Once somebody becomes an illegal, everything they do is inherently illegal until they retreat from American soil. How is it possible for them to be less illegal than a bona fide American when their entire state of being, and everything they do, is inherently illegal?
That’s not how the legal system treats it. Being in the country illegal is counted as one crime.
Anyone who has any kind of negative association with the American flag needs to get out of the US, ASAP, and I do support deportation for them.
The government deporting people based on political opinions like this is antithetical to the founding principles of our nation, and is un-american. It’s also a violation of the first amendment.
I only ask that you trust me when I say I don’t worship the flag.
I’m sorry but I can’t trust that when you treat people who don’t respect the flag as a moral failures.
saying the pledge without an opening prayer can certainly leave the wrong impression.
Opening prayer and the allegiance itself leaves the wrong impression. People should not be forced to partake in another’s religion, nor should they be forced to worship the flag/the country.
I’m aware. The Left has a voice in the legal system, and as a result it’s soft on crime, and especially crime related to this discussion. But in truth, an illegal immigrant cannot even brush his teeth legally if he does so on American soil.
The government deporting people based on political opinions like this is antithetical to the founding principles of our nation, and is un-american.
“Love it or leave it” is a traditionally American patriotic slogan. It’s simple but true, and it applies to all things in life, not just the country. But when it comes to the country, it should be policy. I don’t favor kicking out any legitimate citizen who recognizes this is the best country in the world, and would gladly fight and die to defend it. But for the leftists who hate America and want to change it to become more like some other country, they really need to pack up and move to that other country. There’s nothing un-American about saying Americans ought to be American at heart.
It’s also a violation of the first amendment.
Not really, because I wouldn’t want to take away anyone’s right to freely express their position, even if that means criticizing America. They have every right to cuss up a storm while they spew their hatred of everything American, while I help them pack, and escort them to the airport.
I’m sorry but I can’t trust that when you treat people who don’t respect the flag as a moral failures.
That fact makes you certain I worship the flag? That doesn’t make any sense. I stand up for my neighbors, and by extension my country, and by extension the cloth that symbolizes it. That’s not worship. That’s just following what Jesus said is the second most important commandment.
Opening prayer and the allegiance itself leaves the wrong impression. People should not be forced to partake in another’s religion, nor should they be forced to worship the flag/the country.
It’s worthwhile to look at the background of the '62 ban on school prayer. Protestants read from the KJV, and Catholics didn’t like the KJV. The argument was all about which translation to use in public schools. SCOTUS decided that the only way to solve the problem was to choose no Bible at all.
It’s also worthwhile to consider the Crusades, which were successful by some measures, but are also widely criticized for valid reasons. One of those reasons is that it’s truly impossible to force anyone to believe in a religion if they don’t want to. And it’s counterproductive to try.
So I agree that people shouldn’t be forced to partake in religious practices against their will. But that just means we should leave Protestant vs Catholic fights to other forums, and prayers in public forums like schools should be generic. Whatever religion Americans hold, we can safely assume it’s some form of Christianity, with a slim possibility of Judaism in some places.
When it comes to satanists, atheists, or anyone else who rejects the God for which America was founded, they should be given a genuine chance to repent and accept God before being politely deported.
And as for being “forced to worship the flag/the country”, again, the pledge of allegiance just says “I promise to love my neighbor.” If someone can’t pledge to do that, you’ve got to wonder why they live here.
But in truth, an illegal immigrant cannot even brush his teeth legally if he does so on American soil.
That’s not true. I hate to repeat myself, but that’s not how the judicial branch treats it. To treat brushing your teeth in this manner to be illegal would be a violation of the 5th amendment of the constitution, because that would be double jeopardy. And this isn’t a thing the left is responsible for, because the left did not write the constitution.
“Love it or leave it” is a traditionally American patriotic slogan.
And it’s one that is a great disservice to this country.
But for the leftists who hate America and want to change it to become more like some other country, they really need to pack up and move to that other country.
I would if I could. But that costs thousands of dollars, and that’s assuming you find a good country that will take you in at all. Your expectation for people to up and move is unrealistic given the reality that it isn’t possible for a third to half of Americans to immigrate to Europe.
You’re suggesting upwards of 100 million people up and move to another country. That isn’t realistic, nor is it an effective solution to the problem.
The United States needs to be able to change instead of just kicking people out, and that’s why the founding fathers specifically built our country to be able to accommodate change.
There’s nothing un-American about saying Americans ought to be American at heart.
That’s not what you said though:
“Anyone who has any kind of negative association with the American flag needs to get out of the US, ASAP, and I do support deportation for them.”
Deporting american citizens because they disagree with you is un-american. And it’s also a violation of the first amendment.
Not really, because I wouldn’t want to take away anyone’s right to freely express their position, even if that means criticizing America. They have every right to cuss up a storm while they spew their hatred of everything American, while I help them pack, and escort them to the airport.
The government forcing people out of the country because of their expressed opinion/position is a direct violation of the first amendment. The government CANNOT punish people for their opinions, and deporting them is a form of punishment.
That fact makes you certain I worship the flag? That doesn’t make any sense. I stand up for my neighbors, and by extension my country, and by extension the cloth that symbolizes it. That’s not worship. That’s just following what Jesus said is the second most important commandment.
If you said the same thing about Jesus as you did the flag I would think the same about you worshiping Jesus.
But that just means we should leave Protestant vs Catholic fights to other forums, and prayers in public forums like schools should be generic.
Prayer in schools even if generic is still a form of forcing religion upon others.
When it comes to satanists, atheists, or anyone else who rejects the God for which America was founded, they should be given a genuine chance to repent and accept God before being politely deported.
This is the same un-american violation of the first amendment as above.
the pledge of allegiance just says “I promise to love my neighbor.”
That’s not at all what it says.
“I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all”
I acquiesce this is technically correct. I didn’t really mean it like that, exactly, but it’s useless to belabor the point because we’re beating a dead horse.
I would if I could. But that costs thousands of dollars,
Interesting. Where would you move, out of curiosity?
At times in the past I’ve mulled over starting a non-profit for the purpose of funding politically-oriented moves like this, where funds are granted to people of all political persuasions to relocate to a more politically appropriate place, and where funds are donated by people wanting to help accelerate that sorting process.
I wouldn’t really start that non-profit, because ultimately it would distract from legitimately good charities, but it does cross my mind now and then.
and that’s assuming you find a good country that will take you in at all.
Yes, well this is also one of the reasons why all of my calls for deportation are unrealistic.
Deporting american citizens because they disagree with you is un-american. And it’s also a violation of the first amendment.
Agreed, but disagreeing with me is not the problem. I enjoy open disagreement, as I’m mostly enjoying this conversation with you. We can learn from engaging with people of differing perspectives.
When you talk about people who harbor a negative association with the American flag, though, that’s far beyond a disagreement. You’re talking about domestic terrorists there. They’re absolutely not American at heart, so why would we allow them to live here? These are people who are likely to commit mass murder at the drop of a hat. I imagine there’s probably less than a dozen such people nationwide.
Prayer in schools even if generic is still a form of forcing religion upon others.
Not whatsoever. There are a zillion denominations and factions of Christianity, and they’re all welcome here, no matter how zany they are. Moreover, prayer is an open dialog with God, so almost all Christian prayers are fairly applicable to Jews and Muslims too, if they overlook a few words. That’s the broadest acceptable spectrum of every religion in America. Bear in mind that we have the freedom of religion, not freedom from it.
That’s not at all what [the Pledge] says.
