But that’s not women’s fault, that’s patriarchys fault for instilling into men on a deep cultural level that they need to make money to “provide” and then capitalism exploiting us workers so hard that that “providing” goal is impossible for a lot of us.
A lot of men deal with that insecurity by entering hustle grindset mindsets. Others get taken advantage of by right wing groups and say it’s women’s expectations at fault, not understanding that feminism also combats that expectation.
The point being, patriarchy binds us all, men and women with its expectations, and capitalism has made meeting those expectations impossible for a lot of people resulting in a double wombo combo of fucking men over.
I think this ignores part of the problem some younger guys have expressed which is their perspective partner still expect the guy to earn more and that’s increasingly not the case.
A lot of men have no idea what feminism entails so they aren’t aware that it calls not just for the adjustment in expectations and attitudes for men but for women as well. Clarifying what feminism is could fix a bunch of minor issues.
True. The intersection between patriarchy and capitalism creates these expectations and equally makes them unachievable for most people.
Feminism as an ideology attempts to tackle and deconstruct both of these, freeing us from those unachievable expectations.
I’ve been getting a lot of use outta this quote today from bell hooks.
“It is obvious that many women have appropriated feminism to serve their own ends, especially those white women who have been at the forefront of the movement; but rather than resigning myself to this appropriation I choose to re-appropriate the term “feminism,” to focus on the fact that to be “feminist” in any authentic sense of the term is to want for all people, female and male, liberation from sexist role patterns, domination, and oppression”
My mom has been very active in feminism since the late 1970/early 1980s and I recall as a kid she explained feminism as the movement to create fundamental equality for everyone as you can’t make men and women equal without making everyone equal.
I think at this point it’s time to take a step back and say “not all women”.
The reaction to “drizzle drizzle” has been particularly telling in this regard: You can scroll through miles of comments of feminists1 trying to analyse the thing as “a movement”, not really knowing what to make of it, where to put it, you can scroll through just as much mileage of “these men are gay” tiktoks from, well, the kind of women drizzle drizzle is taking the piss out of. And you’ll also see reactions from women totally getting it: The ones who can’t help but laugh along. Which is the only way to take this seriously.
The enforcement of patriarchy, or consumerism, whatever you want to call it and however you want to slice it, is not a particularly gendered thing. Just because you belong to an identifiable group doesn’t mean that your actions or opinions are beneficial to that group. That would presume people to not be idiots which is never a safe assumption to make, present company and myself included.
1 “feminist” as in “contains the word feminist in the subreddit name” and suchlike. Not intended to be a deep analysis of the *isms.
I mean, sure. In this context in particularly though what I’m disappointed by is the cluelessness of self-identified feminists: As you yourself said in your other comment the “sprinkle sprinkle” sphere isn’t exactly feminist, going exactly against the adjustments of expectations feminism wants to make among women, then comes along drizzle drizzle to make fun of sprinkle sprinkle, very much in line with feminist thought (though with male humour and camaraderie) and they just don’t get it. Complete woosh.
…or, <conspiracy_mode=on>, they do get it but play clueless to not have it publicly associated with feminism so that it can be more effective in influencing culture. 1d chess, 4d chess, who can tell the difference.
Nope that was me myself. It’s very much “men should pick up the bill or get lost” type stuff though so I connected it with your “expect to earn more” thing.
that’s patriarchys fault for instilling into men on a deep cultural level that they need to make money to “provide”
Maybe that’s the case because it’s been the case since bartering started about 100,000 years ago… You’d rather your daughter marry a guy with a lot of stuff, rather than the guy with little stuff. If you think you can “just” change such an ancient system by introducing Feminism, then oh boy, are we even more fucked than I thought…
The only real issue is that Capitalism in the US has gone hogwild and concentrated most wealth down to 3 people. Europe is somewhat doing fine in that regard. Don’t we have superrich people? Yeah, sure, but our bottom line is a LOT healthier. Not as healthy as I wish it to be, but fine-ish for now.
You dont know what feminism is nor what it says about men and capitalism (a lot. Like a fuck ton. Like the entirety of feminist thought is based on male and female liberation and how capitalism enforces patriarchy)
But you havent read any feminist theory. You have a vague idea of what feminism is that you have taken in via osmosis and cultural rhetoric. I can tell you for certain that you do not know what feminism means.
