How would people have read that math in the diamond?! And how would math transmit moral values? I feel like this leaves the realm of mathematics, lol. You complain about the best way to do things in this world (despite the time and alterations) but provide no alternative. If God wanted us to be perfect, he would’ve made us without free will, just automatons following moral law, but he gave us free will and wants us to be good, as there’s no perfection in this world. The direction and base idea of things like the TC are undeniable and easily understood, but if one wants to rationalize and deform the words therein they can, one can be as silly as possible if one wants to. If you want to rationalize murder even though they told you not to kill, or rationalize cheating even though they told you not to lust over women you’re not married to, well, that’s on you (didn’t a Brit king create a whole religion just to cheat?). And God will remind you of what you did and deal with you accordingly, of course. But no one can, in good faith, both say they believe in the TC, for example, and God’s judgment and actively go against it. You can lie, to yourself and others, about it but you can’t do that in good faith. Who would rather taste Hell than not?
And how are people not being “real people” a thing? Where does God say some people are people and others aren’t? Why is murdering an innocent adult okay but not an innocent child? What? Which divine mandate? I’m only speaking for monotheism, best encapsulated in the Qur’an, but again, I don’t see “God chose me so I can be immoral” in the Mosaic laws, in Ecclesiastes or the message of Jesus. And the Qur’an is pretty detailed when it comes to war and how it’s even better to release prisoners (some societies take no prisoners but it’s better not to kill in Islam and all of Abrahamic monotheism), even if they initiated the war. And all you’ve given me is examples of heresy, not belief. Come on, man. Of course these people exist, and maybe that was the spin they used to convince others but they fully knew what was up (or they also lied to themselves a bit and only partially knew what was up, which is why it’s a good policy to be honest), that’s why they had to spin it in the first place. You can’t both believe, truly, that your soul is going to Hell for committing grave transgressions and also commit them, unless you’re actually insane and want to be deservedly tortured for your own misdeeds forever. Most people are not crazy, though.
How would people have read that math in the diamond?!
You mean , how would i describe the process of doing the thing i specifically said was guesswork outside of my expertise and not relevant because it was referencing something never posited ?
I wouldn’t, that’s what area experts are for.
And how would math transmit moral values? I feel like this leaves the realm of mathematics, lol.
Interesting questions, for a conversation where the answer are relevant to the discussion.
You complain about the best way to do things in this world (despite the time and alterations) but provide no alternative.
Didn’t happen, read it again.
If God wanted us to be perfect, he would’ve made us without free will, just automatons following moral law, but he gave us free will and wants us to be good, as there’s no perfection in this world.
Rampant speculation and irrelevant.
So i see this big wall of text, to save time I’m just going to refer to the shorthand for you replies (that I’ve already mentioned) and possibly direct fallacies, if they apply, if something new comes up I’ll address that directly.
he direction and base idea of things like the TC are undeniable and easily understood, but if one wants to rationalize and deform the words therein they can, one can be as silly as possible if one wants to.
“My interpretation is correct"
“I’m surprised you don’t understand”
If you want to rationalize murder even though they told you not to kill, or rationalize cheating even though they told you not to lust over women you’re not married to, well, that’s on you (didn’t a Brit king create a whole religion just to cheat?).
“My interpretation is correct"
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
But no one can, in good faith, both say they believe in the TC, for example, and God’s judgment and actively go against it. You can lie, to yourself and others, about it but you can’t do that in good faith. Who would rather taste Hell than not?
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
“i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct””
And how are people not being “real people” a thing? Where does God say some people are people and others aren’t?
Not an actual thing i claimed or wish to, i said there are people who think/have though that, some of them bringing that into their religious doctrine.
I don’t buy you not understanding the concept of slavery, caste or any of the other systems that lead to personhood being revoked in some peoples minds.
I’m going to add “Feigned Ignorance” to the list of autoreplies
Just in case, there was a big big war about this not so long ago.
Why is murdering an innocent adult okay but not an innocent child?
Not what i said, read it again.
What? Which divine mandate?