You’re being overly literal. I know what the words to the Pledge are, thank you. I just recited it earlier today in church. What I meant was that it ultimately tells us to love our neighbors. That’s the root meaning behind it.
Interesting. Where would you move, out of curiosity?
If I could move anywhere? Probably the Netherlands. They have walkable cities, good job, good healthcare, a healthy respect for the environment. They have many of the policies I would like to see happen here, and they are the happiest nation on Earth if I recall.
In reality? I will probably be moving to Costa Rica, at the very least for when I retire. My girlfriend is there and the cost of living is a decent bit cheaper there. When we move depends on a lot of things, but it is currently our backup. We are pretty damn terrified of the authoritarian/fascist policies that are becoming popularized in the U.S., and we don’t want to be persecuted for being who we are. So if things get particularly bad we might just end up getting a greencard wedding is Costa Rica.
I wouldn’t really start that non-profit, because ultimately it would distract from legitimately good charities, but it does cross my mind now and then.
There is one charity like that which comes to mind to me. It’s called the Rainbow Railroad, and it’s for LGBTQ+ people who are trying to escape persecution, who want to move to a place where they will be safe.
I suspect you would not be a fan of it though.
So on a side note, one thing I’m confused about is that you think people who want to see drastic change in America, who perceive it in a negative light, you think they should move or be deported. Yet when it comes to cartels, you think people should fight to the death to get rid of cartels and corruption.
Why is it in one case the answer is deportation/moving but in the other case it is fighting to the death?
When you talk about people who harbor a negative association with the American flag, though, that’s far beyond a disagreement. You’re talking about domestic terrorists there.
It’s ultimately a disagreement, a huge one sure, but a disagreement. And it’s not domestic terrorism because that involves violence.
They’re absolutely not American at heart, so why would we allow them to live here?
Because the alternative is persecuting them for their beliefs, which is un-American and a 1st amendment violation.
These are people who are likely to commit mass murder at the drop of a hat
You have no evidence for that, but I would actually suspect it’s the opposite, or at least a similar crime rate as the rest.
And the reason for my suspicion is that most mass shootings are done by straight white men, and most domestic terrorism is right wing motivated. Neither of which aligns with the demographics that view the flag in a negative light. The nature of domestic terrorist attacks differs quite a bit between left vs right as well.
From the first one, it would work out to roughly 30 million Americans who overall view the flag negatively. And that’s before you count the people who have a mixed view of it.
That’s the broadest acceptable spectrum of every religion in America
It doesn’t matter if it covers all religions because it’s generic, it’s still religious and forcing it upon children is forcing religion.
Bear in mind that we have the freedom of religion, not freedom from it.
It’s logically impossible to have one without the other. If the state has the ability to force you to partake in religion then we have no freedom of religion. They are one in the same.
What I meant was that it ultimately tells us to love our neighbors. That’s the root meaning behind it.
I don’t think that’s true. The meaning to mean quite clear is limited to this: By reciting the pledge you are promising loyalty to the state, its primary symbol (the flag). The last bit is about affirming the ideals of our country. The under god part of the ideals was in response to the red scare, the one nation indivisible in response to the civil war, etc.
It’s meant to be a patriotic, unifying/rallying cry. But it comes off as incredibly dystopian and creepy.
It doesn’t mention anything about our neighbors.
And to kinda bring up a new point, the Supreme Court had a ruling for Jehova’s Witnesses saying that their children couldn’t be forced to do the pledge because it constituted worship of a false idol, the flag.
And I agree with that ruling. People shouldn’t be forced to do the pledge. Forced speech is a violation of the 1st amendment.
If the government can force you to say something then we are missing a critical component of free speech. The same concept applies to freedom of religion/freedom from religion.
The nature of domestic terrorist attacks differs quite a bit between left vs right as well.
While that’s interesting, you’d need to be far outside the traditional political spectrum to think anything negative about the American flag.
Please understand that I suggest deportation because it’s by far and away the most compassionate approach, as what’s truly deserved is far more violent and lethal, but we can rise above that.
It’s considerably more than that.
Thank you for the links. It’s clear we’ve allowed the problem to fester for too long. We’ll see those numbers quickly return to a natural 100% “love it” if we enforce “love it or leave it”.
it’s still religious and forcing it upon children is forcing religion.
Um, no. We all have a natural relationship with God, and that has nothing to do with any specific religion. We can raise our children in our faith tradition, while educating them about how other denominations disagree on various topics, and allowing them to ultimately choose their own style of worship and details of belief.
It’s logically impossible to have one without the other. If the state has the ability to force you to partake in religion then we have no freedom of religion. They are one in the same.
The state doesn’t have that ability, and neither does anyone else. But if someone is opposed to God, then they’re opposed to American values, and they should be treated as such.
That’s not forcing anyone to partake in religion; it’s just acknowledging that we’re a Christian country at heart, and we always have been, founded on Christian values, and we’re not going to enforce any particular flavor of Christianity, nor are we even going to enforce that people practice Christianity at all, but you certainly must favor God because otherwise you favor Satan.
By reciting the pledge you are promising loyalty to the state
That’s wholly incorrect. We tend to harbor plenty of objections to our politicians, on both sides of the aisle. We fly our flags anyway because they’re our flags, not the politicians’ flags. Politicians are our employees.
It’s meant to be a patriotic, unifying/rallying cry. But it comes off as incredibly dystopian and creepy.
It’s meant to stand for the American people and American values. If you find that dystopian or creepy, I have to wonder if you know your neighbors very well. Honest question: do you?
I didn’t get the first part, nor the other thread if you replied to it. It seems we are hitting the limit of kbin/lemmy at the moment with the bugs it currently has.
you’d need to be far outside the traditional political spectrum to think anything negative about the American flag.
I don’t think so. The american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.
as what’s truly deserved is far more violent and lethal
You are suggesting the death penalty for people’s beliefs. That is antithetical to the principles of our nation.
We’ll see those numbers quickly return to a natural 100% “love it” if we enforce “love it or leave it”.
And it would be immensely harmful to the country to do that. Once you permit the government to punish people for their beliefs, you open the flood gates to a tyrannical government.
Um, no. We all have a natural relationship with God
There is simply no evidence for that. And forcing children to partake in religion is a form of forcing religion. There isn’t any way I can explain it other than that, as this is an issue so straightforward as ‘square goes in square hole’.
it’s just acknowledging that we’re a Christian country at heart, and we always have been, founded on Christian values
That is objectively false.
“As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion" ~ Treaty of Tripoli; initiated under President George Washington, 1796, signed into law by President John Adams, 1797, ratified unanimously by the Senate, 1797, published in full in all 13 states, with no record of complaint or dissent.
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.” –Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” –James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774
“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?”– James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795
“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people… A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785 .
“He had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term– he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects.” –Supreme Court Justice David Davis, on Abraham Lincoln
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” –First Amendment, Constitution of the United States
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible…Some books on Deism fell into my hands…It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist.”
-Benjamin Franklin, “Toward the Mystery” (autobiography)
"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice…he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers…Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did. -Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”- Thomas Jefferson
“There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.”- Thomas Jefferson
“Lighthouses are more useful than churches.”- Ben Franklin7. “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”- Ben Franklin
“In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it.”- Ben Franklin
“This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it”- John Adams
“Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.”- Thomas Paine
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”-Thomas Paine
“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”- Thomas Paine
“The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.”- Abraham Lincoln
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”- James Madison
“In no instance have the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.” ― James Madison
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. " ~ Thomas Jefferson
That’s wholly incorrect.
