Okay. Thank you for clarifying. Its not always clear.
But not if the alternate position is also claiming that having valid claims of sexual assault and rape have no bearing on a person’s ability to govern
No I 100% agree with that. And I don’t agree with everything that @[email protected] is saying, or at least, I’m not going to dig through their comment history with a fine tooth comb. But they are representing a voice which is happening right now in online discussion communities. As an example of this, Ryan Grim and Emma Vigeland are having a version of this exact discussion, at this very moment, and the majority report livestream (link: https://www.youtube.com/live/tr2CRLJsn90). So I elevate your discussion as an examplar of a broader conversation happening right now.
So maybe Amniotic Druid isn’t the best person to make the point, but they aren’t the only ones making the point. And I one THOUSAND percent agree with this statement:
If the left’s position is now that we don’t care about rape or rape victims or women in order to win, then fuck the left.
Which is not whats happening, at least not in the aggregate or people defensively firing off strays. I think its important to engage with both sides core points, both of which are extremely valid. The situation has all the hallmarks of credibility and all the hallmarks of an insider hit job. No material evidence has been offered. Within an hour of the Politico story, mainstream Democrats had made their decision to deplatform Platner. This is its self a form of evidence of something.
As an example of this, Ryan Grim and Emma Vigeland are having a version of this exact discussion, at this very moment, and the majority report livestream
Thank you for mentioning this, I’ll watch it later. Ryan Grim has had to walk back a few things he’s said about this issue as well, I’m incredibly disgusted with him and Drop Site in general about this.
We agree here. I think it’s a credible accusation which doesn’t mean it isn’t a hit job. And there’s valid conversations to be had about that, about moving forward, and the best ways to do so.
I, personally, cannot have the conversation about the conspiracy theories swirling around this with people who are out and out doing rape denial and victim blaming. So that’s why you see some vitriol from me on that front.
So that’s why you see some vitriol from me on that front.
💯 understandable.
And I think this Joy-ann Reid clip (https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=dqeoETWBwc4) summarizes my position best. If its not an insider hit job, its being used exactly as if it was to do exactly what would be done if this were an AIPAC coordinated smear campaign. Its Maines choice. I mean Collins voted to send another person far more credibly accused of rape, Kavanaugh, to the supreme court. Thats a lifetime appointment, far far far more powerful than a senator. In the end its up to Maine to decide, but if the DSC tries to come in and make that decision for them, idk where that leaves things.
There are real divisions among Democrats right now, and I don’t just mean among the left. Whatever the Democrats are as a party, its clearly not a united front.
And so I guess the question I have for both sides is, how would you feel to be wrong about this, once the laundry is fully aired out? What if it comes out that the accusation turned out not to be credible, and the result of this was the handing over of the seat to an AIPAC Dem or a Republican, or even further, the full collapse of the current socialist moment the country is in (which this moment is very clearly being used for by the third way liberals)? And if you’re in defense of Platner, and they were to stay in and win, and it turns out the accusation is real, and they did commit to a violent SA, what is it exactly that you stand for?
And so I guess the question I have for both sides is, how would you feel to be wrong about this, once the laundry is fully aired out?
I never liked Platner as a candidate based on his military experience and past social media comments. I was resigned to allow Maine to move forward how they wanted and after seeing the absolute push back from the left against anyone voicing concerns. Most of those people voicing concerns were women and people of color.
I don’t think there is ever going to be a time where Platner definitely proves he didn’t rape both of these women based on the evidence we do have.
This is a lesson to better vet our candidates and take things like saying how fun it is to kill people seriously. We need to actually see these candidates go through the steps of restorative justice to help prove they’ve changed and won’t be another Fetterman. If we’re going to stand on our morals over Republicans, then we shouldn’t abandon them in a bid to win.
And so if it comes out that the rape didn’t happen but that the consequences of the accusation are the seat goes to an AIPAC candidate, or worse yet, it collapses the left-wing socialist moment we’re in, are you ok with that?
IF the entire left-wing socialist movement collapses, it would be the consequences of choosing a candidate who is not actually reformed from his past, not because of this one accusation.
And that fault lies squarely with the people who chose this man, elevated him, and ignored all the warning signs. The fault isn’t with this woman who brought forward her truth so that people could be better informed about who they were voting for.
It would be really unfortunate if Platner alone killed the movement when there’s been so much forward movement outside of Maine. Look at Mamdani. Look at Abdul El-Sayed. Even Seattle elected a Dem socialist as mayor. The movement is still happening.
It would be really unfortunate if Platner alone killed the movement when there’s been so much forward movement outside of Maine. Look at Mamdani. Look at Abdul El-Sayed.
Okay, so, I want to be clear that we’re exercising this question under the hypothetical that the accusation is false. The question is very narrow: If the accusation turns out to be false, and it destroys a movement, would you be ok taking responsibility for that?
Because right now party operatives are already moving to tie these accusations to Mamdani, El-Sayed, John Ossof. Not hypothetically, but actually going on news outlets from the 8th through the 9th of this week, and more today, of a concerted effort to make people like El-Sayed somehow be responsible for the accusation against Platner. I’ll update this sections with links in an edit, but I’ve seen clips of all of this happening this week from party operatives.
You have your position and I don’t disagree with it. Just like @[email protected] has there position, and I don’t disagree with it (at least in part). They also have to answer their own hard question on this.
But your question is very specific: Would you accept responsibility for destroying the movement based on a false accusation? This is all high stakes. Being wrong here matters alot and has real consequences. Your response was a bit of slight of hand so I want to drill into this one point. If you end up being wrong about this, and it allows for effectively the complete destruction of the only and best motion we’ve had in the US in the fight against fascism, is that something you are ok with taking responsibility for?