That makes talking about it kinda hard. Not only am I having to explain a complex ideology to you and what it has to say about other complex ideologies but I am having to work through your false consciousness created by those oppressive ideologies. That creates a difference in language that makes talking directly about these topics hard because you think you know what the words I’m saying mean. You have a concept of them in your head. But you are wrong. It’s really hard to get past that.
It’s not their fault insomuch as they can’t think for themselves, I’ll agree with you there.
But the agreement stops when you blame the patriarchy over consumerism. No, this generation has been convinced to sell itself out to the lowest bidder. Average women are proud consumers that want to live like instagram models. Any kind of modesty is shunned in their social circles. It’s drowned out by “look at this new thing I bought! Please praise me for spending money!”
The sex speaks for itself. Men have a ridiculously easy time getting laid if they have money, even if they’re pieces of shit in every other way.
your post is concerning. What most people respond to is confidence and being fun/interesting. When I have previously had trouble getting dates the thing that needed fixing was my attitude NOT my finances.
I should also note. The concept you are referring to as “they can’t think for themselves” is called False Consciousness. The idea that oppressive systems like patriarchy and capitalism create this sense that you are acting with complete free will but you actually are following a set of expectations and thoughts and even language that feedback loops on itself in a never ending reinforcement loop.
It’s like, your right at the core of what your saying. There is truth there. But you use such anti women language rather than targeting the systems, ideologies and incentives that make both men and women this way.
but you actually are following a set of expectations and thoughts and even language that feedback loops on itself in a never ending reinforcement loop.
Isn’t that culture in general? Not saying it doesn’t apply to “the patriarchy”, but this definition is a bit too wide, IMO.
Yeah it does! False consciousness is a very wide concept. There are particular oppressive ideologies that are deeply embedded in our culture that create these false consciousness. Capitalism and Patriarchy are just some of them. They have their own quirks, and then on top of that they interact with each other to create a sort of super culture that underlines everything we think, know and do. It is infact a very very wide definition.
The point is that you take that wide idea and then you narrow it down. You pick out specific ideologies that exist in that super culture, you deconstruct them. Find the contradictions within that oppressive ideology. You find the exact ideas, expectations and thoughts that stem from that ideology. You find the ways that other oppressive ideologies interact in specific ways with the one your deconstructing.
It’s a very hard thing to do. But it’s kinda like alcoholic rehab . First step is admitting that it is there. That we are all affected by these cultural forces and imbedded oppressive ideologies and doing your best to rip them apart and understand their effects on you personally.
It’s very neat. I’m geeking out just talking about it. This fundamentally changed who I am as a person. I used to be a racist, homophobic, misogynist piece of shit but I always had this need to understand the world and myself. Thankfully that need and some very patient and loving friends slowly guided me out of that mind prison.
I hope I explained all of this well in a way that is understandable. I am genuinely just trying to explain this pretty complicated idea over text on a conversational way. Tone and such may come off as whack. Just take it all as I intended it. Genuine and with love.
It’s a spectrum, for sure. I wouldn’t be who I am without the influence of others.
That said, women are way more likely to go along with what the crowd (their peers) is doing than I am. If they disagree with the crowd, they are way less likely to put those disagreements into action than I am.
They cannot think for themselves and it’s encouraged by those who refuse to acknowledge it. It’s not a problem unique to women, but they suffer from it more than men because women have been conditioned to operate as one unit.
I can tell you’re upset because I’m saying things you don’t like. It’s okay, I see it all the time and don’t expect more from you people on these forums.
Brother, you are right now repeating the most common, basic and wrong male anti feminist talking points as you talk about how women are so baby brained that they can’t think.
It ain’t hyperbole. It’s academic theory. You are so caught up in not using the word you don’t like. I am telling you that you don’t know what that word means. I explain what it means. You then repeat “no” and then say the same thing but in a misogynist lens.
There’s even non misogynist ways to explain the “operating as one unit” borg brain you are talking about. It’s just the women’s side of patriarchy. That’s a built in function of patriarchy. You have a hard time seeing that because you are not a woman and have a flawed concept of the word patriarchy. Do you get what I’m saying?
as you talk about how women are so baby brained that they can’t think.