It’s a pledge (promise) of allegiance (loyalty). My description of the pledge is accurate.
If you find that dystopian or creepy
I find it dystopian and creepy because it’s the same sort of thing that North Korea does, China does, and Nazi Germany did. Forcing people to swear loyalty to the state is a gross misuse of the power of the government.
I have to wonder if you know your neighbors very well. Honest question: do you?
That depends upon what you mean by “neighbors”, and “know”. Sorry, that’s just a very broad question. Can you elaborate?
I didn’t get the first part, nor the other thread if you replied to it. It seems we are hitting the limit of kbin/lemmy at the moment with the bugs it currently has.
[A list of twenty-two, count 'em twenty two quotes meant to demonstrate that it’s objectively false to claim that “we’re a Christian country at heart, and we always have been, founded on Christian values”]
Did they teach you to keep a file of such quotes in your atheist training seminars? If your goal was to overwhelm me, congrats, you succeeded. This conversation is already so long and unwieldy that there’s no way I’m going to address each of these. Suffice it to say that you’re wrong about this, and a suitable reply would be book length. And I’m not talking about a small or medium-sized book.
I will just briefly address the first one to mention that it’s from an international treaty with a Muslim nation to protect American lives. We told them what they wanted to hear, to get them to agree. So goes international treaties. They’re rhetoric devised to achieve political goals, and they mean nothing beyond that. Yes, we assured Muslims that our government is not founded on Christianity, and if you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Each of these quotes you offered either has a similarly simple rebuttal, or is actually correct without implying what you think it implies. Some of them are taken out of important context. I’ll leave it at that.
I find it dystopian and creepy because it’s the same sort of thing that North Korea does, China does, and Nazi Germany did. Forcing people to swear loyalty to the state is a gross misuse of the power of the government.
Listen, we agree that North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany are all bad countries, and we wouldn’t want to imitate them. So let’s at least take a moment to appreciate our agreement.
As for the alleged similarity of our Pledge, it’s only superficially similar in that citizens are naturally loyal to their countries, right or wrong. Yes, the Bellamy Salute looked a whole lot like our enemies’ patriotic gestures, but even though that similarity was superficial, we changed it.
The elephant in the room is that the US is at heart nothing whatsoever like any other country, including the ethnostates of North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany. We’re so dissimilar from other countries that it’s wrong to compare us in almost any way at all. No other country in the world was founded in an act of revolution formed as an appeal to heaven.
[Replying to “I have to wonder if you know your neighbors very well. Honest question: do you?”] That depends upon what you mean by “neighbors”, and “know”. Sorry, that’s just a very broad question. Can you elaborate?
As for what I mean by “neighbor”, I refer you to Luke 10:29-37:
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
As for “know”, it’s a broad spectrum ranging from “stranger” to “wife”. I’m asking how well you know them, and it could be anywhere along that spectrum.
Did they teach you to keep a file of such quotes in your atheist training seminars? If your goal was to overwhelm me, congrats, you succeeded.
There were no such seminars, and my intention is not to overwhelm. It’s simply silly to say that the united states is a christian nation when the founders were very clear that it wasn’t.
I will just briefly address the first one to mention that it’s from an international treaty with a Muslim nation to protect American lives.
The reasons why it was signed isn’t relevant given the supremacy clause of the united states which states that treaties signed by congress/the president are part of US law. The treaty is therefore the law of the land, and it says that we were not founded as a christian nation. The law says we are not a christian nation. The constitution effectively says so as well with the establishment clause.
As for the alleged similarity of our Pledge, it’s only superficially similar in that citizens are naturally loyal to their countries, right or wrong.
I’d argue it’s more than superficial because it is forced upon impressionable, young minds. But even if it was only superficial, it is sufficiently bad enough of an image to be creepy.
Yes, the Bellamy Salute looked a whole lot like our enemies’ patriotic gestures, but even though that similarity was superficial, we changed it.
They were/are pretty much identical. And despite the change, the rest of the creepiness of it persists.
We’re so dissimilar from other countries that it’s wrong to compare us in almost any way at all. No other country in the world was founded in an act of revolution formed as an appeal to heaven.
There is this sales tactic that some companies use, they’ll say something along the lines of “Nobody has a bigger selection than us!” or “We have the highest rated customer service in our industry”. They say some thing that they are technically correct about, but it misses the bigger picture. All countries are unique in some way, literally any country could say “no other country X”, because all countries have at least something unique about them.
As for the “formed as an appeal to heaven” bit, I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration. Religion was definitely involved, but if the British hadn’t used their government to take so much control over the citizens in the colonies, if they had found the money for their taxes elsewhere, if they had actually listened to the people and tried to make them happy instead of killing them and punishing dissenting opinion, then there wouldn’t have been a revolution. The problem the founders had with the British was mostly not religious in nature. The declaration of independence for instance, basically everything in it is secular. The only mention of anything religious is by mentioning our unalienable/god given rights, and it was the violation of those rights that was the problem, not religious differences.
As for what I mean by “neighbor”, I refer you to Luke 10:29-37:
As for “know”, it’s a broad spectrum ranging from “stranger” to “wife”. I’m asking how well you know them, and it could be anywhere along that spectrum.
So if I understand correctly, you mean to ask how much charity I do?
I paused before, so here’s the remainder of my reply:
I don’t think so. The american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.
You have to be actively seeking out negativity, because it’s nearly impossible to find unless you go looking for it.
The personality type of leftists (admittedly I’m painting with a very broad brush here) is the type of person who feels comfortable when they’re criticizing things. I think it makes them feel smart, or better than whatever (or whoever) they’re criticizing, or maybe the motivation varies from person to person, but whatever the reason, leftists typically seem to find comfort in criticism.
One of the most visible manifestations of this preference is the rise of CRT, which is like a cancer spreading to all of our institutions. CRT is a part of Critical Theory, the broad set of philosophical works lauded by leftists for attempting to “deconstruct” western civilization. To a normal conservative American, the very fact that Critical Theory (CRT included) has the word “critical” in its name indicates that it’s an evil way of thinking, seeking out negative thoughts instead of praising God. The fact that the theory lives up to its disturbing name, and actually uses criticism as its core methodology, only goes to show that this is one of those cases in which it’s valid to judge a book by its cover.
To normal conservative Americans, we know America is blessed because our Lord is God. Our history is chock full of divine providence. When you criticize America, you criticize God. Criticism is an evil way of thinking. That’s not to say we’re perfect, at all, because we’re all sinners. But as we each repent for our individual sins, seek continued favor from God, and work to do God’s will on earth as it’s done in heaven, we know that our fate is in God’s hands, so we choose faith and love where leftist criticizers choose discontent, anger, and hatred.
You are suggesting the death penalty for people’s beliefs. That is antithetical to the principles of our nation.
I certainly wasn’t suggesting lethal injection. I was looking back to our nation’s early practices. Someone might get tarred and feathered if he deserved it, while someone else might be drawn and quartered. We burned witches at the stake. These are the principles of our nation, and our early history that gained us favor with God. So it’s certainly not antithetical to the principles of our nation at all. But it is antithetical to God’s will for us to practice forgiveness, which is why I instead call for compassionate deportation.
Once you permit the government to punish people for their beliefs, you open the flood gates to a tyrannical government.
I do agree with you on this, believe it or not. I enjoy this discussion because I enjoy the free interplay of beliefs. I wouldn’t want you silenced.
But at the same time, I believe there’s a limit to how far it extends. Just as you can’t legally yell “fire” in a crowded theater (remember crowded theaters?), I see the toxic hatred for America as being principally unwelcome.
