Gender isn’t assigned by the individual. Gender is assigned by parents, doctors, the community, and society broadly. Gender is an inherently social construction. Some people have misconstrued this to mean that gender is an individual construction. It is not. How you see yourself is only part what makes you, you. You are also defined by how others see you. I understand that some people don’t identify with the gender that has been assigned to them, and thus want to change their gender assignment, and I empathize with those people, but whether or not they are able to do this is at least partially out of their control. Just because you see yourself a certain way, doesn’t mean others will see you that way, and, again we are defined not only by how we perceive ourselves, but how others perceive us.
Umm, people can definitely change how others view them. And if person A refuses to accept person B for who they are, that doesn’t define person B. It defines person A as an asshole.
And if person A refuses to accept person B for who they are, that doesn’t define person B. It defines person A as an asshole.
Agree. And that sentence is not only valid for gender, it’s for any other cultural label (like genders are).
If I say that I’m a gamer, or a fan of star wars, or whatever, and you’re spending your energy trying to convince the world I’m not what I said… it says much more about you than about me.
Are you aware of a good rebuttal to the comment you replied to? It tends to trip me up as even through it’s often presented in bad faith, our concept of race is mostly cultural too isn’t it? It feels like they’re different somehow, but I can’t articulate the reason why and so it’s like I’ve stumbled into a “gotcha”.
gender is a social construct which can change depending on social expectations or the mental feeling of the individual, while race is a biological construct that can’t be changed
Using the original comment’s delineation as a guide: Nationality and ethnicity are cultural; i.e., akin to gender. Race is phenotypic; i.e., akin to sex. So, no.
You’re thinking in the right direction, but you’re not quite there. Yes, gender gets assigned at birth as your biological phenotype (because the overwhelming majority of humans identify as cis gender). Humans become individuals and eventually realize that maybe their assigned gender does not fit them. At this point it becomes their own choice and it overrides any gender assignment given at birth. Depending on the individual, gender changes from something that’s assigned to something you assign yourself.
Yes, genders are tentatively assigned at birth because most languages are based on gendered pronouns and gendered words. So we need a gender to refer to this new person, and we can’t ask babies for their input.
But that’s not different than a father saying his baby will like sports. Or, in my case, saying your baby will grow up to play Magic The Gathering with you.
Because when they’re old enough to decide for themselves, they can change whatever temporary labels you attached to them. And they can say they don’t like Magic. Gender. I meant gender.
First, only about 25% of languages are fully based around everything being gendered.
Second English has some specifically gendered words as remnants from old English and the languages that blended together to make English.
Third, of those gendered languages, they don’t necessarily agree on what gender things are. In the video, they mention that “A Key” in German is masculine and in Spanish is feminine.
First, only about 25% of languages are fully based around everything being gendered.
Guilty of western bias. But should be a bit obvious that I didn’t mean smaller languages, or languages spoken from people that are usually not here discussing with us. But if it wasn’t obvious before, I am making it explicit now.
Third, of those gendered languages, they don’t necessarily agree on what gender things are. In the video, they mention that “A Key” in German is masculine and in Spanish is feminine.
How different languages gender a key (or a chair, or teapot, or whatever object) is not really relevant for a discussion about genders in people.
And I don’t even mean that to defend anything, just trying to explain why people apply genders to babies. And how people just do that for convenience, and how that’s not relevant as a “permanent” gender.
At this point it becomes their own choice and it overrides any gender assignment given at birth.
That’s not true. Your gender assignment is defined by how others treat you, how they interact with you, and that’s not completely under the individual’s control. You can’t choose how other people view you, at least not entirely.
Let’s do a mental exercise based on your assertion:
You identify as a man. You were born a man and have always outwardly displayed masculine characteristics. You are in a room with 100 people, and they collectively decide against your will that you are a masculine female and treat you as such.
Are you now a girl because the collective has decided that? Or are you still a man because that’s what you have always identified as?
Before you say “100 people does not make a society,” the number of people who decide that is irrelevant. Additionally, the reason ‘why’ they decide you are female is also, according to your logic, irrelevant. It just matters that they all agree.
You still think that gender is imposed on you by society?
Well, sometimes people are wrong and you seem to be wrong right now. I think you have some misconceptions about the definition of gender and biological sex.
That doesn’t change much; just means people should place more value in what a person themself identifies with. Some people being inconsiderate doesn’t mean others should be too.
Gender isn’t assigned by the individual. Gender is assigned by parents, doctors, the community, and society broadly. Gender is an inherently social construction.
Social/cultural construction doesn’t mean that it has to be a collective construction.
