A recent event led me to fact check something that I thought must be untrue, which is that Ukraine conscripts people into the military against their will, including making those people that had previously fulfilled their obligations return to the battlefield.
Moreso, when browsing X recently I saw bunch of videos being posted of what claimed were police forcing people into vans to go fight in Ukraine. The police were beating these people in the process. Now, it is possible that some of this content is propaganda, but I did want to find out if Ukraine forces conscription.
It appears that it is true:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Ukraine
I am very much against conscription. I still support Ukraine’s independence, but the fact that they are forcing people to fight through beatings, arrests, etc. is sickening to me and makes me lose respect for Zelensky. According to an estimate by Ukrainian commanders, 50% to 70% of Ukrainian conscripts are killed or wounded in their first few days in combat on some areas of the front.
What are others thoughts on this?
So you equally oppose the brutal conscription efforts of Ukraine’s invader and occupier, Russia? Since you didn’t mention it?
This is the correct response to OP’s transparently bad-faith question.
Yeah, I’m not a fan of conscription. I’ve seen Ukrainian loved ones reckon with the difficulty of the need for a self-defense force while the rest of the world sits on its hands. I’m happy to discuss it, as long as it’s an honest discussion about conscription and not purely Ukrainian conscription?
Did I say I am only against Ukrainian conscription? No I did not.
Why focus on the country that is defending itself and thus using conscription as a necessary evil, instead of the aggressor using conscription to go kill innocent people? For pure conquest by an insecure little bald man. One seems closer to an evil necessity, the other just like evil, at least to me.
I bring up conscription because I’m opposed to it, that is why. That includes Russia doing it, but Ukraine is supposed to be the democracy not the dictatorship. I’m not going to look at this & think to myself, well Russia is worse so even if Ukraine started force-breeding women to create more future soldiers then it is okay cause Russia is bad. I can understand Putin is a fascist dictator, but Ukraine forcing people to war through kidnapping/beating/jail/etc. is not good either.
I agree with what you’re saying. I’m just trying to contextualize why I responded as I did. Tensions are high, I meant nothing personal.
To my earlier point, I saw this happen with a Ukrainian ex who I spoke with the day Russia started to bomb. I urged her to do everything possible to leave, but her mother refused. Her brother was expected to stay and fight, her mom wouldn’t leave her brother. It’s brutal. On the one hand, what do you do if you’re Ukraine? Roll over and let Russia progress, so even more people die? Hand over your country? Ideally you could count on your allies to help, but seeing as one country’s population is being asked to shoulder the burden, I’m really not sure what to make of it all.
In World War II Europe and the US were democracies that relied on conscription to save democracy and defeat dictatorships.
And they were still bad for doing that.
Yeah, stopping the Nazis turned out bad for everyone. Dumbest fucking statement.
Fair enough.
But are you aware that Russia has had multiple rounds of conscription? Have you considered that many of Russia’s hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers were not properly supplied and used cynically as cannon fodder against Ukraine - and were therefore obviously deployed under some form of duress? Either as prison convicts or press-ganged off the street in poor remote parts of the Russian Federation that nobody in Moscow cares about.
Let’s remind ourselves who is the aggressor here, and who is responsible for the vast majority of the war crimes in this pointless war that could end tomorrow if Russia called off its illegal invasion.
In the light of all this, why would you be so concerned about the aggressed party’s respect for legal procedures as defined under its own laws?
Perhaps it’s time you stopped watching this “bunch of videos” and starting getting your information from reputable sources instead.
Yes, am I’m not okay with that either. I’m not okay with conscription in Russia, Israel, South Korea, Ukraine or anywhere. I find it odd that I say I’m not okay with conscription, and you and many others chime in with things like… “Did you know Russia has conscription?” Do you think Ukraine should be more like the authoritarian dictatorship in Russia, is that what you’re trying to say?
I agree with this, but it is a bit beside the point in regards to conscription. Russia should call of its illegal invasion, but Ukraine should also not be involved in forcing people to go to war against their will else get kidnapped/beat/jailed or worse.
Prob because forcing people to war through kidnappings/beatings/jailing/etc is human rights violations IMO and one wrong doesn’t justify another. Have you read about internment camps in the US before? Do you think those were justified cause Japan was the aggressor?
I already explained I assumed some of them could be propaganda, but I did additional research & posted 2 links that include plenty of additional reliable sources. Are you suggesting now that PBS is not a reputable source? Or that Ukraine doesn’t do conscription? It turns out many of those things in the videos actually DO happen. I assumed they were propaganda, but it turns out that this is really happening.
It’s no secret that Ukraine has conscription. It’s a country at war, because it’s been invaded. Wartime rules therefore apply. This is also why the election has been postponed, automatically and legally. Historically, many countries have had peacetime conscription. The UK had it until the 1960s for example, France’s until the late 90s.
Ukraine had conscription for only for 27-and-overs until recently. It’s now 25.
None of this is a secret.
Since you seem especially concerned about the moral aspects of the subject, and cite scandalous abuses, the question is unavoidable: why you are so exercised by Ukraine’s situation when Russia is far, far, far worse on all these fronts? It’s odd.
Ukraine is supposed to be the democracy. Forced conscription is not something that I believe democracies engage in. What if Ukraine started requiring women to have one baby a year, and if they refused, they force bred them. Would you be okay with that?
Are you an American male between 18 and 25? If so enjoy your forced military service. Failure to sign up for the selective service is punishible by a $250000 fine or 5 years in prison. It’s also a requirement for student aid or federal employment. Democracies have conscription too
I think Putin is fascist dictator. I literally said I am very much against conscription & I still support Ukraine’s independence, but yet here you are ignoring it like an unprogrammed NPC that can’t imagine being critical of an action by Ukraine without someone being a Putin apologist. Let me be clear again since me claiming to be against conscription wasn’t enough for you. I am against conscription in Ukraine, Russia, Israel, South Korea & anywhere that does it. It almost always leads to more fascism & not less.
Are you looking for reasons to not answer the question?
Why are you trying to make this about russia when its not relevant for the question? Just because there is someone worse doesnt excuse the lesser evil. And it certainly should not stop us from viewing them objectively/critically.
When someone beats their kid you wouldnt say “but they got raped by their parents thats much worse”.
Btw Im not saying Ukraine is to blame here, I havent done research into this particular topic, just saying we shouldnt dismiss info just because theres an aggressor doing worse shit.