Any
I’m only speaking for monotheism, best encapsulated in the Qur’an, but again, I don’t see “God chose me so I can be immoral” in the Mosaic laws, in Ecclesiastes or the message of Jesus.
“Feigned Ignorance”
You know that’s not what I’m saying, there wouldn’t need to be an explicit entry about something there just has to be enough room for someone to interpret something that way.
And the Qur’an is pretty detailed when it comes to war and how it’s even better to release prisoners (some societies take no prisoners but it’s better not to kill in Islam and all of Abrahamic monotheism), even if they initiated the war.
“Feigned Ignorance”
Again, you know this but what is actually written is not the problem i’ve been referencing(mostly), it’s the room for interpretation.
And all you’ve given me is examples of heresy, not belief.
oh damn, got you a trifecta, congrats
“My interpretation is correct"
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
Come on, man. Of course these people exist
Nearly there…so close…
and maybe that was the spin they used to convince others but they fully knew what was up (or they also lied to themselves a bit and only partially knew what was up, which is why it’s a good policy to be honest), that’s why they had to spin it in the first place.
Aww , so close, yet so far.
But this in an interesting segue into a topic i’m sure you’ll have lots of fun dodging.
How important is intent.
If a “bad apple” misleads people into murdering for the “greater good” do those people get a pass because they thought they were doing the right thing ?
How about if they unwittingly (but directly) contribute to the murder of someone ?
You can’t both believe, truly, that your soul is going to Hell for committing grave transgressions and also commit them, unless you’re actually insane and want to be deservedly tortured for your own misdeeds forever. Most people are not crazy, though.
“My interpretation is correct”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
You absolutely can, it’s a shitty system full l of logical loopholes.
A big one being, “fuck it I’m going to hell forever anyway, what’s one more sin added to the list, where are they going to put me, super hell?”.
Depends on the circumstances but yes, intent is what matters the most, it’s just harder to see than actions. It’s important to double check the info before you go around murdering innocents, lol. But I assume many of these just wanted the money that came with it and said “fuck morals, fuck relevant information”. The Americans who signed up to kill brown people in the Middle East in the early 00s fall into this category, for example. Would they be exempted? Of course not, they like everyone else had the duty to act right, and they like everyone else knew murder was wrong (in the information era who can claim ignorance when it comes to the guidance of the prophets? Everything is freely available online, you either care or you don’t) and they still went ahead for whatever reason. Should’ve double checked! But they weren’t too stupid to get it, just intellectually lazy and overall uncaring, and disregarding that responsibility and then committing atrocities is enough to land you in Hell, especially if you never repent. Will the leaders have a harsher sentence? Definitely.
Again, you keep on mentioning viewpoints but you still haven’t provided a single one you stand by that I don’t and that directly contradicts the TC (whilst also being morally right, ofc, I doubt you want to pronounce yourself a villain). You yourself agree with them besides the ones that involve the Creator… And how could I interpret 1 as 0 unless I’m just blind and my opinion should be disregarded? How could I interpret “don’t kill” as “kill if they’re brown/if they have things you like/if you feel like it”? How can anyone? Which interpretation of the TC can give you something that goes squarely against the literal meanings of these phrases ?
I really don’t know what you’re saying and I’m not feigning ignorance, I think you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of people and reality. You believe in gravity (and something in your tummy feels funny when you look from a balcony on the 12th floor), I believe in God, His judgement, the moral duty He has imposed on us and Heaven and Hell as our final destinations (and I also feel something when I transgress, everyone does at the beginning, then they either learn to pay attention to it or ignore it). And just like you wouldn’t jump out of a building unless you lost your mind because you would end up flattened, so would I and everyone on my side not commit great transgressions because we know what will happen. Perhaps you have a moment of insanity, idk, for whatever biological reason something in your brain just malfunctions… well, as soon as you come down from it you’d greatly repent your actions, make amends, seek solutions for this insanity, maybe even get yourself locked up so you don’t do it again! But, again, most people don’t just randomly murder or rape when their whole lives they didn’t even punch anyone. And those who do and claim to believe in something that disagrees with it, like the TC, are simply lying about their beliefs. They have and they will continue doing it because some people are just too dumb to realize it and they have no morals so it’s completely win-win for them.