And I’m not really advocating for the government to do anything, other than say “if somebody hates America then we decline to offer that person any police protection for their natural rights.”
There is simply no evidence for [us each having a natural relationship with God]. And forcing children to partake in religion is a form of forcing religion. There isn’t any way I can explain it other than that, as this is an issue so straightforward as ‘square goes in square hole’.
There’s an abundance of evidence for it, everywhere I look. Our Creator put us here for a purpose. To ignore that fact is evil. We are responsible for raising children to become moral, and that’s impossible without a firm reliance on Christ. Again, you’re either with God or you’re with Satan. To raise a child without emphasizing God’s role in everything we do and think is to raise that child as an unknowing agent of the Beast.
You have to be actively seeking out negativity, because it’s nearly impossible to find unless you go looking for it.
We had an entire civil war about whether black people were actually people, and it was one of the biggest events in our nation’s history. It is far from impossible, and I don’t believe I am seeking out negativity. I think I am seeing things as accurately as I can within my limited power.
The personality type of leftists
I think everything you said here could just as easily apply to conservatives. You spend the entirety of the next two paragraphs criticizing leftists/CRT.
the word “critical” in its name indicates that it’s an evil way of thinking
Critical thinking is a good thing, not a bad one. It is what allows us to see what is wrong so we can make it better. You can’t learn from your mistakes if you think you have none.
Someone might get tarred and feathered if he deserved it, while someone else might be drawn and quartered. We burned witches at the stake.
All of which were horrifying ways to die, cruel and unusual punishments, and therefore an 8th amendment violation.
These are the principles of our nation
You keep saying that these violations of the constitution are the principles of our nation. Doesn’t that seem a little silly to you?
compassionate deportation.
Deportation of U.S. citizens is in no way compassionate.
Just as you can’t legally yell “fire” in a crowded theater (remember crowded theaters?), I see the toxic hatred for America as being principally unwelcome.
The reason you can’t legally yell “fire” is because it causes a direct and present danger because of the potential of a stampede. Hating america for what it currently is and wishing it to be better is nowhere near the same.
“if somebody hates America then we decline to offer that person any police protection for their natural rights.”
And that would make them a target for criminals, which would again be an 8th amendment violation.
There’s an abundance of evidence for it, everywhere I look. Our Creator put us here for a purpose. To ignore that fact is evil.
“Looking everywhere” is not a form of evidence.
and that’s impossible without a firm reliance on Christ.
Under your definition of what’s moral, sure that may be true, but I don’t think you hold a reasonable view of what is moral.
I hit the 5000 character limit! I thought that had been abolished, since we’ve both been writing some seriously long replies. I’ll split my reply in two.
Part 1 of 2:
Probably the Netherlands.
Here’s what comes to mind when I hear about the Netherlands:
I like what little I know of the Dutch language, and I’d like to become fluent someday. It’s a nice language.
They’ve suffered a massive influx of Moroccan immigrants since the 1970s, and those immigrants commit crimes at five times the rate of native Dutch. Source, see table 1.7 on page 17. (Sound familiar?)
As if that wasn’t bad enough, their liberal drug policies turned the place into a drug infested hell-hole. Indeed quite a few US States have been imitating their idiotic legalization of marijuana, and I’m blessed not to live in any of them, but when I drive through them I see the visible impacts: litter, graffiti, and the stench of marijuana everywhere. And I avoid urban areas, so I can’t even imagine how much worse it must be in the cities. I guess you got your wish on that one.
That being said, I’m not trying to bash a country you like, and I’m sure you may be happy there even if I wouldn’t be. I was only offering my perspective as a point of contrast.
and we don’t want to be persecuted for being who we are
If you don’t mind my asking, who are you (broadly speaking)? Do you just mean that you favor leftist political perspectives?
There is one charity like that which comes to mind to me. It’s called the Rainbow Railroad, and it’s for LGBTQ+ people who are trying to escape persecution, who want to move to a place where they will be safe.
Wow, that’s remarkably close to my idea. Thank you! I’d rather help them turn to Christ and straighten out their act, instead of paying to help them to move away, but I’m impressed how similar it is to my idea.
It’s ultimately a disagreement, a huge one sure, but a disagreement. And it’s not domestic terrorism because that involves violence.
You could reduce every criminal perspective to a disagreement with well-adjusted society. Someone who hates a country simply doesn’t belong in that country, whether it’s the US or anywhere else.
Such a person may not have committed any violence yet, but if they hate Americans and the American principles we stand for, then it’s only a matter of time before they do commit violence.
I honestly find it unfathomable that anyone could associate anything negative with the American flag of all things. I mean, across the world it’s a symbol of freedom, but especially here at home, everywhere you look you see American flags because we all love our country.
We can have criticisms, sure — like any conservative, I don’t much like Biden, for example — but it’s not a flag of the White House or Congress; it’s the flag of We the People.
No worries, I understand. I had to create a kbin account because lemmy.world was struggling so much to keep track of this mess of a thread.
Here’s what comes to mind when I hear about the Netherlands:
I think what is most telling about the statistics you bring up is that even with those problems the Netherlands still has a homicide rate 11 times lower than the U.S. (0.6 vs 6.8)
A literal “drug infested hell-hole” as you call it is significantly safer of a place to live. If that isn’t a poignant example of what a terrible state the U.S. is in then I don’t know what is.
If you don’t mind my asking, who are you (broadly speaking)? Do you just mean that you favor leftist political perspectives?
My girlfriend and I are both leftists, bisexual, and I am an atheist. All three demographics that have been historically persecuted under authoritarian states. I intend to be living safely elsewhere if/when the death penalty starts getting handed out for such non-crimes.
You could reduce every criminal perspective to a disagreement with well-adjusted society.
You’ve moved the goal posts to criminal perspective.
Such a person may not have committed any violence yet, but if they hate Americans and the American principles we stand for, then it’s only a matter of time before they do commit violence.
You do not have evidence for this.
I honestly find it unfathomable that anyone could associate anything negative with the American flag of all things.
Like I said in the other thread, ‘the american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.’
I mean, across the world it’s a symbol of freedom
Across the world is is also a symbol of imperialism, oil wars, subversion of democracy, etc. We’ve invaded dozens of countries around the world, and that legacy endures. He’ll, we’ve even firebombed our own citizens in their own neighborhoods. That history is what people think about when they see the flag.
I had to create a kbin account because lemmy.world was struggling so much to keep track of this mess of a thread.
Welcome to kbin! I considered creating a lemmy.world account, but thought I’d give it a day or two to see if it finally sync’d.
Note kbin has a bug: as soon as this conversation spills over to a second page, the notifications to page 2 and beyond will be broken links. You’ll have to search for the text in the notification to find the relevant reply. It’s a known bug.
This thread is quite a mess here too. I considered creating a new magazine just to break this conversation out into a series of new conversations, but that seems excessive. I’m not sure of the best solution.
A literal “drug infested hell-hole” as you call it is significantly safer of a place to live. If that isn’t a poignant example of what a terrible state the U.S. is in then I don’t know what is.
It only seems terrible if you measure according to un-American values. Our American perspective is well captured by the famous Ben Franklin quote:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Our culture has always been a bit dangerous because we’re a free people. We carry firearms to defend ourselves, and we use them as needed. Yes, that results in deaths, and we agree that deaths are undesirable, but as an American I hold liberty as being 100x more important than safety.
My girlfriend and I are both leftists, bisexual, and I am an atheist.
