe and investigate whether such genocide allegations could apply.
However, I am not a fan of anyone who practises or participates in wars and so easily tolerates the deaths of innocents.
Lmao are you really trying to act like it’s not a genocide because some bureaucratic board has been bullied into being quiet about it?
That’s a bold thing to claim.
They are not quiet about this.
And yes, until there is sufficient proof for the genocide allegations and/or the ICJ rules it as such, I can’t confidently say for myself that it’s genocide.
There is a tremendous amount of work invested in this case by people much more qualified than you or me.
Still, from my side this is in no way a justification for the cruel deaths of so many innocents. Civilian casualties are in no way tolerable for me.
There’s literally video of a child getting cut down, then when help comes for the child they blow them up with a bomb. That’s some psychopath shit.
That’s indeed unbelievably cruel.
This does not constitute a genocide though.
It does if there is a pattern of killing children and those who respond to medical emergencies. We all know they target the ambulances. Seems there’s a terrorist behind every kid, uninhabited graveyard, and hospital. History will not be kind.
We don’t need a pack of overpaid bureucrats with fancy titles to tell us whether a genocide is occuring or not. It’s a fucking genocide. Plain and simple.