A recent event led me to fact check something that I thought must be untrue, which is that Ukraine conscripts people into the military against their will, including making those people that had previously fulfilled their obligations return to the battlefield.
Moreso, when browsing X recently I saw bunch of videos being posted of what claimed were police forcing people into vans to go fight in Ukraine. The police were beating these people in the process. Now, it is possible that some of this content is propaganda, but I did want to find out if Ukraine forces conscription.
It appears that it is true:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Ukraine
I am very much against conscription. I still support Ukraine’s independence, but the fact that they are forcing people to fight through beatings, arrests, etc. is sickening to me and makes me lose respect for Zelensky. According to an estimate by Ukrainian commanders, 50% to 70% of Ukrainian conscripts are killed or wounded in their first few days in combat on some areas of the front.
What are others thoughts on this?
For a post that sparks good answers that I’m happy to see, I’m sad to see the post itself have so many down votes.
Anything that can be seen as anti Ukraine is going to generate a lot of down votes in liberal/right wing instances.
Including very real ethical questions that just use Ukraine as an example.
So you equally oppose the brutal conscription efforts of Ukraine’s invader and occupier, Russia? Since you didn’t mention it?
This is the correct response to OP’s transparently bad-faith question.
Yeah, I’m not a fan of conscription. I’ve seen Ukrainian loved ones reckon with the difficulty of the need for a self-defense force while the rest of the world sits on its hands. I’m happy to discuss it, as long as it’s an honest discussion about conscription and not purely Ukrainian conscription?
I am very much against conscription.
Did I say I am only against Ukrainian conscription? No I did not.
Why focus on the country that is defending itself and thus using conscription as a necessary evil, instead of the aggressor using conscription to go kill innocent people? For pure conquest by an insecure little bald man. One seems closer to an evil necessity, the other just like evil, at least to me.
I bring up conscription because I’m opposed to it, that is why. That includes Russia doing it, but Ukraine is supposed to be the democracy not the dictatorship. I’m not going to look at this & think to myself, well Russia is worse so even if Ukraine started force-breeding women to create more future soldiers then it is okay cause Russia is bad. I can understand Putin is a fascist dictator, but Ukraine forcing people to war through kidnapping/beating/jail/etc. is not good either.
I agree with what you’re saying. I’m just trying to contextualize why I responded as I did. Tensions are high, I meant nothing personal.
To my earlier point, I saw this happen with a Ukrainian ex who I spoke with the day Russia started to bomb. I urged her to do everything possible to leave, but her mother refused. Her brother was expected to stay and fight, her mom wouldn’t leave her brother. It’s brutal. On the one hand, what do you do if you’re Ukraine? Roll over and let Russia progress, so even more people die? Hand over your country? Ideally you could count on your allies to help, but seeing as one country’s population is being asked to shoulder the burden, I’m really not sure what to make of it all.
In World War II Europe and the US were democracies that relied on conscription to save democracy and defeat dictatorships.
And they were still bad for doing that.
Fair enough.
But are you aware that Russia has had multiple rounds of conscription? Have you considered that many of Russia’s hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers were not properly supplied and used cynically as cannon fodder against Ukraine - and were therefore obviously deployed under some form of duress? Either as prison convicts or press-ganged off the street in poor remote parts of the Russian Federation that nobody in Moscow cares about.
Let’s remind ourselves who is the aggressor here, and who is responsible for the vast majority of the war crimes in this pointless war that could end tomorrow if Russia called off its illegal invasion.
In the light of all this, why would you be so concerned about the aggressed party’s respect for legal procedures as defined under its own laws?
Perhaps it’s time you stopped watching this “bunch of videos” and starting getting your information from reputable sources instead.
But are you aware that Russia has had multiple rounds of conscription? Have you considered that many of Russia’s hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers were not properly supplied and used cynically as cannon fodder against Ukraine - and were therefore obviously deployed under some form of duress? Either as prison convicts or press-ganged off the street in poor remote parts of the Russian Federation that nobody in Moscow cares about.