Earlier in our conversation I thought you were a Christian, because of what you said about idolatry. But I find it completely believable that you’re an atheist, because as we dug into the topic, you exhibited a complete lack of understanding of what idolatry is all about.
You are not “bisexual” if you’re a man with a girlfriend, unless you cheat on her. You may experience evil temptations to sin, but indeed we all do. The nature of our temptations varies according to our weaknesses, but we’re all tempted. If you turn to Christ, you’ll be able to pray to be shielded from your temptations, and prayer works.
I intend to be living safely elsewhere if/when the death penalty starts getting handed out for such non-crimes.
I find this beyond ridiculous. I completely support your moving to a place where you’d fit in better, and you’d be happier, as we’ve already established — but the US is so left of center that there’s no way anything like this could happen here. Death penalty for being leftist, bisexual, and/or atheist? In the US? Are you joking?
You’ve moved the goal posts to criminal perspective.
Not really. I was making a point that it’s not a matter of silencing an alternative viewpoint when that viewpoint is essentially pro-criminal.
You do not have evidence for [the idea that people who hate America and Americans are apt to commit violence].
True, but that only reflects the fact that I don’t make a habit of compiling evidence to support my points in future discussions. But I don’t see how you could disagree with this. People who love express love towards those who they love; people who hate express hatred towards those who they hate.
Across the world is is also a symbol of [a list of bad stuff]. That history is what people think about when they see the flag.
I’m sure that’s true of some people. Like anything, it is what you make of it. But you need to cherry-pick your list of bad things from a vast sea of lovable good things. I’m not trying to pretend that we’re perfect, but why would you want to focus on the tiny number of negative things instead of giving glory to God and focusing on all His copious blessings? Don’t you find it unbearably depressing to maintain such an irrationally negative disposition?
It only seems terrible if you measure according to un-American values. Our American perspective is well captured by the famous Ben Franklin quote:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
The Netherlands ranks 11th in freedom whereas the U.S. ranks 15th on the world freedom index. So I would have the best of both worlds, more freedom, more safety.
Our culture has always been a bit dangerous because we’re a free people.
It’s because we are an individualist society. We simply do not care for the well-being of others as well as other nations do.
Earlier in our conversation I thought you were a Christian, because of what you said about idolatry. But I find it completely believable that you’re an atheist, because as we dug into the topic, you exhibited a complete lack of understanding of what idolatry is all about.
I used to be a christian, and I will refer you back to the time when the SCOTUS ruled in favor of jehovah’s witnesses that the pledge of allegiance was idolatry:
You are not “bisexual” if you’re a man with a girlfriend, unless you cheat on her.
Sexuality labels such as that one refer to one’s sexual attraction, not the status of their current relationship. I am attracted to both men and women, and so by definition I am bisexual.
You may experience evil temptations to sin, but indeed we all do.
I watch both heterosexual and homosexual content, and I enjoy both. Not everybody does that. I’ve been with both sexes, not everybody does that.
If you turn to Christ, you’ll be able to pray to be shielded from your temptations, and prayer works.
I’m happy just the way I am. And in my experience, prayer never works. Over the years I’ve talked with christians, countless of them have prayed for me to change, to stop being an atheist/leftist/bisexual/etc. None of it has changed a thing.
the US is so left of center that there’s no way anything like this could happen here. Death penalty for being leftist, bisexual, and/or atheist? In the US? Are you joking?
The U.S. is a right wing, authoritarian state, not a left one. It’s not an objectively measurable thing, because politics is such a messy thing to study, but on the world stage we are in no way a leftist country.
Death penalty for being leftist, bisexual, and/or atheist? In the US? Are you joking?
The U.S. has been embracing authoritarianism for a while now. LGBTQ+ persecution is at an all time high, we almost had an election hijacked, the public is spied on by the government, xenophobia is on the rise, hate crimes are on the rise, there is talk of implementing laws to disenfranchise voters. I could go on with all the authoritarian things that have been happening, but I"ll keep it brief for the sake of time.
Authoritarianism, and fascism specifically are self feeding. 1920s Germany wasn’t great, and it kept self feeding until the 30s and 40s. I worry the same thing will happen here.
But you need to cherry-pick your list of bad things from a vast sea of lovable good things.
Don’t you find it unbearably depressing to maintain such an irrationally negative disposition?
I don’t think I am cherry picking or being irrational. The sea of good things the U.S. has done is just as vast as the despicable things we’ve done. And I would rather be truthfully depressed than happy and oblivious.
That’s not how the legal system treats it. Being in the country illegal is counted as one crime.
The government deporting people based on political opinions like this is antithetical to the founding principles of our nation, and is un-american. It’s also a violation of the first amendment.
I’m sorry but I can’t trust that when you treat people who don’t respect the flag as a moral failures.
Opening prayer and the allegiance itself leaves the wrong impression. People should not be forced to partake in another’s religion, nor should they be forced to worship the flag/the country.
I’m aware. The Left has a voice in the legal system, and as a result it’s soft on crime, and especially crime related to this discussion. But in truth, an illegal immigrant cannot even brush his teeth legally if he does so on American soil.
“Love it or leave it” is a traditionally American patriotic slogan. It’s simple but true, and it applies to all things in life, not just the country. But when it comes to the country, it should be policy. I don’t favor kicking out any legitimate citizen who recognizes this is the best country in the world, and would gladly fight and die to defend it. But for the leftists who hate America and want to change it to become more like some other country, they really need to pack up and move to that other country. There’s nothing un-American about saying Americans ought to be American at heart.
Not really, because I wouldn’t want to take away anyone’s right to freely express their position, even if that means criticizing America. They have every right to cuss up a storm while they spew their hatred of everything American, while I help them pack, and escort them to the airport.
That fact makes you certain I worship the flag? That doesn’t make any sense. I stand up for my neighbors, and by extension my country, and by extension the cloth that symbolizes it. That’s not worship. That’s just following what Jesus said is the second most important commandment.
It’s worthwhile to look at the background of the '62 ban on school prayer. Protestants read from the KJV, and Catholics didn’t like the KJV. The argument was all about which translation to use in public schools. SCOTUS decided that the only way to solve the problem was to choose no Bible at all.
It’s also worthwhile to consider the Crusades, which were successful by some measures, but are also widely criticized for valid reasons. One of those reasons is that it’s truly impossible to force anyone to believe in a religion if they don’t want to. And it’s counterproductive to try.
So I agree that people shouldn’t be forced to partake in religious practices against their will. But that just means we should leave Protestant vs Catholic fights to other forums, and prayers in public forums like schools should be generic. Whatever religion Americans hold, we can safely assume it’s some form of Christianity, with a slim possibility of Judaism in some places.
When it comes to satanists, atheists, or anyone else who rejects the God for which America was founded, they should be given a genuine chance to repent and accept God before being politely deported.
And as for being “forced to worship the flag/the country”, again, the pledge of allegiance just says “I promise to love my neighbor.” If someone can’t pledge to do that, you’ve got to wonder why they live here.
That’s not true. I hate to repeat myself, but that’s not how the judicial branch treats it. To treat brushing your teeth in this manner to be illegal would be a violation of the 5th amendment of the constitution, because that would be double jeopardy. And this isn’t a thing the left is responsible for, because the left did not write the constitution.
And it’s one that is a great disservice to this country.
I would if I could. But that costs thousands of dollars, and that’s assuming you find a good country that will take you in at all. Your expectation for people to up and move is unrealistic given the reality that it isn’t possible for a third to half of Americans to immigrate to Europe.
You’re suggesting upwards of 100 million people up and move to another country. That isn’t realistic, nor is it an effective solution to the problem.