Saying it’s an ‘anti-feminist’ talking point holds no water when we’re describing reality. You’re literally supporting my argument by saying that women can’t rise above the expectations the patriarchy has put on them. They can’t think for themselves.
You’re also supporting my notion that you refuse to acknowledge greed and consumerism as being the root cause of these issues because you’re so distracted and invested in blaming “the patriarchy.”
It’s a lot easier for women to blame “the patriarchy,” because if they addressed their own greed then they would have to give something up. If all the blame is put on “the patriarchy,” then women can continue to consume just as they always have and delude themselves into thinking they’re not part of the problem.
It’s just the women’s side of patriarchy.
Now this is an interesting point to bring up, although it does reinforce my argument. Men are more likely to value autonomy, women are more likely to value homogeny. It’s why I said that women have a harder time thinking for themselves than men and why they’ve been conditioned to operate as one unit.
None of this is up for debate and you haven’t disproved any of my points. Even if these ideas aren’t acceptable in our social circles, it doesn’t mean they don’t describe reality.
You come across as if you never considered that your persoective is just that amd isn’t an unbiased reflection of reality.
When people talk about the patriarchy they are talking about the inherent sexism within society that creates all of the issues you are complaining about.
Look. We are talking in circles. So let me leave you off with a quote from one of the most famous feminist writers, Bell Hooks.
It is obvious that many women have appropriated feminism to serve their own ends, especially those white women who have been at the forefront of the movement; but rather than resigning myself to this appropriation I choose to re-appropriate the term ‘feminism’, to focus on the fact that to be ‘feminist’ in any authentic sense of the term is to want for all people, female and male, liberation from sexist role patterns, domination, and oppression.
– Ain’t I A Woman: Black Women and Feminism, 1981
Like I said. You are stuck in a mind loop called a false consciousness. I was unable to break you out of it this conversation. I hope that this conversation is a seed in your brain that someday, someone else more able to speak your language waters and sprouts into understanding.
Please understand. You are not talking about “women”. You are talking about patriarchy. You are complaining about patriarchy. You are complaining about women who are also stuck in the same patriarchy false consciousness as you are, but from the other side. Your talk about women and greed is a complex intersection of patriarchy and capitalism. They effect each other and support each other.
I genuinely hope you take that extra step towards understanding and abandon your misogynist lens. It is doing more harm to you than you know.
to focus on the fact that to be ‘feminist’ in any authentic sense of the term is to want for all people, female and male, liberation from sexist role patterns, domination, and oppression.
That’s the dumbed definition of a word I’ve seen in quite a while. How about:
“advocating women’s rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.”
They may do it by setting fire to a Theatre just to try to kill a single person, like a terrorist group, but at least this definition fits.
The whole “Feminism is for both sexes” has always been bullshit. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
You are still just complaining about the intersection of patriarchy and capitalism. What you are saying is feminist theory. We are still in agreement here, though I disagree with the way you word it.
For example. You say that the average women wants to live like Instagram models. You are right, but that is due to patriarchy creating the cultural expectations that men are unable to meet in the modern world due to capitalisms squeeze. It is women simply trying to meet their side of the expectation.
Feminism is in part about how patriarchy binds both genders by expectations. People generally focus on the way it binds women. However it fucks men over as well. We are expected to have money, we are expected to “provide” weather in the classical sense of a family or in the modern sense of just having the money to meet consumerist whims, it doesn’t really matter which one your talking about, it’s still patriarchy.
When patriarchy is normally discussed it’s about how men are privileged and women are oppressed. And while even as a, as the incels like to say, “low value man” you do have some societal privileges, it is very often ignored that patriarchy oppresses us men as well for not meeting those expectations. In this case, having money. Which we don’t because capitalism funnels money into fewer and fewer hands, making fewer and fewer men able to achieve those expectations.
I hope I explained this well and didn’t talk in too many circles. Like I said. Wombo combo of capitalism and patriarchy that tag team to fuck over men.
You are right, but that is due to patriarchy creating the cultural expectations
This is where we disagree, and it’s not just the words that we use. Women are greedy, too. They like the nice things men buy them. They don’t care about the true cost of consumerism because they’ve been conditioned to ignore it.
It is women simply trying to meet their side of the expectation.
