The thing I’m responding to says “long live Europe”. My response specifically agrees with the dunking on american tip culture, but adds that “long live Europe” ignores exploitation in the service industry in Europe. That’s not “whataboutism”, I didn’t “pick” Europeans, the thing I was responding to already “picked” Europeans by saying “long live Europe”. I suspect you have no fucking clue what “whataboutism” actually is.
whataboutism, the rhetorical practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation, by asking a different but related question, or by raising a different issue altogether. Whataboutism often serves to reduce the perceived plausibility or seriousness of the original accusation or question by suggesting that the person advancing it is hypocritical or that the responder’s misbehavior is not unique or unprecedented. Acts of whataboutism typically begin with rhetorical questions of the form “What about…?”
Examples of whataboutism
A wife accuses her husband of drinking too much. He responds, “What about you? You smoke marijuana all the time.”
A retail business owner asks an employee if she has been taking money from a tip jar. The employee responds, “What about all the charities I support?”
A father asks his daughter why she was out so late. She responds, “What about that football game?”
I’m not deflecting the accusation from the Americans and I am not American myself. I also do not raise unrelated “what about X” stuff, I am specifically pointing out to the original post that specifically says “Long Live Europe”, i.e., sets up rhetorically a distinction between guilty Americans and not guilty Europeans. Whataboutery is to say “the accusation does not stand because the accuser is also guilty”. That is NOT what I’m doing here. It is not fucking whataboutism to point out that (a) yes the accusation stands but (b) the accuser is also guilty.
So learn the fuck what you’re talking about before throwing bullshit around.
“long live Europe” ignores exploitation in the service industry in Europe. That’s not “whataboutism”.
= responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation
I’m not deflecting the accusation from the Americans
Yes you are. You didn’t dicuss the topic. You have “forum slided” into definitions of whataboutism.
Whataboutery is to say “the accusation does not stand because the accuser is also guilty”.
Because you are trying to move the goalposts away from US tipping culture towards a broader service topic where Europe is also guilty.
Let’s see if you can stay on topic.
Tips are taxed in Europe, but not in the US. That is why there is a difference. It’s not culture. It’s government policy.
You take my words out of context, you willfully ignore the meaning of words you use to accuse me, you throw random accusations again while ignoring their actual meaning (“moving the goalposts”!?), and you seem to really desperately want to fit me into some kind of weird narrative. I don’t have time for you.
US tipping culture? Bad, exploitative, should end. Support the unions.
Europeans smugly pretending they are superior when Europe also has exploitative practices? Bad, should stop. Stop telling people how your own farts smell better and support the unions.
That’s it, end of the line.
You do have a valid general point about how bad service jobs are under capitalism, but you are unable to make it relevant to the focus of discussion, which is tipping.
It really is, because it comes with the underlying one-dimensional view of the entire situation. There’s an entire underground economy that exists because of the unfair labor practices. But you don’t want to talk about that.
I absolutely want to talk about it. Let’s talk about it.
EDIT, in the spirit of actually talking about it:
In the North American context, in the US but also in Canada, one of the largest existing unions that organizes hospitality workers is UNITE HERE. They have done some pretty awesome strikes and mobilizations the last decade. There is a long history of hospitality union organizing that was, you know what’s coming, crushed by the red scare. Of course another thing to mention is the unionization of Starbucks, where the IWW played an important role. Overall, yea, the service sector in North America is a very important sector in the fight to reassert the rights of the working class.
In the European context, I don’t know much beyond my own home country. I know for example that there was just on Wednesday a massive strike, fighting back against for example the egregious 13 hour day that the government has imposed, but more importantly at the complete arbitrariness that the workers are subjected to as the fucking conservatives are turning a blind eye to employer law breaking. I would love to hear more about how the working class is organizing across the EU. For example, there is an article by La Strada but I would love to know more.
Basically, in Europe and in North America, and of course beyond the West, the working class everywhere is being squeezed also in the hospitality sector. We need to be organizing, casting aside silly divisions and organizing within the framework of internationalist solidarity. My point is that the meme tries to turn a class problem into facile euro-smugness score pointing, leaving untouched the fact that it’s the same capitalist exploitation with American and European characteristics respectively.
in Europe and in North America, and of course beyond the West, the working class everywhere is being squeezed
In the West? Just look what happens beyond the West … in China, for example, there’s a 996 working culture, and the only union that is allowed ‘acts’ under the command of the Chinese Communist Party. And these are by far not the only problems of China’s working class.