Depends on the circumstances but yes, intent is what matters the most, it’s just harder to see than actions. It’s important to double check the info before you go around murdering innocents, lol.
“I said lol, because I’m so right it’s laughable”
Ok, i was wrong here, you didn’t dodge entirely, you acknowledged intent as a thing here and then completely ignored it in your following replies.
But I assume many of these just wanted the money that came with it and said “fuck morals, fuck relevant information”.
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
“My morality is the only correct morality”
Again, ignoring that there are people that believe what they are doing is just and moral.
The Americans who signed up to kill brown people in the Middle East in the early 00s fall into this category, for example. Would they be exempted? Of course not, they like everyone else had the duty to act right, and they like everyone else knew murder was wrong (in the information era who can claim ignorance when it comes to the guidance of the prophets? Everything is freely available online, you either care or you don’t) and they still went ahead for whatever reason.
“My morality is the only correct morality”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
Should’ve double checked! But they weren’t too stupid to get it, just intellectually lazy and overall uncaring, and disregarding that responsibility and then committing atrocities is enough to land you in Hell, especially if you never repent. Will the leaders have a harsher sentence? Definitely.
“My morality is the only correct morality”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
Again, you keep on mentioning viewpoints but you still haven’t provided a single one you stand by that I don’t and that directly contradicts the TC (whilst also being morally right, ofc, I doubt you want to pronounce yourself a villain).
“My morality is the only correct morality”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
I already told you why, i don’t think there is a interesting conversation about comparative viewpoints to be had with someone who uses “because some things just are” or “because god said so” as actual arguments.
There’s generally no room for any other viewpoint with such a person, it’d just be wasted breath.
Or, more succinctly, There’s no good way to discuss reason with someone who isn’t using it.
You yourself agree with them besides the ones that involve the Creator…
Unfounded assumptions.
Especially seeing as you claimed, immediately before this, that i haven’t given any of my own viewpoints.
And how could I interpret 1 as 0 unless I’m just blind and my opinion should be disregarded?
“Feigned Ignorance”
“My interpretation is correct”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
How could I interpret “don’t kill” as “kill if they’re brown/if they have things you like/if you feel like it”? How can anyone?
“My interpretation is correct”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
Nobody was aksing you to, all i said was that snot all interpretations match your own.
Which interpretation of the TC can give you something that goes squarely against the literal meanings of these phrases ?
There is a whole thread of examples here, find one yourself.
I really don’t know what you’re saying and I’m not feigning ignorance, I think you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of people and reality.
“Feigned Ignorance”
“My interpretation is correct”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
You believe in gravity (and something in your tummy feels funny when you look from a balcony on the 12th floor), I believe in God, His judgement, the moral duty He has imposed on us and Heaven and Hell as our final destinations (and I also feel something when I transgress,
“My interpretation is correct”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
I believe in the scientific theory of the effects of what we call gravity, until something else comes up to change that belief.
Your belief is faith because there is no proof.
I have no problem with faith, as long as it’s not imposed upon others.
everyone does at the beginning, then they either learn to pay attention to it or ignore it).
“My morality is the only correct morality”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
And just like you wouldn’t jump out of a building unless you lost your mind because you would end up flattened, so would I and everyone on my side not commit great transgressions because we know what will happen.
“My interpretation is correct”
“My morality is the only correct morality”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
Perhaps you have a moment of insanity, idk, for whatever biological reason something in your brain just malfunctions… well, as soon as you come down from it you’d greatly repent your actions, make amends, seek solutions for this insanity, maybe even get yourself locked up so you don’t do it again!
“My morality is the only correct morality”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
But, again, most people don’t just randomly murder or rape when their whole lives they didn’t even punch anyone.
Agreed.
But as you’ve repeatedly demonstrated, you refuse to (or simply can’t) acknowledge that there are people who do those things because they think it is right to do so.
And those who do and claim to believe in something that disagrees with it, like the TC, are simply lying about their beliefs.