Yes, am I’m not okay with that either. I’m not okay with conscription in Russia, Israel, South Korea, Ukraine or anywhere. I find it odd that I say I’m not okay with conscription, and you and many others chime in with things like… “Did you know Russia has conscription?” Do you think Ukraine should be more like the authoritarian dictatorship in Russia, is that what you’re trying to say?
Let’s remind ourselves who is the aggressor here, and who is responsible for the vast majority of the war crimes in this pointless war that could end tomorrow if Russia called off its illegal invasion.
I agree with this, but it is a bit beside the point in regards to conscription. Russia should call of its illegal invasion, but Ukraine should also not be involved in forcing people to go to war against their will else get kidnapped/beat/jailed or worse.
In the light of all this, why would you be so concerned about the aggressed party’s respect for legal procedures as defined under its own laws?
Prob because forcing people to war through kidnappings/beatings/jailing/etc is human rights violations IMO and one wrong doesn’t justify another. Have you read about internment camps in the US before? Do you think those were justified cause Japan was the aggressor?
Perhaps it’s time you stopped watching this “bunch of videos” and starting getting your information from reputable sources instead.
I already explained I assumed some of them could be propaganda, but I did additional research & posted 2 links that include plenty of additional reliable sources. Are you suggesting now that PBS is not a reputable source? Or that Ukraine doesn’t do conscription? It turns out many of those things in the videos actually DO happen. I assumed they were propaganda, but it turns out that this is really happening.
It’s no secret that Ukraine has conscription. It’s a country at war, because it’s been invaded. Wartime rules therefore apply. This is also why the election has been postponed, automatically and legally. Historically, many countries have had peacetime conscription. The UK had it until the 1960s for example, France’s until the late 90s.
Ukraine had conscription for only for 27-and-overs until recently. It’s now 25.
None of this is a secret.
Since you seem especially concerned about the moral aspects of the subject, and cite scandalous abuses, the question is unavoidable: why you are so exercised by Ukraine’s situation when Russia is far, far, far worse on all these fronts? It’s odd.
Since you seem especially concerned about the moral aspects of the subject, and cite scandalous abuses, the question is unavoidable: why you are so exercised by Ukraine’s situation when Russia is far, far, far worse on all these fronts? It’s odd.
Ukraine is supposed to be the democracy. Forced conscription is not something that I believe democracies engage in. What if Ukraine started requiring women to have one baby a year, and if they refused, they force bred them. Would you be okay with that?
I am very much against conscription.
I still support Ukraine’s independence
I think Putin is fascist dictator. I literally said I am very much against conscription & I still support Ukraine’s independence, but yet here you are ignoring it like an unprogrammed NPC that can’t imagine being critical of an action by Ukraine without someone being a Putin apologist. Let me be clear again since me claiming to be against conscription wasn’t enough for you. I am against conscription in Ukraine, Russia, Israel, South Korea & anywhere that does it. It almost always leads to more fascism & not less.
Are you looking for reasons to not answer the question?
Why are you trying to make this about russia when its not relevant for the question? Just because there is someone worse doesnt excuse the lesser evil. And it certainly should not stop us from viewing them objectively/critically.
When someone beats their kid you wouldnt say “but they got raped by their parents thats much worse”.
Btw Im not saying Ukraine is to blame here, I havent done research into this particular topic, just saying we shouldnt dismiss info just because theres an aggressor doing worse shit.
It is highly unpopular here to criticize Ukraine, and people kinda have good reasons for it, with all the far-right/trolls/tankies praising Russia and undermining Ukraine support.
Still, and though I support Ukrainians in a war made by Russia, conscription (it’s always forced btw) is something I can’t get over with, it goes against liberty, equality, solidarity, everything i believe in. Fuck armies, anywhere, anywhen, anyhow. It does not mean that they should be unfunded/unsupported/fought against, just that we have to remember that they are bad to the core, and that even when necessary, they should not get any glory, any power or any reward.
“Despise the infamous glory of laurel-bearing heroes, all assassins and pirates who terrorized the whole world”. - La Paysanne, Gaston Couté
Anyway, i hope for peace in Ukraine, that they will get their previous frontiers, and that violences will soon come to an end, so that forced soldiers on both sides and Ukrainian civilians can escape this hell.