Russia? No better there …
There’s a lot room for improvement in the West, but your framing of the problem and your attempt to limit the issue of abusive labour conditions to the West has nothing to do with reality as the problems are much bigger in autocratic states.
I detest people who cry whataboutism when someone makes the claim that a contradiction is global and systemic and not limited to one nation. At this point, it’s a thought-terminating cliche.
I detest whataboutism
It might be whataboutism if it were shielding the Americans. It’s not.
Well, you picked Europeans. You said “Whatabout Europeans”.
Making up shit, are we now?
Pure whataboutism
The thing I’m responding to says “long live Europe”. My response specifically agrees with the dunking on american tip culture, but adds that “long live Europe” ignores exploitation in the service industry in Europe. That’s not “whataboutism”, I didn’t “pick” Europeans, the thing I was responding to already “picked” Europeans by saying “long live Europe”. I suspect you have no fucking clue what “whataboutism” actually is.
EDIT: Brittanica:
I’m not deflecting the accusation from the Americans and I am not American myself. I also do not raise unrelated “what about X” stuff, I am specifically pointing out to the original post that specifically says “Long Live Europe”, i.e., sets up rhetorically a distinction between guilty Americans and not guilty Europeans. Whataboutery is to say “the accusation does not stand because the accuser is also guilty”. That is NOT what I’m doing here. It is not fucking whataboutism to point out that (a) yes the accusation stands but (b) the accuser is also guilty.
So learn the fuck what you’re talking about before throwing bullshit around.
= responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation
Yes you are. You didn’t dicuss the topic. You have “forum slided” into definitions of whataboutism.
Because you are trying to move the goalposts away from US tipping culture towards a broader service topic where Europe is also guilty.
Let’s see if you can stay on topic. Tips are taxed in Europe, but not in the US. That is why there is a difference. It’s not culture. It’s government policy.
You take my words out of context, you willfully ignore the meaning of words you use to accuse me, you throw random accusations again while ignoring their actual meaning (“moving the goalposts”!?), and you seem to really desperately want to fit me into some kind of weird narrative. I don’t have time for you.
US tipping culture? Bad, exploitative, should end. Support the unions. Europeans smugly pretending they are superior when Europe also has exploitative practices? Bad, should stop. Stop telling people how your own farts smell better and support the unions. That’s it, end of the line.
1/ Failed to stay on the topic of tipping.
2/ Refused to engage further when called out.
I rate this engagement 2/10.
You do have a valid general point about how bad service jobs are under capitalism, but you are unable to make it relevant to the focus of discussion, which is tipping.
deleted by creator
It really is, because it comes with the underlying one-dimensional view of the entire situation. There’s an entire underground economy that exists because of the unfair labor practices. But you don’t want to talk about that.
I absolutely want to talk about it. Let’s talk about it.
EDIT, in the spirit of actually talking about it:
In the North American context, in the US but also in Canada, one of the largest existing unions that organizes hospitality workers is UNITE HERE. They have done some pretty awesome strikes and mobilizations the last decade. There is a long history of hospitality union organizing that was, you know what’s coming, crushed by the red scare. Of course another thing to mention is the unionization of Starbucks, where the IWW played an important role. Overall, yea, the service sector in North America is a very important sector in the fight to reassert the rights of the working class.
In the European context, I don’t know much beyond my own home country. I know for example that there was just on Wednesday a massive strike, fighting back against for example the egregious 13 hour day that the government has imposed, but more importantly at the complete arbitrariness that the workers are subjected to as the fucking conservatives are turning a blind eye to employer law breaking. I would love to hear more about how the working class is organizing across the EU. For example, there is an article by La Strada but I would love to know more.
Basically, in Europe and in North America, and of course beyond the West, the working class everywhere is being squeezed also in the hospitality sector. We need to be organizing, casting aside silly divisions and organizing within the framework of internationalist solidarity. My point is that the meme tries to turn a class problem into facile euro-smugness score pointing, leaving untouched the fact that it’s the same capitalist exploitation with American and European characteristics respectively.
In the West? Just look what happens beyond the West … in China, for example, there’s a 996 working culture, and the only union that is allowed ‘acts’ under the command of the Chinese Communist Party. And these are by far not the only problems of China’s working class.
Russia? No better there …
There’s a lot room for improvement in the West, but your framing of the problem and your attempt to limit the issue of abusive labour conditions to the West has nothing to do with reality as the problems are much bigger in autocratic states.
🙄
I detest people who cry whataboutism when someone makes the claim that a contradiction is global and systemic and not limited to one nation. At this point, it’s a thought-terminating cliche.
Tax exempt tip income is mainly limited to the US.