The United States needs to be able to change instead of just kicking people out, and that’s why the founding fathers specifically built our country to be able to accommodate change.
That’s not what you said though:
“Anyone who has any kind of negative association with the American flag needs to get out of the US, ASAP, and I do support deportation for them.”
Deporting american citizens because they disagree with you is un-american. And it’s also a violation of the first amendment.
The government forcing people out of the country because of their expressed opinion/position is a direct violation of the first amendment. The government CANNOT punish people for their opinions, and deporting them is a form of punishment.
If you said the same thing about Jesus as you did the flag I would think the same about you worshiping Jesus.
Prayer in schools even if generic is still a form of forcing religion upon others.
This is the same un-american violation of the first amendment as above.
That’s not at all what it says.
I acquiesce this is technically correct. I didn’t really mean it like that, exactly, but it’s useless to belabor the point because we’re beating a dead horse.
Interesting. Where would you move, out of curiosity?
At times in the past I’ve mulled over starting a non-profit for the purpose of funding politically-oriented moves like this, where funds are granted to people of all political persuasions to relocate to a more politically appropriate place, and where funds are donated by people wanting to help accelerate that sorting process.
I wouldn’t really start that non-profit, because ultimately it would distract from legitimately good charities, but it does cross my mind now and then.
Yes, well this is also one of the reasons why all of my calls for deportation are unrealistic.
Agreed, but disagreeing with me is not the problem. I enjoy open disagreement, as I’m mostly enjoying this conversation with you. We can learn from engaging with people of differing perspectives.
When you talk about people who harbor a negative association with the American flag, though, that’s far beyond a disagreement. You’re talking about domestic terrorists there. They’re absolutely not American at heart, so why would we allow them to live here? These are people who are likely to commit mass murder at the drop of a hat. I imagine there’s probably less than a dozen such people nationwide.
Not whatsoever. There are a zillion denominations and factions of Christianity, and they’re all welcome here, no matter how zany they are. Moreover, prayer is an open dialog with God, so almost all Christian prayers are fairly applicable to Jews and Muslims too, if they overlook a few words. That’s the broadest acceptable spectrum of every religion in America. Bear in mind that we have the freedom of religion, not freedom from it.
You’re being overly literal. I know what the words to the Pledge are, thank you. I just recited it earlier today in church. What I meant was that it ultimately tells us to love our neighbors. That’s the root meaning behind it.
If I could move anywhere? Probably the Netherlands. They have walkable cities, good job, good healthcare, a healthy respect for the environment. They have many of the policies I would like to see happen here, and they are the happiest nation on Earth if I recall.
In reality? I will probably be moving to Costa Rica, at the very least for when I retire. My girlfriend is there and the cost of living is a decent bit cheaper there. When we move depends on a lot of things, but it is currently our backup. We are pretty damn terrified of the authoritarian/fascist policies that are becoming popularized in the U.S., and we don’t want to be persecuted for being who we are. So if things get particularly bad we might just end up getting a greencard wedding is Costa Rica.
There is one charity like that which comes to mind to me. It’s called the Rainbow Railroad, and it’s for LGBTQ+ people who are trying to escape persecution, who want to move to a place where they will be safe.
I suspect you would not be a fan of it though.
So on a side note, one thing I’m confused about is that you think people who want to see drastic change in America, who perceive it in a negative light, you think they should move or be deported. Yet when it comes to cartels, you think people should fight to the death to get rid of cartels and corruption.
Why is it in one case the answer is deportation/moving but in the other case it is fighting to the death?
It’s ultimately a disagreement, a huge one sure, but a disagreement. And it’s not domestic terrorism because that involves violence.
Because the alternative is persecuting them for their beliefs, which is un-American and a 1st amendment violation.
You have no evidence for that, but I would actually suspect it’s the opposite, or at least a similar crime rate as the rest.
And the reason for my suspicion is that most mass shootings are done by straight white men, and most domestic terrorism is right wing motivated. Neither of which aligns with the demographics that view the flag in a negative light. The nature of domestic terrorist attacks differs quite a bit between left vs right as well.
https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/public-mass-shootings-database-amasses-details-half-century-us-mass-shootings
https://www.csis.org/analysis/pushed-extremes-domestic-terrorism-amid-polarization-and-protest
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/radical-right-vs-radical-left-terrorist-theory-and-threat
It’s considerably more than that.
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/06/29/how-americans-view-flags-and-symbols-poll
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/05/05/5-national-pride-and-shame/
https://www.npr.org/2020/10/12/922272134/we-asked-americans-how-they-feel-about-the-u-s-flag-it-got-interesting
From the first one, it would work out to roughly 30 million Americans who overall view the flag negatively. And that’s before you count the people who have a mixed view of it.
It doesn’t matter if it covers all religions because it’s generic, it’s still religious and forcing it upon children is forcing religion.
It’s logically impossible to have one without the other. If the state has the ability to force you to partake in religion then we have no freedom of religion. They are one in the same.
I don’t think that’s true. The meaning to mean quite clear is limited to this: By reciting the pledge you are promising loyalty to the state, its primary symbol (the flag). The last bit is about affirming the ideals of our country. The under god part of the ideals was in response to the red scare, the one nation indivisible in response to the civil war, etc.
It’s meant to be a patriotic, unifying/rallying cry. But it comes off as incredibly dystopian and creepy.
It doesn’t mention anything about our neighbors.
And to kinda bring up a new point, the Supreme Court had a ruling for Jehova’s Witnesses saying that their children couldn’t be forced to do the pledge because it constituted worship of a false idol, the flag.
And I agree with that ruling. People shouldn’t be forced to do the pledge. Forced speech is a violation of the 1st amendment.
If the government can force you to say something then we are missing a critical component of free speech. The same concept applies to freedom of religion/freedom from religion.
Part 2 of 2:
While that’s interesting, you’d need to be far outside the traditional political spectrum to think anything negative about the American flag.
Please understand that I suggest deportation because it’s by far and away the most compassionate approach, as what’s truly deserved is far more violent and lethal, but we can rise above that.
Thank you for the links. It’s clear we’ve allowed the problem to fester for too long. We’ll see those numbers quickly return to a natural 100% “love it” if we enforce “love it or leave it”.
Um, no. We all have a natural relationship with God, and that has nothing to do with any specific religion. We can raise our children in our faith tradition, while educating them about how other denominations disagree on various topics, and allowing them to ultimately choose their own style of worship and details of belief.
The state doesn’t have that ability, and neither does anyone else. But if someone is opposed to God, then they’re opposed to American values, and they should be treated as such.
That’s not forcing anyone to partake in religion; it’s just acknowledging that we’re a Christian country at heart, and we always have been, founded on Christian values, and we’re not going to enforce any particular flavor of Christianity, nor are we even going to enforce that people practice Christianity at all, but you certainly must favor God because otherwise you favor Satan.
That’s wholly incorrect. We tend to harbor plenty of objections to our politicians, on both sides of the aisle. We fly our flags anyway because they’re our flags, not the politicians’ flags. Politicians are our employees.
It’s meant to stand for the American people and American values. If you find that dystopian or creepy, I have to wonder if you know your neighbors very well. Honest question: do you?
I didn’t get the first part, nor the other thread if you replied to it. It seems we are hitting the limit of kbin/lemmy at the moment with the bugs it currently has.
I don’t think so. The american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.
You are suggesting the death penalty for people’s beliefs. That is antithetical to the principles of our nation.
And it would be immensely harmful to the country to do that. Once you permit the government to punish people for their beliefs, you open the flood gates to a tyrannical government.
