People get to be (more or less seriously) humanoid animals, fantasy creatures and races, and if you can’t get along with that, you can expect to get thrown out of a space that explicitly welcome anyone regardless of their identity or pronouns.
If I were a transgender person, I would not go within ten miles of a community that was applying the same rules to fantasy creature role playing as it was to my gender pronouns. The normie world doesn’t need to have any assistance in seeing the whole thing as made up, equivalent to wanting to be called a dolphin or a mermaid, and confusing those two very, very different concepts, or treating them as deserving of precisely the same treatment and rules, sounds very wrong to me.
100%. It is wrong to elevate roleplay (which, let’s be clear, is exactly what this is) to the same level of importance as someone’s actual gender identity.
It’s a false equivalence and does a huge disservice to trans people who are fighting for their right to even exist.
Don’t speak for trans people. Regardless of whether drag thinks drag’s an actual dragon or if it’s roleplay or just a fun neopronoun, respect people’s identities. I don’t have to get it. If someone says “I’d like to be referred to as fae,” then I’m calling fae exactly what fae wants. I have a friend that uses “love/love” as neopronouns. I don’t get it, and yes it can be confusing, but that isn’t roleplay or hurting anyone’s right to exist. This is exactly the type of infighting that conservatives try to start, and you’re either falling for it or white knighting for people that don’t need it.
Gender is made up and entirely a social construct, and some people choose to make their own rules because the rules don’t actually exist. For some reason that really pisses people off that otherwise think they’re being allies.
Yeah, this is basically like trying to reclaim the “I sexually identify as an attack helicopter” meme. I get the admins’ logic and see what they’re going for, but IMO the cost in credibility is too great.
Regardless of what the “normie world” thinks, gender is a social construct and people can do whatever they want. That doesn’t make them a troll and doesn’t invalidate them. We can’t just throw people out for being “too different” for fear of what the “normies” think. We all were too different not that long ago. We live for who we are, not for the approval of anyone else.
Blahaj Community: If you’re not trans, you don’t get a say in how trans spaces are run.
You: If I were a transgender person, here’s how I think I’d feel!
But mate, you’re not trans! How great, your opinion literally doesn’t matter a half fucking iota. It’s not needed or even wanted. Cishets run the world, so fuck right off out of trans spaces with your “but if I were trans” opinions. You’re not, no one cares.
I notice that literally 0 of the several people who are lecturing me on how I don’t have a right to make this statement have engaged with the trans person who said they feel 100% the same way.
I suspect the reason is that you have no interest in giving the same level of respect you’re demanding, and mostly you want to give the lecture, and receiving one would be unacceptable, even from someone who has the same badge of “I’m allowed to give a lecture” that you’re trying to cash in.
Honestly? I think you should talk to that person. They might be able to tell you things like “Just because you’re trans doesn’t mean you automatically speak for all trans people,” or “Just because you’re trans doesn’t mean you automatically are right about everything, yes, even when trans issues are involved.” I can’t say that, because I have no authority to, it’s just offensive. With them, you could have a real interaction, and you, or they, might be able to learn something. As you rightly pointed out, the usefulness of what I have to say on it is going to be limited.
I realized a while ago that me and blahaj weren’t going to vibe, and I left them alone to do their thing and me mine. This, however, is a space that I like to call home, to some extent, talking about issues that are important to me. I’m a little bit reluctant for my opinions to get kicked out of it completely because they’ve intersected with your issues. Hopefully that seems fair.
Again: If you’re trying to have this interaction for an exchange of views between qualified people, I’m not the person to talk with. If you’re just into the idea of giving a lecture to an unqualified person, but not in that other thing, which to me seems like it would be a lot more useful… why?
I’m not speaking for you. I’m speaking for me, and telling you how I see it. If you think my opinion on this may not hold much weight, which seems fair, you can scroll down a little and have a conversation with a trans person who sees it 100% the same way I do.
Whoever decided it would be fun to stir the pot to get the blahaj people arguing with the rest of Lemmy is sure as hell getting their money’s worth. That’s about all I want to add, at this point.
I’m not in that instance, but the focus on drag’s identity and calling it absurd fantasy roleplay is just malicious. No wonder trans people need spaces with rules like that with people like y’all around.
I’m trans and while I appreciate your attempt to empathize, I would like to ask you to never question a trans person’s pronouns again. When cis people start drawing lines about what’s “acceptably trans”, I get extremely uncomfortable. I don’t care how weird or crazy it seems, it’s not your place to do so.