“Feigned Ignorance”
“My interpretation is correct”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
They have and they will continue doing it because some people are just too dumb to realize it and they have no morals so it’s completely win-win for them.
“Feigned Ignorance”
“My interpretation is correct”
"i genuinely in (good or more likely bad) faith don’t understand that viewpoints other than my own can be exist and/or be correct”
“the baseline moral standard you should all be adhering to should be the same as mine”
How would people have read that math in the diamond?! And how would math transmit moral values? I feel like this leaves the realm of mathematics, lol. You complain about the best way to do things in this world (despite the time and alterations) but provide no alternative. If God wanted us to be perfect, he would’ve made us without free will, just automatons following moral law, but he gave us free will and wants us to be good, as there’s no perfection in this world. The direction and base idea of things like the TC are undeniable and easily understood, but if one wants to rationalize and deform the words therein they can, one can be as silly as possible if one wants to. If you want to rationalize murder even though they told you not to kill, or rationalize cheating even though they told you not to lust over women you’re not married to, well, that’s on you (didn’t a Brit king create a whole religion just to cheat?). And God will remind you of what you did and deal with you accordingly, of course. But no one can, in good faith, both say they believe in the TC, for example, and God’s judgment and actively go against it. You can lie, to yourself and others, about it but you can’t do that in good faith. Who would rather taste Hell than not?
And how are people not being “real people” a thing? Where does God say some people are people and others aren’t? Why is murdering an innocent adult okay but not an innocent child? What? Which divine mandate? I’m only speaking for monotheism, best encapsulated in the Qur’an, but again, I don’t see “God chose me so I can be immoral” in the Mosaic laws, in Ecclesiastes or the message of Jesus. And the Qur’an is pretty detailed when it comes to war and how it’s even better to release prisoners (some societies take no prisoners but it’s better not to kill in Islam and all of Abrahamic monotheism), even if they initiated the war. And all you’ve given me is examples of heresy, not belief. Come on, man. Of course these people exist, and maybe that was the spin they used to convince others but they fully knew what was up (or they also lied to themselves a bit and only partially knew what was up, which is why it’s a good policy to be honest), that’s why they had to spin it in the first place. You can’t both believe, truly, that your soul is going to Hell for committing grave transgressions and also commit them, unless you’re actually insane and want to be deservedly tortured for your own misdeeds forever. Most people are not crazy, though.
You mean , how would i describe the process of doing the thing i specifically said was guesswork outside of my expertise and not relevant because it was referencing something never posited ?
I wouldn’t, that’s what area experts are for.
Interesting questions, for a conversation where the answer are relevant to the discussion.
Didn’t happen, read it again.
Rampant speculation and irrelevant.
So i see this big wall of text, to save time I’m just going to refer to the shorthand for you replies (that I’ve already mentioned) and possibly direct fallacies, if they apply, if something new comes up I’ll address that directly.
But no one can, in good faith, both say they believe in the TC, for example, and God’s judgment and actively go against it. You can lie, to yourself and others, about it but you can’t do that in good faith. Who would rather taste Hell than not?
Not an actual thing i claimed or wish to, i said there are people who think/have though that, some of them bringing that into their religious doctrine.
I don’t buy you not understanding the concept of slavery, caste or any of the other systems that lead to personhood being revoked in some peoples minds.
I’m going to add “Feigned Ignorance” to the list of autoreplies
Just in case, there was a big big war about this not so long ago.
Not what i said, read it again.
Any
You know that’s not what I’m saying, there wouldn’t need to be an explicit entry about something there just has to be enough room for someone to interpret something that way.
Again, you know this but what is actually written is not the problem i’ve been referencing(mostly), it’s the room for interpretation.
oh damn, got you a trifecta, congrats
Nearly there…so close…
Aww , so close, yet so far.
But this in an interesting segue into a topic i’m sure you’ll have lots of fun dodging.
How important is intent.
If a “bad apple” misleads people into murdering for the “greater good” do those people get a pass because they thought they were doing the right thing ?
How about if they unwittingly (but directly) contribute to the murder of someone ?