This is why I agree with you insomuch as women aren’t able to think for themselves. I don’t put that expectation on them. People richer than us do. Even though I’m able to rise above their influence, the average person cannot. This goes doubly-so for women because women have been encouraged for generations to function as one entity as much as possible.
That’s still not disagreeing with me though. You are agreeing fundamentally with what I am saying, but you don’t understand what the words mean. You have a false consciousness of your own that is at this moment blocking you from understanding what mean by “patriarchy”.
The only difference in what we are saying is that you don’t know the big fancy words and theory backing it up and instead replace it with anti women language that you have picked up and understood. At the core, past the language and operating on pure ideas, we are saying the same thing.
It is disagreeing, though. You’re saying that women can’t rise above the expectations put on them by “the patriarchy.” I agree that women, on average, cannot think for themselves.
It’s not the fault of the patriarchy that women like expensive things and are willing to reward males who buy them things with sex. Women themselves encourage this behavior.
Trying to absolve them of any responsibility is just contributing to the culture of treating women like children.
That’s not what I am saying. Women and men can rise above those expectations. It’s called feminism.
Wrong, you just described patriarchy. You do not know what that word means. You understand it as “men good, women bad”. You described an aspect of patriarchy as it effects both women’s expectations of men and men’s expectations of women.
Of course everyone is responsible for their own actions. However when discussing the way a group of people, especially such a wide one as half the population, you use terms that accurately describe the ideologies at work rather than the group itself. Because to do so builds stereotypes and reinforces false consciousness related to that group. In your case, you are stuck in the male patriarchal false consciousness that is clouding your ability to see that we are saying the same thing.
That’s not what I am saying. Women and men can rise above those expectations. It’s called feminism.
No, it’s not. It’s called autonomy.
“men good, women bad”
Wrong. I never said nor implied anything like this.
You described an aspect of patriarchy as it effects both women’s expectations of men and men’s expectations of women.
It’s an aspect of the patriarchy, but it stems from consumerism and greed.
you use terms that accurately describe the ideologies at work rather than the group itself.
Wrong. I’m telling you uncomfortable truths so you have to plug your ears and deny.
Because to do so builds stereotypes
No. Seeing their actions builds the stereotype. If they can’t rise above other people’s expectations, then it coincidentally reinforces the idea that they can’t think for themselves.
In your case, you are stuck in the male patriarchal false consciousness that is clouding your ability to see that we are saying the same thing.
In your case, you’re desperate to prove that “feminism is the solution and the patriarchy is the problem” when the real issue is greed and consumerism.
We can just agree to disagree here. If you’re going to be pretentious and patronizing by saying “I agree but I don’t understand the words being used,” then just re-read this comment.
Patriarchy and capitalism go hand in hand. We are still saying the same thing. You do not know what those words mean. You take it as patronizing because it would be silly for you to not know what that word means.
Except it’s not silly. It’s extremely common. That’s why there’s a whole academic theory about it. False consciousness. It’s a very hard thing to break yourself out of. It’s kinda like alcoholic rehab. The first step is admitting you are in it and beginning to deconstruct it.
Our entire society is built in reinforcing these false consciousness. It is very very difficult to break them. As I said in another thread to you. I hope this is a seed of words and ideas that hopefully someone who speaks your language better will water and sprout into understanding.
I’m sorry that this is all sounding patronizing and elitist and whatever else that makes you feel small. I genuinely do. Please take everything I have said how I intended it. With love and hope and empathy and understanding.
With attitudes like I see you displaying, I wouldn’t sleep with you either. Listen to yourself and the words you use. That’s not thinking for yourself, that’s focusing on perceived others’ faults in order to take zero responsibility for own faults.
Interesting perspective. I think we’re arguing from two different viewpoints here. Mine is that the women I’m referring to have a sense of entitlement to male servitude (the sole cause of this i proclaim to be patriarchy) while yours seems to be they don’t necessarily feel entitled, but are just “enjoying the spoils of war” so to speak.
But that’s not women’s fault, that’s patriarchys fault for instilling into men on a deep cultural level that they need to make money to “provide” and then capitalism exploiting us workers so hard that that “providing” goal is impossible for a lot of us.
A lot of men deal with that insecurity by entering hustle grindset mindsets. Others get taken advantage of by right wing groups and say it’s women’s expectations at fault, not understanding that feminism also combats that expectation.