I have had some very bad experiences with cis people trying to tell me that I’m not trans enough for them; that is why I get pissed off when it comes to cis people sticking their noses where it doesn’t belong. Hell, America is going turbo-mode on anti-trans rhetoric because a bunch of dumbass cis people think they know better than trans people.
I don’t care how strange drag’s pronouns are; it isn’t your place to decide whether or not drag is valid (drag is literally just asking you to refer to drag by a shortened version of drag’s name instead of he/she/they/xe/whatever, it’s not that hard).
Thanks for “cisplaining” what a trans person would feel.
As a trans person, I would rather have a space where everyone’s identities aren’t questioned, than some kind of (potentially hidden) requirement to be in place that your identity has to be “real” in some way. If “normies” have trouble respecting trans people just because we also happen to respect other identities in our spaces, then shrug. If fellow trans people are uncomfortable with that, they don’t have to be part of this space, either.
In the end, you’re once again making this a much bigger deal than it has to be. Someone broke the explicitly written out rules and got bonked for it. And if you think this person is a troll, they sure are a good one with how much they’re being fed with all these posts.
Makes me wonder if the “I got banned” posts are just a continuation of the trolling to make as much drama as possible.
Move on. There’s trans people dying out there. This isn’t worth fighting over.
I care about issues of censorship and trolling, and the social contract on the network, that’s the only reason I am in this discussion. I think the whole “call me drag” thing is not worth that much attention, yes, but banning a bunch of people for saying dragons aren’t real sort of drew my attention to it.
I don’t know. It is your instance. You can do what you like with it, but keep in mind that not everyone who is obeying the rules to the letter is your friend.
not everyone who is obeying the rules to the letter is your friend
100%, but everyone who disobeys this rule has taken it on themselves to decide which identities are valid and which aren’t, and that’s a dangerous precedent
It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule. That’s just the moderators / admins doing their job. And there’s a subtext to saying “dragons aren’t real”, which is “I don’t think I need to respect this person’s identity or pronouns”. That’s why it’s gatekeeping. You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule.
Sure it is.
By my reading of the db0 terms of service, you’ve broken them here, because you are advocating for systems of authoritarian control and against the open discussion of ideas. Would you support banning your user from db0 so we can’t have this conversation? Is that censorship?
I don’t think you should get banned, of course. Because you’re clearly talking in good faith, and I like being able to talk with people, even when I disagree with them. I just would have a wish that the network as a whole generally works like that.
You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid
But the blahaj admins do! If I showed up and said my pronouns were “thatsaspicymeatball,” they would decide that wasn’t valid. They would not ban people for not using that as my pronouns, or for discussing the issue. They’ve just decided to make their judgement call in one particular place instead of another. That’s fine, of course, but then mechanically enforcing that everyone has to act in exact accordance with where they drew the line, even though there’s room for reasonable disagreement, is what will get people talking about you on PTB.
The reality of human life is that people look at things differently sometimes. I get wanting to protect your space against ignorance or people who will make someone feel unwelcome. But this is taking it to an extreme, forcing everyone to look at things in exactly the same chosen way, which is tearing down the thing you’re trying to accomplish, I think.
Does db0 have a ToS? I can see an “Anarchist Code of Conduct”, which seems to only support my points. In addition, db0 Lemmy has its own rules that could be seen as censorship just the same. Pointing out either instance’s rules existing presumably doesn’t imply that I’m advocating for authoritarian control or against discussion of ideas.
If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun. drag/drag, other than being exotic, works fine in place of a pronoun. (Though one could argue it is so unique it’s more akin to a nickname, but that’s another discussion to be had.) If you instead said your pronouns were that/that, and being serious about it, it would likely be accepted. Sure, you could argue it’s a line being drawn elsewhere, but it’s not on the matter of identity.
I know numerous people that use fae/faer pronouns, some friends. Fairies aren’t real, either. Does that mean people should be allowed to make those same arguments, be allowed to openly be disrespectful and arguing against the use of those pronouns, in a space that explicitly asks you to respect them? No, of course not. Admittedly, I don’t know anyone who isn’t also okay with certain non-neopronouns being used for them as well, but if they weren’t, I personally wouldn’t think much about it and just use them.
Voluntary interaction, especially when it includes:
Inclusive language and behavior,
Welcoming attitude and approach,
Rational debate and discussion,
Genuine exchanges of ideas,
What is Unacceptable
Authoritarianism, or the spread of behavior that is designed to overturn the standards described so far
You could say that’s misleadingly trimmed. I was mainly just trying to make a point: Just because something is according to the written rules doesn’t make it right. Also, you’re currently coming into a space and violating its community standards, and no one is banning you, nor should they, I think. That is one way you can wind up talking with people even if at the outset they may not agree with you on everything.