And @[email protected] has their own hard question to answer. But you have a stance, and so this question goes to you.
*Updated with links to provide direct evidence of the way this is already being used cynically.
Okay. Thank you for clarifying. Its not always clear.
No I 100% agree with that. And I don’t agree with everything that @[email protected] is saying, or at least, I’m not going to dig through their comment history with a fine tooth comb. But they are representing a voice which is happening right now in online discussion communities. As an example of this, Ryan Grim and Emma Vigeland are having a version of this exact discussion, at this very moment, and the majority report livestream (link: https://www.youtube.com/live/tr2CRLJsn90). So I elevate your discussion as an examplar of a broader conversation happening right now.
So maybe Amniotic Druid isn’t the best person to make the point, but they aren’t the only ones making the point. And I one THOUSAND percent agree with this statement:
Which is not whats happening, at least not in the aggregate or people defensively firing off strays. I think its important to engage with both sides core points, both of which are extremely valid. The situation has all the hallmarks of credibility and all the hallmarks of an insider hit job. No material evidence has been offered. Within an hour of the Politico story, mainstream Democrats had made their decision to deplatform Platner. This is its self a form of evidence of something.
Thank you for mentioning this, I’ll watch it later. Ryan Grim has had to walk back a few things he’s said about this issue as well, I’m incredibly disgusted with him and Drop Site in general about this.
We agree here. I think it’s a credible accusation which doesn’t mean it isn’t a hit job. And there’s valid conversations to be had about that, about moving forward, and the best ways to do so.
I, personally, cannot have the conversation about the conspiracy theories swirling around this with people who are out and out doing rape denial and victim blaming. So that’s why you see some vitriol from me on that front.
💯 understandable.
And I think this Joy-ann Reid clip (https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=dqeoETWBwc4) summarizes my position best. If its not an insider hit job, its being used exactly as if it was to do exactly what would be done if this were an AIPAC coordinated smear campaign. Its Maines choice. I mean Collins voted to send another person far more credibly accused of rape, Kavanaugh, to the supreme court. Thats a lifetime appointment, far far far more powerful than a senator. In the end its up to Maine to decide, but if the DSC tries to come in and make that decision for them, idk where that leaves things.
There are real divisions among Democrats right now, and I don’t just mean among the left. Whatever the Democrats are as a party, its clearly not a united front.
And so I guess the question I have for both sides is, how would you feel to be wrong about this, once the laundry is fully aired out? What if it comes out that the accusation turned out not to be credible, and the result of this was the handing over of the seat to an AIPAC Dem or a Republican, or even further, the full collapse of the current socialist moment the country is in (which this moment is very clearly being used for by the third way liberals)? And if you’re in defense of Platner, and they were to stay in and win, and it turns out the accusation is real, and they did commit to a violent SA, what is it exactly that you stand for?
Thank you, as usual, for having level-headed takes and being respectful. I usually agree with your views when I come across your comments.
added some edits.
I never liked Platner as a candidate based on his military experience and past social media comments. I was resigned to allow Maine to move forward how they wanted and after seeing the absolute push back from the left against anyone voicing concerns. Most of those people voicing concerns were women and people of color.
I don’t think there is ever going to be a time where Platner definitely proves he didn’t rape both of these women based on the evidence we do have.
This is a lesson to better vet our candidates and take things like saying how fun it is to kill people seriously. We need to actually see these candidates go through the steps of restorative justice to help prove they’ve changed and won’t be another Fetterman. If we’re going to stand on our morals over Republicans, then we shouldn’t abandon them in a bid to win.
And so if it comes out that the rape didn’t happen but that the consequences of the accusation are the seat goes to an AIPAC candidate, or worse yet, it collapses the left-wing socialist moment we’re in, are you ok with that?
IF the entire left-wing socialist movement collapses, it would be the consequences of choosing a candidate who is not actually reformed from his past, not because of this one accusation.
And that fault lies squarely with the people who chose this man, elevated him, and ignored all the warning signs. The fault isn’t with this woman who brought forward her truth so that people could be better informed about who they were voting for.
It would be really unfortunate if Platner alone killed the movement when there’s been so much forward movement outside of Maine. Look at Mamdani. Look at Abdul El-Sayed. Even Seattle elected a Dem socialist as mayor. The movement is still happening.
Okay, so, I want to be clear that we’re exercising this question under the hypothetical that the accusation is false. The question is very narrow: If the accusation turns out to be false, and it destroys a movement, would you be ok taking responsibility for that?
Because right now party operatives are already moving to tie these accusations to Mamdani, El-Sayed, John Ossof. Not hypothetically, but actually going on news outlets from the 8th through the 9th of this week, and more today, of a concerted effort to make people like El-Sayed somehow be responsible for the accusation against Platner. I’ll update this sections with links in an edit, but I’ve seen clips of all of this happening this week from party operatives.
You have your position and I don’t disagree with it. Just like @[email protected] has there position, and I don’t disagree with it (at least in part). They also have to answer their own hard question on this.
But your question is very specific: Would you accept responsibility for destroying the movement based on a false accusation? This is all high stakes. Being wrong here matters alot and has real consequences. Your response was a bit of slight of hand so I want to drill into this one point. If you end up being wrong about this, and it allows for effectively the complete destruction of the only and best motion we’ve had in the US in the fight against fascism, is that something you are ok with taking responsibility for?
And @[email protected] has their own hard question to answer. But you have a stance, and so this question goes to you.
*Updated with links to provide direct evidence of the way this is already being used cynically.