I’m pro national service - whether that takes the form of mail delivery, community work, fire service, environmental remediation (!!) there’s a shitton of work to be done, give kids free education and get them enrolled for services and benefits and skim off the best for leadership. Or, military or federal security service. There’s a ton of different ways for people to serve their country and we should accommodate all who are willing to step up.
You know, I can fuck with this to an extent.
I think folks should always have the right to refuse, but I think some sort of national service obligation in exchange for education assistance could be beneficial.
In the US, there is currently a federal loan program for college students, where the government fronts some or all of the cost to attend college and you pay it back later. The government also has debt forgiveness programs if you later go to work for a non-profit or public office and make consistent repayments for a number of years, but that is unreliable, requires a set number of conditions to be met, and usually takes a long time.
The US military has programs where they will pay for all of your college education if you enlist, but not everyone is comfortable going into the military and that comes with its own obvious risks.
In lieu of the loan system, if there was a similar program for agreeing to work as a public servant for X number of years in exchange for free school, it could be appealing. It would be a decent resume builder for participants to have a stable job and income during their period of service after they finish school while they have time to look for a long-term career once their service is finished, and they wouldn’t have to stress about trying to land a forgiveness-qualifying job that they need to stay at for 10 years or more while also never missing a payment on their interest-accruing loan.
I think folks should always have the right to refuse,
mos def. the trick is to make it fun and part of the transition to adulthood, so they want to serve.
In lieu of the loan system, if there was a similar program for agreeing to work as a public servant for X number of years in exchange for free school, it could be appealing.
in addition to schooling, give them access to home loans too. make it possible for people to own houses again.
crazy dreams right?
Shit I’d do a lot worse for a house.
clear firebreaks or hunt invasive species in order to get the gi-bill equiv? fuck yeah…
I think in a war for survival you do what has to be done.
Survival for who? Cuz those conscripts mostly die.
Mostly die? Maybe a quarter of Ukranian troops have become casualties. Deaths are maybe 1/4th of the casualties
Conscripts don’t die at the same rate as volunteers. There’s testimony of commanders demanding bribes from soldiers to not be sent to the front.
Conscripts die in droves. I guess I can’t say, for sure, that they mostly die, but their survival sure doesn’t seem to matter.
There have been over a million conscripts in Ukraine afaik. They haven’t even hit 50k deaths TOTAL (including civilians might make it just above that).
Most? Stop with the disinformation. It would be one thing if the number was close but it isn’t.
I’m pretty sure we don’t actually know the number of deaths, but also, I’m not trying to argue that they actually do die at a rate of 50% and you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill. My point is that the survival of conscripts doesn’t matter and so the question becomes “whose survival matters?” Like I said, I can’t say for sure that they mostly die. But they sure as fuck die.
What are you basing the statement that their survival doesnt matter on? They are soldiers that are inevitably needed in a war, but the countries survival depends on their success in the war which is kind of equivalent to the survival of as many of them as possible.
To me it seems Ukraine can choose between not having enough troops and inevitably losing the war and their country, or sending in conscripts (of which a certain percentage will die) and having a chance of fighting back.
It does seem cruel that some are forced to die (or risk dying) for the survival of the masses, but would it be better if all citizens were forced equally, women and children included? What would be the alternative? Relying on volunteers alone doesnt seem enough, so should they abandon their country?They don’t want to die and are being marched to their deaths? They’re conscripts.
If people want to abandon the country, fucking let them.
So if Trump forces people to go to war by having police jail & beat them, you’ll support it?
We’re being invaded by a country that’s much more well-resourced than us? Then yes.
But I dont believe we are…
By forcing your citizens to die for profit?
These endless wars will continue, since money has to be made, and corporations and oligarchs have a lot of sway when it comes to foreign policy.
The next war my country’s oligarchs and corporations are pushing for is with Iran and China; the duopoly is owned and funded by these corporations and oligarchs.
I am pro defensive conscription in the case of foreign invasion. I believe that thus far, Zelensky’s administration has had to tread a fine line between preserving democratic ideals and surrendering the country to a foreign invader, but they’ve done the best they possibly could given the circumstances.