The point being, patriarchy binds us all, men and women with its expectations, and capitalism has made meeting those expectations impossible for a lot of people resulting in a double wombo combo of fucking men over.
I think this ignores part of the problem some younger guys have expressed which is their perspective partner still expect the guy to earn more and that’s increasingly not the case.
A lot of men have no idea what feminism entails so they aren’t aware that it calls not just for the adjustment in expectations and attitudes for men but for women as well. Clarifying what feminism is could fix a bunch of minor issues.
True. The intersection between patriarchy and capitalism creates these expectations and equally makes them unachievable for most people.
Feminism as an ideology attempts to tackle and deconstruct both of these, freeing us from those unachievable expectations.
I’ve been getting a lot of use outta this quote today from bell hooks.
“It is obvious that many women have appropriated feminism to serve their own ends, especially those white women who have been at the forefront of the movement; but rather than resigning myself to this appropriation I choose to re-appropriate the term “feminism,” to focus on the fact that to be “feminist” in any authentic sense of the term is to want for all people, female and male, liberation from sexist role patterns, domination, and oppression”
My mom has been very active in feminism since the late 1970/early 1980s and I recall as a kid she explained feminism as the movement to create fundamental equality for everyone as you can’t make men and women equal without making everyone equal.
I think at this point it’s time to take a step back and say “not all women”.
The reaction to “drizzle drizzle” has been particularly telling in this regard: You can scroll through miles of comments of feminists1 trying to analyse the thing as “a movement”, not really knowing what to make of it, where to put it, you can scroll through just as much mileage of “these men are gay” tiktoks from, well, the kind of women drizzle drizzle is taking the piss out of. And you’ll also see reactions from women totally getting it: The ones who can’t help but laugh along. Which is the only way to take this seriously.
The enforcement of patriarchy, or consumerism, whatever you want to call it and however you want to slice it, is not a particularly gendered thing. Just because you belong to an identifiable group doesn’t mean that your actions or opinions are beneficial to that group. That would presume people to not be idiots which is never a safe assumption to make, present company and myself included.
1 “feminist” as in “contains the word feminist in the subreddit name” and suchlike. Not intended to be a deep analysis of the *isms.
I think it’s always important to keep in mind that in any population of people there will be regressives.
I mean, sure. In this context in particularly though what I’m disappointed by is the cluelessness of self-identified feminists: As you yourself said in your other comment the “sprinkle sprinkle” sphere isn’t exactly feminist, going exactly against the adjustments of expectations feminism wants to make among women, then comes along drizzle drizzle to make fun of sprinkle sprinkle, very much in line with feminist thought (though with male humour and camaraderie) and they just don’t get it. Complete woosh.
…or,
<conspiracy_mode=on>, they do get it but play clueless to not have it publicly associated with feminism so that it can be more effective in influencing culture. 1d chess, 4d chess, who can tell the difference.Just to be clear Im not the same poster as the person who mentioned “sprinkle sprinkle”
Nope that was me myself. It’s very much “men should pick up the bill or get lost” type stuff though so I connected it with your “expect to earn more” thing.
Now we just need a strong representative to frame this as populist rhetoric and the left will finally be able to stand on two feet
Maybe that’s the case because it’s been the case since bartering started about 100,000 years ago… You’d rather your daughter marry a guy with a lot of stuff, rather than the guy with little stuff. If you think you can “just” change such an ancient system by introducing Feminism, then oh boy, are we even more fucked than I thought…
The only real issue is that Capitalism in the US has gone hogwild and concentrated most wealth down to 3 people. Europe is somewhat doing fine in that regard. Don’t we have superrich people? Yeah, sure, but our bottom line is a LOT healthier. Not as healthy as I wish it to be, but fine-ish for now.
You dont know what feminism is nor what it says about men and capitalism (a lot. Like a fuck ton. Like the entirety of feminist thought is based on male and female liberation and how capitalism enforces patriarchy)
But you havent read any feminist theory. You have a vague idea of what feminism is that you have taken in via osmosis and cultural rhetoric. I can tell you for certain that you do not know what feminism means.
That makes talking about it kinda hard. Not only am I having to explain a complex ideology to you and what it has to say about other complex ideologies but I am having to work through your false consciousness created by those oppressive ideologies. That creates a difference in language that makes talking directly about these topics hard because you think you know what the words I’m saying mean. You have a concept of them in your head. But you are wrong. It’s really hard to get past that.