There is simply no evidence for that. And forcing children to partake in religion is a form of forcing religion. There isn’t any way I can explain it other than that, as this is an issue so straightforward as ‘square goes in square hole’.
That is objectively false.
“As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion" ~ Treaty of Tripoli; initiated under President George Washington, 1796, signed into law by President John Adams, 1797, ratified unanimously by the Senate, 1797, published in full in all 13 states, with no record of complaint or dissent.
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.” –Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” –James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774
“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?”– James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795
“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people… A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785 .
“He had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term– he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects.” –Supreme Court Justice David Davis, on Abraham Lincoln
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” –First Amendment, Constitution of the United States
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible…Some books on Deism fell into my hands…It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist.” -Benjamin Franklin, “Toward the Mystery” (autobiography)
"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice…he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers…Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did. -Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”- Thomas Jefferson
“There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.”- Thomas Jefferson
“Lighthouses are more useful than churches.”- Ben Franklin7. “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”- Ben Franklin
“In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it.”- Ben Franklin
“This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it”- John Adams
“Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.”- Thomas Paine
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”-Thomas Paine
“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”- Thomas Paine
“The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.”- Abraham Lincoln
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”- James Madison
“In no instance have the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.” ― James Madison
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. " ~ Thomas Jefferson
It’s a pledge (promise) of allegiance (loyalty). My description of the pledge is accurate.
I find it dystopian and creepy because it’s the same sort of thing that North Korea does, China does, and Nazi Germany did. Forcing people to swear loyalty to the state is a gross misuse of the power of the government.
That depends upon what you mean by “neighbors”, and “know”. Sorry, that’s just a very broad question. Can you elaborate?
Do these work?
I’ll pause there for now.
Unpause, part 2 of 2:
Did they teach you to keep a file of such quotes in your atheist training seminars? If your goal was to overwhelm me, congrats, you succeeded. This conversation is already so long and unwieldy that there’s no way I’m going to address each of these. Suffice it to say that you’re wrong about this, and a suitable reply would be book length. And I’m not talking about a small or medium-sized book.
I will just briefly address the first one to mention that it’s from an international treaty with a Muslim nation to protect American lives. We told them what they wanted to hear, to get them to agree. So goes international treaties. They’re rhetoric devised to achieve political goals, and they mean nothing beyond that. Yes, we assured Muslims that our government is not founded on Christianity, and if you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Each of these quotes you offered either has a similarly simple rebuttal, or is actually correct without implying what you think it implies. Some of them are taken out of important context. I’ll leave it at that.
Listen, we agree that North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany are all bad countries, and we wouldn’t want to imitate them. So let’s at least take a moment to appreciate our agreement.
As for the alleged similarity of our Pledge, it’s only superficially similar in that citizens are naturally loyal to their countries, right or wrong. Yes, the Bellamy Salute looked a whole lot like our enemies’ patriotic gestures, but even though that similarity was superficial, we changed it.
The elephant in the room is that the US is at heart nothing whatsoever like any other country, including the ethnostates of North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany. We’re so dissimilar from other countries that it’s wrong to compare us in almost any way at all. No other country in the world was founded in an act of revolution formed as an appeal to heaven.
As for what I mean by “neighbor”, I refer you to Luke 10:29-37:
As for “know”, it’s a broad spectrum ranging from “stranger” to “wife”. I’m asking how well you know them, and it could be anywhere along that spectrum.
There were no such seminars, and my intention is not to overwhelm. It’s simply silly to say that the united states is a christian nation when the founders were very clear that it wasn’t.
The reasons why it was signed isn’t relevant given the supremacy clause of the united states which states that treaties signed by congress/the president are part of US law. The treaty is therefore the law of the land, and it says that we were not founded as a christian nation. The law says we are not a christian nation. The constitution effectively says so as well with the establishment clause.
I’d argue it’s more than superficial because it is forced upon impressionable, young minds. But even if it was only superficial, it is sufficiently bad enough of an image to be creepy.
They were/are pretty much identical. And despite the change, the rest of the creepiness of it persists.
There is this sales tactic that some companies use, they’ll say something along the lines of “Nobody has a bigger selection than us!” or “We have the highest rated customer service in our industry”. They say some thing that they are technically correct about, but it misses the bigger picture. All countries are unique in some way, literally any country could say “no other country X”, because all countries have at least something unique about them.
As for the “formed as an appeal to heaven” bit, I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration. Religion was definitely involved, but if the British hadn’t used their government to take so much control over the citizens in the colonies, if they had found the money for their taxes elsewhere, if they had actually listened to the people and tried to make them happy instead of killing them and punishing dissenting opinion, then there wouldn’t have been a revolution. The problem the founders had with the British was mostly not religious in nature. The declaration of independence for instance, basically everything in it is secular. The only mention of anything religious is by mentioning our unalienable/god given rights, and it was the violation of those rights that was the problem, not religious differences.
So if I understand correctly, you mean to ask how much charity I do?
Unpause, part 1 of 2:
I paused before, so here’s the remainder of my reply:
You have to be actively seeking out negativity, because it’s nearly impossible to find unless you go looking for it.
The personality type of leftists (admittedly I’m painting with a very broad brush here) is the type of person who feels comfortable when they’re criticizing things. I think it makes them feel smart, or better than whatever (or whoever) they’re criticizing, or maybe the motivation varies from person to person, but whatever the reason, leftists typically seem to find comfort in criticism.
One of the most visible manifestations of this preference is the rise of CRT, which is like a cancer spreading to all of our institutions. CRT is a part of Critical Theory, the broad set of philosophical works lauded by leftists for attempting to “deconstruct” western civilization. To a normal conservative American, the very fact that Critical Theory (CRT included) has the word “critical” in its name indicates that it’s an evil way of thinking, seeking out negative thoughts instead of praising God. The fact that the theory lives up to its disturbing name, and actually uses criticism as its core methodology, only goes to show that this is one of those cases in which it’s valid to judge a book by its cover.
To normal conservative Americans, we know America is blessed because our Lord is God. Our history is chock full of divine providence. When you criticize America, you criticize God. Criticism is an evil way of thinking. That’s not to say we’re perfect, at all, because we’re all sinners. But as we each repent for our individual sins, seek continued favor from God, and work to do God’s will on earth as it’s done in heaven, we know that our fate is in God’s hands, so we choose faith and love where leftist criticizers choose discontent, anger, and hatred.
I certainly wasn’t suggesting lethal injection. I was looking back to our nation’s early practices. Someone might get tarred and feathered if he deserved it, while someone else might be drawn and quartered. We burned witches at the stake. These are the principles of our nation, and our early history that gained us favor with God. So it’s certainly not antithetical to the principles of our nation at all. But it is antithetical to God’s will for us to practice forgiveness, which is why I instead call for compassionate deportation.
I do agree with you on this, believe it or not. I enjoy this discussion because I enjoy the free interplay of beliefs. I wouldn’t want you silenced.
But at the same time, I believe there’s a limit to how far it extends. Just as you can’t legally yell “fire” in a crowded theater (remember crowded theaters?), I see the toxic hatred for America as being principally unwelcome.
And I’m not really advocating for the government to do anything, other than say “if somebody hates America then we decline to offer that person any police protection for their natural rights.”
There’s an abundance of evidence for it, everywhere I look. Our Creator put us here for a purpose. To ignore that fact is evil. We are responsible for raising children to become moral, and that’s impossible without a firm reliance on Christ. Again, you’re either with God or you’re with Satan. To raise a child without emphasizing God’s role in everything we do and think is to raise that child as an unknowing agent of the Beast.