The fact of the matter is that in an invasion, everyone is on the front line, whether they want to be or not. Defensive conscription enables the best organized defense against the foreign invader, and provides a structure and resources for ordinary citizens to fight back. Uncoordinated underground efforts against invading forces rarely succeed, but properly trained citizens, with the full support of the country’s military and defensive resources, do.
In a defensive war against an equal or more powerful enemy, everyone is needed to do the part the military organisation needs them to. For many it’s their civilian job, for the rest it’s whatever’s needed, including the front lines (after training, well-equipped and well-led). War’s ugly.
I’d be highly sceptical of any beatings occurring. Common sense suggests that an unwilling soldier you got to the front that way would likely bring more harm to the morale of their fellow troopmates, than benefit through their own efforts.
at least its more equal than having people “volunteer” for service, even if the rich can still avoid it but its not like laws hold meaning to them anyway.
Ultimately, any country that is not willing to conscript their population when necessary to do so for defense, will soon cease to be a country. It is an evil, but a necessary evil. Place the blame where it belongs, on the aggressors.
Being forced to die for a country I didn’t choose to be born in isn’t right and should never be the norm.
While I agree to some extent, I think it is not that simple. By being born as citizen of a country, you automatically gain lots of benefits like protection from violence or healthcare, but also get responsibilities, like following the law. In extreme cases, your country could depend on its citizens protecting it. You could argue that you didnt sign up for either of those, but thats just how humanity evolved and if we abolish these “contracts”, thats anarchy.
In this case, if all citizens were given the choice not to fight for Ukraine, it could very well be that it would be under Russian control by now, costing millions of people their home. Not saying that is definitely the case though, I dont know enough about the details.I understand and even agree with some parts of your point here, but:
By being born as citizen of a country, you automatically gain lots of benefits like protection from violence or healthcare.
Yeah, being a US citizen gets you neither of those things in reality unless you’re rich & powerful. I guarantee the people they’d be kidnapping here in the US & sending to war aren’t the rich kids.
Yes capitalism changes the rules. Still, being a US citizen has lots of benefits, laws are favorable for most people. Even with all the police brutality and school shootings going on, not having any regulation would probably be much worse (take a look at countries with even higher corruption rates)
Very much against conscription. If the country is worth dying for, people will volunteer. Otherwise, it is cruel and unfair to force people to suffer for a country they didn’t choose to be born in.
To clarify for the commenters who seem to think anti conscription = pro Russia, no, Russia is an authoritarian dictatorship, and conscription is unethical in all countries. Democratic countries should model the moral behaviour.
If the country is worth dying for, people will volunteer.
While I agree that conscription is generally not good and shouldnt be necessary, this statement is definitely not true. Humans usually care for their lives and the responsibility for their families first.
Imagine a situation in which you live in a perfect utopia of a country, but every year, one citizen has to be sacrificed. Would you volunteer immediately? Probably not. Given the choice not to die, most people would take it. Would you agree to 1 person out of X million being picked randomly and accepting it if youre chosen? I think thats more likely. It seems fair and your chances of being chosen are very small because of the number of people involved.That doesn’t sound like a utopia, it sounds like a The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas situation.
I dont know that book but yeah, it sound like a thought experiment easy to come up with.
I think that conscription is fine where there’s a military need for it.
I wouldn’t say “it’s the right decision” across the board, though.
Kind of like asking “What are your feelings on amphibious assaults? Good or bad?”
I mean, they’re a tool. There’s a time and place for them.
I don’t think that conscription has some sort of intrinsic social benefits, which some people seem to. Nor do I think that it is morally-objectionable, which some others seem to.
I don’t think the vast majority of people are pro conscription. Some see it as necessary, but I wouldn’t call that pro. That said, if other countries provided professional soldiers instead of just money, maybe conscription wouldn’t be needed.
Yes, that’s why we have conscription. So in the event of an invasion we can compel citizens to serve 2-3 years of military service.
We could also do it the American way and make sure half the population is poor and that you need money for healthcare and university education. It’s a bit like how you could get Roman citizenship if you served. I like conscription better.
Yup, pro Ukrainian AND Russian conscription. I’ll be pro-Canadian conscription once the US tries to annex us.
