This isn’t exclusive to the abortion topic, but a lot of people hate the opposing political view so much they refuse to even think of their opponent’s point of view.
Ironically, it makes fighting those views harder because none of your arguments address their actual points.
It is painfully obvious when someone formed their opinion from memes alone. They get all their news from screenshots on social media and have a skewed view of the world.
When it comes to politics, I do believe the right is significantly worse about it but my side loves spreading misinformation if it affirms their beliefs, too.
That’s why you’ll sometimes find me in the comments sounding like a conservative when I call someone out for framing something poorly. It just makes all of us look stupid. We don’t need misinformation to make them look bad so stick to the facts and, like you said, address their actual points.
Yeah I’m still rolling my eyes at a ban I got once for explaining what MAGAs believe (because I know MAGAs very well), but the banner didn’t care to realize that it wasn’t coming from my personal beliefs.
No political affiliation is above tribalism, echo chambers, and failing to think critically. Some people just stumble into morally correct stances by accident.
If your only exposure is through memes in your social media bubble, you’re going to assume that the worst of the worst is a true representation of the whole
I think you are being overly literal; they are concerned with harm to a person that they suppose the fetus embodies. In the context of a four panel comic, it’s totally okay to condense that to “hurt”.
They also didn’t use “hurt,” though, they used “feel.” This is actually a strawman (an actual strawman, not just “an argument I don’t like”) for a group that has so many insane, hyperbolic rationalizations for their values; the comic is not very good.
It’s also just like, not very critical. Circumcision is of course not as serious as murder to a person who believes abortion is murder, and any potential contradictions between those two values is remedied by them both being purportedly prescribed by their holy text. Yeah sure, they’re wrong about both of these things, but erasing why and then making a hyperbolic comparison that does not exist for exactly that reason is a strawman. There’s so much other shit to make fun of these people for.
That’s basically the default view so yeah, of course it’s more common. This comic is showing a conservative extremist going off about the fetus feeling pain.
Conservatives are pro-LIFE, not anti-pain. They don’t give a shit if the fetus has a genetic defect that will lead to a year of suffering before death, that baby’s getting born.
It’s not like they’re ok with abortion if it’s painless. Come on lol
They are not even pro life, they’re against women’s autonomy, they’re perfectly happy letting a woman and a fetus die as long as she doesn’t receive healthcare she needs.
But to the point, incredibly common anti-abortion “argument” is this appeal to emotions, they lie that fetus has developed senses and actually wants to live and all that. All this shit isn’t rational, and yet very common. You’ll find a significant number of people who will use this “but it’s not a fetus, it’s a person with feeling, dreams, job, mortgage, and depression already”, like it’s an argument, but wouldn’t answer yes to your question to “will it be ok if it didn’t have this things?”.
I agree that none of it rational. I guess my point was more that “you’re killing the baby” is the weapon and “they are tortured in the process” is in the pile of ammo.
Like if I’m mad at you for killing someone, I’m gonna say “you’re a psychopath for murdering someone” not “you’re a psychopath for shooting them in the stomach”
I personally convinced more than one anti-abortion person out of their anti-abortion position, by definitively showing them that at the time abortion is performed, the fetus not yet posses the ability to feel. Those people were convinced into their anti-abortion position by those lying pictures of doctors going up there with sharp instruments and killing fully formed person that screams for help, and when discovered that it’s not the case, abandoned their stance.
So it’s a point of contention for at least someone, I know that.
I think the problem is you are using an informal, folk definition of “a vegan” while we are talking about the actual moral philosophy called “veganism”.
You just reiterated my point. You are not talking about veganism. I’m not sure you even understand what it is. Veganism is an entire moral philosophy. I am sure there are lots of vegans that were moved to adopt veganism because of factory farming, but factory farming is not why vegans don’t eat meat. Vegans would continue to not consume animals even after factory farming was abolished. Because that’s not what veganism is about. If your friends would start eating meat when factory farming is abolished, that means they are definitionally not vegans. Veganism has an actual definition and if you cannot cite that definition, you are not really qualified to tell vegnas what is and isn’t vegan, are you?
Have you ever heard a pro-lifer use “the baby will feel pain when you kill it” as their reason and not “the baby will die when you kill it”?
That’s like a vegan who is on board with the meat industry as long as the cow is killed quickly.
If they exist at all, they’re an outlier. This comic makes no sense lol
Yes. I’ve heard many of them talk about the use of a suction extraction device, and how it painfully rips the “baby” apart, limb by limb.
But…you truncated my comment so you could answer a question I didn’t ask lol
The reason they care isn’t because of the pain the fetus feels. They care because the fetus dies.
This really isn’t a stretch! Go ahead and ask them if they’d be ok with abortion if the fetus didn’t suffer…
they wouldn’t use the argument if they didn’t mean it
they can be not okay with both aspects
This isn’t exclusive to the abortion topic, but a lot of people hate the opposing political view so much they refuse to even think of their opponent’s point of view.