We had an entire civil war about whether black people were actually people, and it was one of the biggest events in our nation’s history. It is far from impossible, and I don’t believe I am seeking out negativity. I think I am seeing things as accurately as I can within my limited power.
I think everything you said here could just as easily apply to conservatives. You spend the entirety of the next two paragraphs criticizing leftists/CRT.
Critical thinking is a good thing, not a bad one. It is what allows us to see what is wrong so we can make it better. You can’t learn from your mistakes if you think you have none.
All of which were horrifying ways to die, cruel and unusual punishments, and therefore an 8th amendment violation.
You keep saying that these violations of the constitution are the principles of our nation. Doesn’t that seem a little silly to you?
Deportation of U.S. citizens is in no way compassionate.
The reason you can’t legally yell “fire” is because it causes a direct and present danger because of the potential of a stampede. Hating america for what it currently is and wishing it to be better is nowhere near the same.
And that would make them a target for criminals, which would again be an 8th amendment violation.
“Looking everywhere” is not a form of evidence.
Under your definition of what’s moral, sure that may be true, but I don’t think you hold a reasonable view of what is moral.
I hit the 5000 character limit! I thought that had been abolished, since we’ve both been writing some seriously long replies. I’ll split my reply in two.
Part 1 of 2:
Here’s what comes to mind when I hear about the Netherlands:
That being said, I’m not trying to bash a country you like, and I’m sure you may be happy there even if I wouldn’t be. I was only offering my perspective as a point of contrast.
If you don’t mind my asking, who are you (broadly speaking)? Do you just mean that you favor leftist political perspectives?
Wow, that’s remarkably close to my idea. Thank you! I’d rather help them turn to Christ and straighten out their act, instead of paying to help them to move away, but I’m impressed how similar it is to my idea.
You could reduce every criminal perspective to a disagreement with well-adjusted society. Someone who hates a country simply doesn’t belong in that country, whether it’s the US or anywhere else.
Such a person may not have committed any violence yet, but if they hate Americans and the American principles we stand for, then it’s only a matter of time before they do commit violence.
I honestly find it unfathomable that anyone could associate anything negative with the American flag of all things. I mean, across the world it’s a symbol of freedom, but especially here at home, everywhere you look you see American flags because we all love our country.
We can have criticisms, sure — like any conservative, I don’t much like Biden, for example — but it’s not a flag of the White House or Congress; it’s the flag of We the People.
No worries, I understand. I had to create a kbin account because lemmy.world was struggling so much to keep track of this mess of a thread.
I think what is most telling about the statistics you bring up is that even with those problems the Netherlands still has a homicide rate 11 times lower than the U.S. (0.6 vs 6.8)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
A literal “drug infested hell-hole” as you call it is significantly safer of a place to live. If that isn’t a poignant example of what a terrible state the U.S. is in then I don’t know what is.
My girlfriend and I are both leftists, bisexual, and I am an atheist. All three demographics that have been historically persecuted under authoritarian states. I intend to be living safely elsewhere if/when the death penalty starts getting handed out for such non-crimes.
You’ve moved the goal posts to criminal perspective.
You do not have evidence for this.
Like I said in the other thread, ‘the american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.’
Across the world is is also a symbol of imperialism, oil wars, subversion of democracy, etc. We’ve invaded dozens of countries around the world, and that legacy endures. He’ll, we’ve even firebombed our own citizens in their own neighborhoods. That history is what people think about when they see the flag.
Welcome to kbin! I considered creating a lemmy.world account, but thought I’d give it a day or two to see if it finally sync’d.
Note kbin has a bug: as soon as this conversation spills over to a second page, the notifications to page 2 and beyond will be broken links. You’ll have to search for the text in the notification to find the relevant reply. It’s a known bug.
This thread is quite a mess here too. I considered creating a new magazine just to break this conversation out into a series of new conversations, but that seems excessive. I’m not sure of the best solution.
It only seems terrible if you measure according to un-American values. Our American perspective is well captured by the famous Ben Franklin quote:
Our culture has always been a bit dangerous because we’re a free people. We carry firearms to defend ourselves, and we use them as needed. Yes, that results in deaths, and we agree that deaths are undesirable, but as an American I hold liberty as being 100x more important than safety.
Earlier in our conversation I thought you were a Christian, because of what you said about idolatry. But I find it completely believable that you’re an atheist, because as we dug into the topic, you exhibited a complete lack of understanding of what idolatry is all about.
You are not “bisexual” if you’re a man with a girlfriend, unless you cheat on her. You may experience evil temptations to sin, but indeed we all do. The nature of our temptations varies according to our weaknesses, but we’re all tempted. If you turn to Christ, you’ll be able to pray to be shielded from your temptations, and prayer works.
I find this beyond ridiculous. I completely support your moving to a place where you’d fit in better, and you’d be happier, as we’ve already established — but the US is so left of center that there’s no way anything like this could happen here. Death penalty for being leftist, bisexual, and/or atheist? In the US? Are you joking?
Not really. I was making a point that it’s not a matter of silencing an alternative viewpoint when that viewpoint is essentially pro-criminal.
True, but that only reflects the fact that I don’t make a habit of compiling evidence to support my points in future discussions. But I don’t see how you could disagree with this. People who love express love towards those who they love; people who hate express hatred towards those who they hate.
I’m sure that’s true of some people. Like anything, it is what you make of it. But you need to cherry-pick your list of bad things from a vast sea of lovable good things. I’m not trying to pretend that we’re perfect, but why would you want to focus on the tiny number of negative things instead of giving glory to God and focusing on all His copious blessings? Don’t you find it unbearably depressing to maintain such an irrationally negative disposition?
Thank you for the warning!
The Netherlands ranks 11th in freedom whereas the U.S. ranks 15th on the world freedom index. So I would have the best of both worlds, more freedom, more safety.
It’s because we are an individualist society. We simply do not care for the well-being of others as well as other nations do.
I used to be a christian, and I will refer you back to the time when the SCOTUS ruled in favor of jehovah’s witnesses that the pledge of allegiance was idolatry:
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-latest-controversy-about-under-god-in-the-pledge-of-allegiance
It’s not something I just made up.
Sexuality labels such as that one refer to one’s sexual attraction, not the status of their current relationship. I am attracted to both men and women, and so by definition I am bisexual.
I watch both heterosexual and homosexual content, and I enjoy both. Not everybody does that. I’ve been with both sexes, not everybody does that.
I’m happy just the way I am. And in my experience, prayer never works. Over the years I’ve talked with christians, countless of them have prayed for me to change, to stop being an atheist/leftist/bisexual/etc. None of it has changed a thing.
The U.S. is a right wing, authoritarian state, not a left one. It’s not an objectively measurable thing, because politics is such a messy thing to study, but on the world stage we are in no way a leftist country.
The U.S. has been embracing authoritarianism for a while now. LGBTQ+ persecution is at an all time high, we almost had an election hijacked, the public is spied on by the government, xenophobia is on the rise, hate crimes are on the rise, there is talk of implementing laws to disenfranchise voters. I could go on with all the authoritarian things that have been happening, but I"ll keep it brief for the sake of time.
Authoritarianism, and fascism specifically are self feeding. 1920s Germany wasn’t great, and it kept self feeding until the 30s and 40s. I worry the same thing will happen here.
I don’t think I am cherry picking or being irrational. The sea of good things the U.S. has done is just as vast as the despicable things we’ve done. And I would rather be truthfully depressed than happy and oblivious.