It’s not their fault insomuch as they can’t think for themselves, I’ll agree with you there.
But the agreement stops when you blame the patriarchy over consumerism. No, this generation has been convinced to sell itself out to the lowest bidder. Average women are proud consumers that want to live like instagram models. Any kind of modesty is shunned in their social circles. It’s drowned out by “look at this new thing I bought! Please praise me for spending money!”
The sex speaks for itself. Men have a ridiculously easy time getting laid if they have money, even if they’re pieces of shit in every other way.
your post is concerning. What most people respond to is confidence and being fun/interesting. When I have previously had trouble getting dates the thing that needed fixing was my attitude NOT my finances.
Keep doing whatever you can to avoid holding women accountable for anything.
That’s how we treat them like children.
Why do you think women aren’t held accountable for anything? That’s silly.
I should also note. The concept you are referring to as “they can’t think for themselves” is called False Consciousness. The idea that oppressive systems like patriarchy and capitalism create this sense that you are acting with complete free will but you actually are following a set of expectations and thoughts and even language that feedback loops on itself in a never ending reinforcement loop.
It’s like, your right at the core of what your saying. There is truth there. But you use such anti women language rather than targeting the systems, ideologies and incentives that make both men and women this way.
Isn’t that culture in general? Not saying it doesn’t apply to “the patriarchy”, but this definition is a bit too wide, IMO.
Yeah it does! False consciousness is a very wide concept. There are particular oppressive ideologies that are deeply embedded in our culture that create these false consciousness. Capitalism and Patriarchy are just some of them. They have their own quirks, and then on top of that they interact with each other to create a sort of super culture that underlines everything we think, know and do. It is infact a very very wide definition.
The point is that you take that wide idea and then you narrow it down. You pick out specific ideologies that exist in that super culture, you deconstruct them. Find the contradictions within that oppressive ideology. You find the exact ideas, expectations and thoughts that stem from that ideology. You find the ways that other oppressive ideologies interact in specific ways with the one your deconstructing.
It’s a very hard thing to do. But it’s kinda like alcoholic rehab . First step is admitting that it is there. That we are all affected by these cultural forces and imbedded oppressive ideologies and doing your best to rip them apart and understand their effects on you personally.
It’s very neat. I’m geeking out just talking about it. This fundamentally changed who I am as a person. I used to be a racist, homophobic, misogynist piece of shit but I always had this need to understand the world and myself. Thankfully that need and some very patient and loving friends slowly guided me out of that mind prison.
I hope I explained all of this well in a way that is understandable. I am genuinely just trying to explain this pretty complicated idea over text on a conversational way. Tone and such may come off as whack. Just take it all as I intended it. Genuine and with love.
Hyperbole.
It’s a spectrum, for sure. I wouldn’t be who I am without the influence of others.
That said, women are way more likely to go along with what the crowd (their peers) is doing than I am. If they disagree with the crowd, they are way less likely to put those disagreements into action than I am.
They cannot think for themselves and it’s encouraged by those who refuse to acknowledge it. It’s not a problem unique to women, but they suffer from it more than men because women have been conditioned to operate as one unit.
Have you talked to a therapist that specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy about your views here? You might be happier in the long run if you do.
I can tell you’re upset because I’m saying things you don’t like. It’s okay, I see it all the time and don’t expect more from you people on these forums.
Goodbye. Easy block.
You’re displaying really obvious signs of distress. You aren’t coming across as mentally healthy.
Brother, you are right now repeating the most common, basic and wrong male anti feminist talking points as you talk about how women are so baby brained that they can’t think.
It ain’t hyperbole. It’s academic theory. You are so caught up in not using the word you don’t like. I am telling you that you don’t know what that word means. I explain what it means. You then repeat “no” and then say the same thing but in a misogynist lens.
There’s even non misogynist ways to explain the “operating as one unit” borg brain you are talking about. It’s just the women’s side of patriarchy. That’s a built in function of patriarchy. You have a hard time seeing that because you are not a woman and have a flawed concept of the word patriarchy. Do you get what I’m saying?