If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun.
You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
See how that works?
My point was that they’re exercising judgement already, as you would to my requested pronouns, because of course they are. Everyone who’s doing moderation has to exercise judgement.
you’re currently coming into a space and violating its community standards
If I’m truly violating db0’s community standards, then I would like to know. And looking at the (A)CoC, I don’t think I am.
See how that works?
“My pronouns are the entire bee movie script.”
“My pronouns are they/them'); DROPTABLE Pronouns;--”
“My pronouns are an hour of silence followed by an ear-shattering scream.”
Obviously there is a limit to what is reasonable to use as a (neo)pronoun, in line with the purpose of personal pronouns, and drag/drag is very much within acceptable limits, wheras “thatsaspicymeatball/thatsaspicymeatball” is not. Our opinions might differ, and that’s okay, but you’re not making a good argument for your side.
Making a “pronoun” that is a nickname makes it not a pronoun, grammatically. Also, this person isn’t actually a dragon, and them insisting that they are turns it into something very different from a person who wants to be referred to as a different gender or intersex or however they express themselves.
You could say that those are irrelevant issues, and the issue of length is a critical one, of course. Like you said I think our opinions are just different about it.
If I’m truly violating db0’s community standards, then I would like to know. And looking at the (A)CoC, I don’t think I am.
Yes, but PugJesus truly didn’t think he was violating the community standards. He’s been explaining himself here, and getting treated like “the enemy” mostly because he’s trying to protect your community against someone he thinks is just trolling you and trying to hold you up to ridicule.
My point with this part was that there are communities that start jumping on the banhammer as soon as some reading of the community rules could define a person as the enemy, and that feels very different from the getting-banned side than it does from the banning-the-enemies side. You can probably imagine how it would feel if you got instance banned for the conversation we’ve had so far.
Alright I suppose it technically is censorship. I’m not a native English speaking person. You certainly shouldn’t be surprised about a community’s rules being enforced, though. I don’t think it would be sensible to complain about “censorship” if (as an example) one is spouting bigoted nonsense at family dinner and is getting thrown out the house as a result.
I would say this is more like being told “No prejudice” at Thanksgiving Dinner, and then being thrown out for saying that mashed potatoes were a mistake of god.
It is technically prejudiced (against mashed potatoes), but it is not the assumption most people would have upon being told “No prejudice”. Likewise, being told “Don’t discriminate against anyone’s gender identity” does not, for many, call to mind “Don’t say people can’t be dragons or that dragons aren’t real, they can be dragons if they want”.
If I were a transgender person, I would not go within ten miles of a community that was applying the same rules to fantasy creature role playing as it was to my gender pronouns. The normie world doesn’t need to have any assistance in seeing the whole thing as made up, equivalent to wanting to be called a dolphin or a mermaid, and confusing those two very, very different concepts, or treating them as deserving of precisely the same treatment and rules, sounds very wrong to me.
100%. It is wrong to elevate roleplay (which, let’s be clear, is exactly what this is) to the same level of importance as someone’s actual gender identity.
It’s a false equivalence and does a huge disservice to trans people who are fighting for their right to even exist.
Don’t speak for trans people. Regardless of whether drag thinks drag’s an actual dragon or if it’s roleplay or just a fun neopronoun, respect people’s identities. I don’t have to get it. If someone says “I’d like to be referred to as fae,” then I’m calling fae exactly what fae wants. I have a friend that uses “love/love” as neopronouns. I don’t get it, and yes it can be confusing, but that isn’t roleplay or hurting anyone’s right to exist. This is exactly the type of infighting that conservatives try to start, and you’re either falling for it or white knighting for people that don’t need it.
Gender is made up and entirely a social construct, and some people choose to make their own rules because the rules don’t actually exist. For some reason that really pisses people off that otherwise think they’re being allies.
FWIW I am trans and I 100% agree with you. Been thinking about making an account on another instance, just not sure which yet.
Yeah, this is basically like trying to reclaim the “I sexually identify as an attack helicopter” meme. I get the admins’ logic and see what they’re going for, but IMO the cost in credibility is too great.
Regardless of what the “normie world” thinks, gender is a social construct and people can do whatever they want. That doesn’t make them a troll and doesn’t invalidate them. We can’t just throw people out for being “too different” for fear of what the “normies” think. We all were too different not that long ago. We live for who we are, not for the approval of anyone else.
In this thread:
But mate, you’re not trans! How great, your opinion literally doesn’t matter a half fucking iota. It’s not needed or even wanted. Cishets run the world, so fuck right off out of trans spaces with your “but if I were trans” opinions. You’re not, no one cares.