Ironically, it makes fighting those views harder because none of your arguments address their actual points.
Sun Tzu, “Know your enemy.”
It is painfully obvious when someone formed their opinion from memes alone. They get all their news from screenshots on social media and have a skewed view of the world.
When it comes to politics, I do believe the right is significantly worse about it but my side loves spreading misinformation if it affirms their beliefs, too.
That’s why you’ll sometimes find me in the comments sounding like a conservative when I call someone out for framing something poorly. It just makes all of us look stupid. We don’t need misinformation to make them look bad so stick to the facts and, like you said, address their actual points.
Yeah I’m still rolling my eyes at a ban I got once for explaining what MAGAs believe (because I know MAGAs very well), but the banner didn’t care to realize that it wasn’t coming from my personal beliefs.
No political affiliation is above tribalism, echo chambers, and failing to think critically. Some people just stumble into morally correct stances by accident.
“You are not immune to propaganda”
If your only exposure is through memes in your social media bubble, you’re going to assume that the worst of the worst is a true representation of the whole
I think you are being overly literal; they are concerned with harm to a person that they suppose the fetus embodies. In the context of a four panel comic, it’s totally okay to condense that to “hurt”.
They also didn’t use “hurt,” though, they used “feel.” This is actually a strawman (an actual strawman, not just “an argument I don’t like”) for a group that has so many insane, hyperbolic rationalizations for their values; the comic is not very good.
It’s also just like, not very critical. Circumcision is of course not as serious as murder to a person who believes abortion is murder, and any potential contradictions between those two values is remedied by them both being purportedly prescribed by their holy text. Yeah sure, they’re wrong about both of these things, but erasing why and then making a hyperbolic comparison that does not exist for exactly that reason is a strawman. There’s so much other shit to make fun of these people for.
There is more people who are OK with eating meat but dislike industrial farming that actual vegans. Your analogy makes less sense
That’s basically the default view so yeah, of course it’s more common. This comic is showing a conservative extremist going off about the fetus feeling pain.
Conservatives are pro-LIFE, not anti-pain. They don’t give a shit if the fetus has a genetic defect that will lead to a year of suffering before death, that baby’s getting born.
It’s not like they’re ok with abortion if it’s painless. Come on lol
They are not even pro life, they’re against women’s autonomy, they’re perfectly happy letting a woman and a fetus die as long as she doesn’t receive healthcare she needs.
But to the point, incredibly common anti-abortion “argument” is this appeal to emotions, they lie that fetus has developed senses and actually wants to live and all that. All this shit isn’t rational, and yet very common. You’ll find a significant number of people who will use this “but it’s not a fetus, it’s a person with feeling, dreams, job, mortgage, and depression already”, like it’s an argument, but wouldn’t answer yes to your question to “will it be ok if it didn’t have this things?”.
I agree that none of it rational. I guess my point was more that “you’re killing the baby” is the weapon and “they are tortured in the process” is in the pile of ammo.
Like if I’m mad at you for killing someone, I’m gonna say “you’re a psychopath for murdering someone” not “you’re a psychopath for shooting them in the stomach”
I personally convinced more than one anti-abortion person out of their anti-abortion position, by definitively showing them that at the time abortion is performed, the fetus not yet posses the ability to feel. Those people were convinced into their anti-abortion position by those lying pictures of doctors going up there with sharp instruments and killing fully formed person that screams for help, and when discovered that it’s not the case, abandoned their stance.
So it’s a point of contention for at least someone, I know that.
yes, pro-lifers use the “abortion mutilates babies” argument all the time
And vegans say “animals are tortured in factory farms” but that’s not the reason they don’t eat meat
but it is tho
It’s not. Even if factory farming did not exist, veganism still opposes animal exploitation and vegans would not consume animal products.
it’s not the only reason
y’all are acting like there’s a single master reason. there can be multiple.
I think the problem is you are using an informal, folk definition of “a vegan” while we are talking about the actual moral philosophy called “veganism”.
and I know vegans who are vegan for exactly that reason, above any other
but keep on arguing the wrong point, I guess
You just reiterated my point. You are not talking about veganism. I’m not sure you even understand what it is. Veganism is an entire moral philosophy. I am sure there are lots of vegans that were moved to adopt veganism because of factory farming, but factory farming is not why vegans don’t eat meat. Vegans would continue to not consume animals even after factory farming was abolished. Because that’s not what veganism is about. If your friends would start eating meat when factory farming is abolished, that means they are definitionally not vegans. Veganism has an actual definition and if you cannot cite that definition, you are not really qualified to tell vegnas what is and isn’t vegan, are you?
You know a lot of vegans eating free-range chicken?
I know a good number of people who don’t eat factory farmed meat because of how the animals are treated. some of those people are vegans.
People who would eat meat if the animals were “treated well” are not vegan.
they would not be if they ate meat, yes.
Yeah actually they do that pretty regularly
Yeah… enabling both arguments, you have the two ideas:
They are not remotely comparable. The comic indeed makes no sense.