Saying it’s an ‘anti-feminist’ talking point holds no water when we’re describing reality. You’re literally supporting my argument by saying that women can’t rise above the expectations the patriarchy has put on them. They can’t think for themselves.
You’re also supporting my notion that you refuse to acknowledge greed and consumerism as being the root cause of these issues because you’re so distracted and invested in blaming “the patriarchy.”
It’s a lot easier for women to blame “the patriarchy,” because if they addressed their own greed then they would have to give something up. If all the blame is put on “the patriarchy,” then women can continue to consume just as they always have and delude themselves into thinking they’re not part of the problem.
Now this is an interesting point to bring up, although it does reinforce my argument. Men are more likely to value autonomy, women are more likely to value homogeny. It’s why I said that women have a harder time thinking for themselves than men and why they’ve been conditioned to operate as one unit.
None of this is up for debate and you haven’t disproved any of my points. Even if these ideas aren’t acceptable in our social circles, it doesn’t mean they don’t describe reality.
Stop trying to look good in front of your peers.
You come across as if you never considered that your persoective is just that amd isn’t an unbiased reflection of reality.
When people talk about the patriarchy they are talking about the inherent sexism within society that creates all of the issues you are complaining about.
Don’t care how I “come across.”
It’s part of being able to think for myself.
I fully-expect people like you to react the way you are whenever you see it; that’s how bad it’s gotten.
You are displaying serious signs of narcissism here most especially equating your perspective as unbiased “reality”. That’s a bad sign.
Look. We are talking in circles. So let me leave you off with a quote from one of the most famous feminist writers, Bell Hooks.
It is obvious that many women have appropriated feminism to serve their own ends, especially those white women who have been at the forefront of the movement; but rather than resigning myself to this appropriation I choose to re-appropriate the term ‘feminism’, to focus on the fact that to be ‘feminist’ in any authentic sense of the term is to want for all people, female and male, liberation from sexist role patterns, domination, and oppression. – Ain’t I A Woman: Black Women and Feminism, 1981
Like I said. You are stuck in a mind loop called a false consciousness. I was unable to break you out of it this conversation. I hope that this conversation is a seed in your brain that someday, someone else more able to speak your language waters and sprouts into understanding.
Please understand. You are not talking about “women”. You are talking about patriarchy. You are complaining about patriarchy. You are complaining about women who are also stuck in the same patriarchy false consciousness as you are, but from the other side. Your talk about women and greed is a complex intersection of patriarchy and capitalism. They effect each other and support each other.
I genuinely hope you take that extra step towards understanding and abandon your misogynist lens. It is doing more harm to you than you know.
They need cognitive behavioral therapy to hopefully break them from the notion that their perception aligns with reality.
Deconstruction is what got me out of that ideological mind prison. I would recommend it.
That’s the dumbed definition of a word I’ve seen in quite a while. How about:
“advocating women’s rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.”
They may do it by setting fire to a Theatre just to try to kill a single person, like a terrorist group, but at least this definition fits.
The whole “Feminism is for both sexes” has always been bullshit. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
Buddy. That quote is from a foundational feminist writer. You don’t know what feminism is.
Yeah, just re-read my previous comment.
I didn’t expect more from you, to be honest.
Again, you are showing signs if a disturbed perspective. Your line if thinking leads to narcissism if it is a common reaction and it is not addressed
You are still just complaining about the intersection of patriarchy and capitalism. What you are saying is feminist theory. We are still in agreement here, though I disagree with the way you word it.
For example. You say that the average women wants to live like Instagram models. You are right, but that is due to patriarchy creating the cultural expectations that men are unable to meet in the modern world due to capitalisms squeeze. It is women simply trying to meet their side of the expectation.
Feminism is in part about how patriarchy binds both genders by expectations. People generally focus on the way it binds women. However it fucks men over as well. We are expected to have money, we are expected to “provide” weather in the classical sense of a family or in the modern sense of just having the money to meet consumerist whims, it doesn’t really matter which one your talking about, it’s still patriarchy.
When patriarchy is normally discussed it’s about how men are privileged and women are oppressed. And while even as a, as the incels like to say, “low value man” you do have some societal privileges, it is very often ignored that patriarchy oppresses us men as well for not meeting those expectations. In this case, having money. Which we don’t because capitalism funnels money into fewer and fewer hands, making fewer and fewer men able to achieve those expectations.