I notice that literally 0 of the several people who are lecturing me on how I don’t have a right to make this statement have engaged with the trans person who said they feel 100% the same way.
I suspect the reason is that you have no interest in giving the same level of respect you’re demanding, and mostly you want to give the lecture, and receiving one would be unacceptable, even from someone who has the same badge of “I’m allowed to give a lecture” that you’re trying to cash in.
Honestly? I think you should talk to that person. They might be able to tell you things like “Just because you’re trans doesn’t mean you automatically speak for all trans people,” or “Just because you’re trans doesn’t mean you automatically are right about everything, yes, even when trans issues are involved.” I can’t say that, because I have no authority to, it’s just offensive. With them, you could have a real interaction, and you, or they, might be able to learn something. As you rightly pointed out, the usefulness of what I have to say on it is going to be limited.
I realized a while ago that me and blahaj weren’t going to vibe, and I left them alone to do their thing and me mine. This, however, is a space that I like to call home, to some extent, talking about issues that are important to me. I’m a little bit reluctant for my opinions to get kicked out of it completely because they’ve intersected with your issues. Hopefully that seems fair.
Again: If you’re trying to have this interaction for an exchange of views between qualified people, I’m not the person to talk with. If you’re just into the idea of giving a lecture to an unqualified person, but not in that other thing, which to me seems like it would be a lot more useful… why?
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I’m not speaking for you. I’m speaking for me, and telling you how I see it. If you think my opinion on this may not hold much weight, which seems fair, you can scroll down a little and have a conversation with a trans person who sees it 100% the same way I do.
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Whoever decided it would be fun to stir the pot to get the blahaj people arguing with the rest of Lemmy is sure as hell getting their money’s worth. That’s about all I want to add, at this point.
That person is drag, of course.
I’m not in that instance, but the focus on drag’s identity and calling it absurd fantasy roleplay is just malicious. No wonder trans people need spaces with rules like that with people like y’all around.
It’s funny how you can take any statement and make it seem like they’re attacking you so you don’t have to consider what anyone says.
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.
I’m trans and while I appreciate your attempt to empathize, I would like to ask you to never question a trans person’s pronouns again. When cis people start drawing lines about what’s “acceptably trans”, I get extremely uncomfortable. I don’t care how weird or crazy it seems, it’s not your place to do so.
I have had some very bad experiences with cis people trying to tell me that I’m not trans enough for them; that is why I get pissed off when it comes to cis people sticking their noses where it doesn’t belong. Hell, America is going turbo-mode on anti-trans rhetoric because a bunch of dumbass cis people think they know better than trans people.
I don’t care how strange drag’s pronouns are; it isn’t your place to decide whether or not drag is valid (drag is literally just asking you to refer to drag by a shortened version of drag’s name instead of he/she/they/xe/whatever, it’s not that hard).
Thanks for “cisplaining” what a trans person would feel.
As a trans person, I would rather have a space where everyone’s identities aren’t questioned, than some kind of (potentially hidden) requirement to be in place that your identity has to be “real” in some way. If “normies” have trouble respecting trans people just because we also happen to respect other identities in our spaces, then shrug. If fellow trans people are uncomfortable with that, they don’t have to be part of this space, either.
In the end, you’re once again making this a much bigger deal than it has to be. Someone broke the explicitly written out rules and got bonked for it. And if you think this person is a troll, they sure are a good one with how much they’re being fed with all these posts.
Makes me wonder if the “I got banned” posts are just a continuation of the trolling to make as much drama as possible.
Move on. There’s trans people dying out there. This isn’t worth fighting over.
I care about issues of censorship and trolling, and the social contract on the network, that’s the only reason I am in this discussion. I think the whole “call me drag” thing is not worth that much attention, yes, but banning a bunch of people for saying dragons aren’t real sort of drew my attention to it.
I don’t know. It is your instance. You can do what you like with it, but keep in mind that not everyone who is obeying the rules to the letter is your friend.
100%, but everyone who disobeys this rule has taken it on themselves to decide which identities are valid and which aren’t, and that’s a dangerous precedent
It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule. That’s just the moderators / admins doing their job. And there’s a subtext to saying “dragons aren’t real”, which is “I don’t think I need to respect this person’s identity or pronouns”. That’s why it’s gatekeeping. You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
Sure it is.
By my reading of the db0 terms of service, you’ve broken them here, because you are advocating for systems of authoritarian control and against the open discussion of ideas. Would you support banning your user from db0 so we can’t have this conversation? Is that censorship?