You absolutely can, it’s a shitty system full l of logical loopholes.
A big one being, “fuck it I’m going to hell forever anyway, what’s one more sin added to the list, where are they going to put me, super hell?”.
Damn that shorthand really does make this quicker
Depends on the circumstances but yes, intent is what matters the most, it’s just harder to see than actions. It’s important to double check the info before you go around murdering innocents, lol. But I assume many of these just wanted the money that came with it and said “fuck morals, fuck relevant information”. The Americans who signed up to kill brown people in the Middle East in the early 00s fall into this category, for example. Would they be exempted? Of course not, they like everyone else had the duty to act right, and they like everyone else knew murder was wrong (in the information era who can claim ignorance when it comes to the guidance of the prophets? Everything is freely available online, you either care or you don’t) and they still went ahead for whatever reason. Should’ve double checked! But they weren’t too stupid to get it, just intellectually lazy and overall uncaring, and disregarding that responsibility and then committing atrocities is enough to land you in Hell, especially if you never repent. Will the leaders have a harsher sentence? Definitely.
Again, you keep on mentioning viewpoints but you still haven’t provided a single one you stand by that I don’t and that directly contradicts the TC (whilst also being morally right, ofc, I doubt you want to pronounce yourself a villain). You yourself agree with them besides the ones that involve the Creator… And how could I interpret 1 as 0 unless I’m just blind and my opinion should be disregarded? How could I interpret “don’t kill” as “kill if they’re brown/if they have things you like/if you feel like it”? How can anyone? Which interpretation of the TC can give you something that goes squarely against the literal meanings of these phrases ?
I really don’t know what you’re saying and I’m not feigning ignorance, I think you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of people and reality. You believe in gravity (and something in your tummy feels funny when you look from a balcony on the 12th floor), I believe in God, His judgement, the moral duty He has imposed on us and Heaven and Hell as our final destinations (and I also feel something when I transgress, everyone does at the beginning, then they either learn to pay attention to it or ignore it). And just like you wouldn’t jump out of a building unless you lost your mind because you would end up flattened, so would I and everyone on my side not commit great transgressions because we know what will happen. Perhaps you have a moment of insanity, idk, for whatever biological reason something in your brain just malfunctions… well, as soon as you come down from it you’d greatly repent your actions, make amends, seek solutions for this insanity, maybe even get yourself locked up so you don’t do it again! But, again, most people don’t just randomly murder or rape when their whole lives they didn’t even punch anyone. And those who do and claim to believe in something that disagrees with it, like the TC, are simply lying about their beliefs. They have and they will continue doing it because some people are just too dumb to realize it and they have no morals so it’s completely win-win for them.
I’m going to add
to the shortcuts, to save more time.
Ok, i was wrong here, you didn’t dodge entirely, you acknowledged intent as a thing here and then completely ignored it in your following replies.
Again, ignoring that there are people that believe what they are doing is just and moral.
Should’ve double checked! But they weren’t too stupid to get it, just intellectually lazy and overall uncaring, and disregarding that responsibility and then committing atrocities is enough to land you in Hell, especially if you never repent. Will the leaders have a harsher sentence? Definitely.
I already told you why, i don’t think there is a interesting conversation about comparative viewpoints to be had with someone who uses “because some things just are” or “because god said so” as actual arguments.
There’s generally no room for any other viewpoint with such a person, it’d just be wasted breath.
Or, more succinctly, There’s no good way to discuss reason with someone who isn’t using it.
Unfounded assumptions.
Especially seeing as you claimed, immediately before this, that i haven’t given any of my own viewpoints.
Nobody was aksing you to, all i said was that snot all interpretations match your own.
There is a whole thread of examples here, find one yourself.
I believe in the scientific theory of the effects of what we call gravity, until something else comes up to change that belief.
Your belief is faith because there is no proof.
I have no problem with faith, as long as it’s not imposed upon others.
Agreed.
But as you’ve repeatedly demonstrated, you refuse to (or simply can’t) acknowledge that there are people who do those things because they think it is right to do so.
wow , that really is a timesaver.