I hope I explained this well and didn’t talk in too many circles. Like I said. Wombo combo of capitalism and patriarchy that tag team to fuck over men.
This is where we disagree, and it’s not just the words that we use. Women are greedy, too. They like the nice things men buy them. They don’t care about the true cost of consumerism because they’ve been conditioned to ignore it.
This is why I agree with you insomuch as women aren’t able to think for themselves. I don’t put that expectation on them. People richer than us do. Even though I’m able to rise above their influence, the average person cannot. This goes doubly-so for women because women have been encouraged for generations to function as one entity as much as possible.
That’s still not disagreeing with me though. You are agreeing fundamentally with what I am saying, but you don’t understand what the words mean. You have a false consciousness of your own that is at this moment blocking you from understanding what mean by “patriarchy”.
The only difference in what we are saying is that you don’t know the big fancy words and theory backing it up and instead replace it with anti women language that you have picked up and understood. At the core, past the language and operating on pure ideas, we are saying the same thing.
It is disagreeing, though. You’re saying that women can’t rise above the expectations put on them by “the patriarchy.” I agree that women, on average, cannot think for themselves.
It’s not the fault of the patriarchy that women like expensive things and are willing to reward males who buy them things with sex. Women themselves encourage this behavior.
Trying to absolve them of any responsibility is just contributing to the culture of treating women like children.
That’s not what I am saying. Women and men can rise above those expectations. It’s called feminism.
Wrong, you just described patriarchy. You do not know what that word means. You understand it as “men good, women bad”. You described an aspect of patriarchy as it effects both women’s expectations of men and men’s expectations of women.
Of course everyone is responsible for their own actions. However when discussing the way a group of people, especially such a wide one as half the population, you use terms that accurately describe the ideologies at work rather than the group itself. Because to do so builds stereotypes and reinforces false consciousness related to that group. In your case, you are stuck in the male patriarchal false consciousness that is clouding your ability to see that we are saying the same thing.
No, it’s not. It’s called autonomy.
Wrong. I never said nor implied anything like this.
It’s an aspect of the patriarchy, but it stems from consumerism and greed.
Wrong. I’m telling you uncomfortable truths so you have to plug your ears and deny.
No. Seeing their actions builds the stereotype. If they can’t rise above other people’s expectations, then it coincidentally reinforces the idea that they can’t think for themselves.
In your case, you’re desperate to prove that “feminism is the solution and the patriarchy is the problem” when the real issue is greed and consumerism.
We can just agree to disagree here. If you’re going to be pretentious and patronizing by saying “I agree but I don’t understand the words being used,” then just re-read this comment.
Patriarchy and capitalism go hand in hand. We are still saying the same thing. You do not know what those words mean. You take it as patronizing because it would be silly for you to not know what that word means.
Except it’s not silly. It’s extremely common. That’s why there’s a whole academic theory about it. False consciousness. It’s a very hard thing to break yourself out of. It’s kinda like alcoholic rehab. The first step is admitting you are in it and beginning to deconstruct it.
Our entire society is built in reinforcing these false consciousness. It is very very difficult to break them. As I said in another thread to you. I hope this is a seed of words and ideas that hopefully someone who speaks your language better will water and sprout into understanding.
I’m sorry that this is all sounding patronizing and elitist and whatever else that makes you feel small. I genuinely do. Please take everything I have said how I intended it. With love and hope and empathy and understanding.
With attitudes like I see you displaying, I wouldn’t sleep with you either. Listen to yourself and the words you use. That’s not thinking for yourself, that’s focusing on perceived others’ faults in order to take zero responsibility for own faults.
🥱
Easy block.
The women whose minds are also enslaved to the patriarchy encourage this. Sounds like we’re saying the same thing
Not really. I’m referring to women enjoying the benefits they get from having others do the work for them.
Trying to argue that they can’t enjoy this without some overarching control is just reinforcing the idea that women can’t think for themselves.
Good job doing your part to reinforce the idea that women should be treated like children.
Interesting perspective. I think we’re arguing from two different viewpoints here. Mine is that the women I’m referring to have a sense of entitlement to male servitude (the sole cause of this i proclaim to be patriarchy) while yours seems to be they don’t necessarily feel entitled, but are just “enjoying the spoils of war” so to speak.