I don’t think you should get banned, of course. Because you’re clearly talking in good faith, and I like being able to talk with people, even when I disagree with them. I just would have a wish that the network as a whole generally works like that.
But the blahaj admins do! If I showed up and said my pronouns were “thatsaspicymeatball,” they would decide that wasn’t valid. They would not ban people for not using that as my pronouns, or for discussing the issue. They’ve just decided to make their judgement call in one particular place instead of another. That’s fine, of course, but then mechanically enforcing that everyone has to act in exact accordance with where they drew the line, even though there’s room for reasonable disagreement, is what will get people talking about you on PTB.
The reality of human life is that people look at things differently sometimes. I get wanting to protect your space against ignorance or people who will make someone feel unwelcome. But this is taking it to an extreme, forcing everyone to look at things in exactly the same chosen way, which is tearing down the thing you’re trying to accomplish, I think.
Does db0 have a ToS? I can see an “Anarchist Code of Conduct”, which seems to only support my points. In addition, db0 Lemmy has its own rules that could be seen as censorship just the same. Pointing out either instance’s rules existing presumably doesn’t imply that I’m advocating for authoritarian control or against discussion of ideas.
If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun. drag/drag, other than being exotic, works fine in place of a pronoun. (Though one could argue it is so unique it’s more akin to a nickname, but that’s another discussion to be had.) If you instead said your pronouns were that/that, and being serious about it, it would likely be accepted. Sure, you could argue it’s a line being drawn elsewhere, but it’s not on the matter of identity.
I know numerous people that use fae/faer pronouns, some friends. Fairies aren’t real, either. Does that mean people should be allowed to make those same arguments, be allowed to openly be disrespectful and arguing against the use of those pronouns, in a space that explicitly asks you to respect them? No, of course not. Admittedly, I don’t know anyone who isn’t also okay with certain non-neopronouns being used for them as well, but if they weren’t, I personally wouldn’t think much about it and just use them.
In the code of conduct is:
You could say that’s misleadingly trimmed. I was mainly just trying to make a point: Just because something is according to the written rules doesn’t make it right. Also, you’re currently coming into a space and violating its community standards, and no one is banning you, nor should they, I think. That is one way you can wind up talking with people even if at the outset they may not agree with you on everything.
You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
See how that works?
My point was that they’re exercising judgement already, as you would to my requested pronouns, because of course they are. Everyone who’s doing moderation has to exercise judgement.
If I’m truly violating db0’s community standards, then I would like to know. And looking at the (A)CoC, I don’t think I am.
“My pronouns are the entire bee movie script.”
“My pronouns are
they/them'); DROP TABLE Pronouns;--”“My pronouns are an hour of silence followed by an ear-shattering scream.”
Obviously there is a limit to what is reasonable to use as a (neo)pronoun, in line with the purpose of personal pronouns, and drag/drag is very much within acceptable limits, wheras “thatsaspicymeatball/thatsaspicymeatball” is not. Our opinions might differ, and that’s okay, but you’re not making a good argument for your side.
Making a “pronoun” that is a nickname makes it not a pronoun, grammatically. Also, this person isn’t actually a dragon, and them insisting that they are turns it into something very different from a person who wants to be referred to as a different gender or intersex or however they express themselves.
You could say that those are irrelevant issues, and the issue of length is a critical one, of course. Like you said I think our opinions are just different about it.
Yes, but PugJesus truly didn’t think he was violating the community standards. He’s been explaining himself here, and getting treated like “the enemy” mostly because he’s trying to protect your community against someone he thinks is just trolling you and trying to hold you up to ridicule.
My point with this part was that there are communities that start jumping on the banhammer as soon as some reading of the community rules could define a person as the enemy, and that feels very different from the getting-banned side than it does from the banning-the-enemies side. You can probably imagine how it would feel if you got instance banned for the conversation we’ve had so far.
…
Alright I suppose it technically is censorship. I’m not a native English speaking person. You certainly shouldn’t be surprised about a community’s rules being enforced, though. I don’t think it would be sensible to complain about “censorship” if (as an example) one is spouting bigoted nonsense at family dinner and is getting thrown out the house as a result.
I would say this is more like being told “No prejudice” at Thanksgiving Dinner, and then being thrown out for saying that mashed potatoes were a mistake of god.
It is technically prejudiced (against mashed potatoes), but it is not the assumption most people would have upon being told “No prejudice”. Likewise, being told “Don’t discriminate against anyone’s gender identity” does not, for many, call to mind “Don’t say people can’t be dragons or that dragons aren’t real, they can be dragons if they want”.