Your gender is not different from something like… being a nerd, or being a fan of star wars. Someone might call you a nerd, but ultimately it’s up to you to embrace that label or not.
And anyway, cultural things like gender, being a nerd, etc is absolutely unrelated to biology.
Social/cultural construction doesn’t mean that it has to be a collective construction.
It absolutely does mean that. We just live in this age of hyper individualism, where people attempt to atomize the individual from the collective, as though the individual is something wholly its own, but it isn’t. It’s not possible to separate the individual from the collective.
It’s not possible to separate the individual from the collective
Maybe you have a hard time having your opinion.
But it’s not fair to pin that on everywhere else in the world just because it’s like that for you. Lots of people have their own opinions, their own identities.
Just like, for example… EVERY SINGLE TRANS PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. They have a majority of the collective saying they’re of the genre they don’t identify with at all, and they have their own individual opinion separate from the collective anyway.
So you either:
a) have an extreme case of social anxiety and can’t muster the courage to have an opinion that differs from the collective, and thinks everyone else in the world is like you (having a hard time understanding that different people have different opinions is also a psychological problem that is not rare).
or
b) your prejudice/homophobia/genderphobia is leaking.
This is such a weird take. You’re sort of conflating gender assignment with gender perception, while sort of denying gender identity exists, while sort of asserting that gender perception should be authoritative (here lies the bigotry, IMO)
Firstly, the half-denial of gender identity existing / gender applying to individuals
I understand that some people don’t identify with the gender that has been assigned to them[…]
Unless your intended tone was mocking and there are some heavy use of air quotes that you did not write, you already accept that a person has their own perception of their gender.
Gender is an inherently social construction. Some people have misconstrued this to mean that gender is an individual construction. It is not. How you see yourself is only part what makes you, you. You are also defined by how others see you.
But how others see you is not “gender assignment”. How the community sees you is not “gender assignment”. It is gender perception.
The purpose of gender assignment is equally for recordkeeping and for practical purposes in early childhood. Gender is typically assigned by the doctor attending to childbirth, and it’s done in accordance to biological sex characteristics because as another commenter mentioned, the majority of individuals are cisgender so it’s a sensible default. There are some differences in how you might use the bathroom depending on your genitalia, and (for better or for worse) many social norms, like modesty, are imposed/reflected through gender as well. I think parents of a child also have the authority to choose how they present their child’s gender to the world, but this is not something to be done trivially or without the child’s best interests in mind, e.g. for attention. It’s important to note that one’s understanding of their own gender identity is something that develops over time, and will develop differently for everyone.
Just because you see yourself a certain way, doesn’t mean others will see you that way, and, again we are defined not only by how we perceive ourselves, but how others perceive us.
Not really. It is more accurate to say that the importance of the balance of others’ vs. our own perception is itself a spectrum that will be different for everyone and can change fluidly over time. The battle between how much to value each is in fact a core component of many trans experiences.
On gender perception:
How you see yourself is only part what makes you, you. You are also defined by how others see you.
Have you ever heard the expression “we are not our thoughts, we are our reaction to our thoughts?” The simplest way to put it is that mere perception is not enough to be a definition. The only authority on someone’s gender identity is that person. Gender expression is a cognitive shortcut. Sometimes gendered expressions are intentional, sometimes not. There are also agender people who place little or no value on gendered expression in general. If you’re interacting with someone in good faith and you are genuinely unsure how you should refer to them, it takes no time at all to simply ask if they have preferred pronouns. It should go without saying that it’s not your business to dispute anyone’s gender identity, whether they’re strangers or otherwise. You are free to think however you want, the problem is expressing those thoughts in ways that cause harm. Like, just don’t be a dick?
Unless it’s reasonable for me to address you in business dealings as “smegma John” it seems we might put more emphasis on how someone identifies and wants to be called than what anyone else wants to impose on them
The social construct part of Gender is that the terms were constructed by society - they represented the stereotypes of how different sexes would express themselves. It’s in modern times that these are more explicitly detached due to our better understanding of Gender and sex.
People perceive themselves based on their Gender as much as other people do, and it is not necessarily true that a person’s perception of themselves (their gender) lines up with their sex - hence Gender dysphoria.
It is one thing to accidentally misgender someone because gender affirmation isn’t always outwardly obvious (particularly for non-binary folks), but refusing to make that consideration at all, even when aware of it, would say more about you than it would them.
This is the part I have a problem with:
Gender isn’t assigned by the individual. Gender is assigned by parents, doctors, the community, and society broadly. Gender is an inherently social construction. Some people have misconstrued this to mean that gender is an individual construction. It is not. How you see yourself is only part what makes you, you. You are also defined by how others see you. I understand that some people don’t identify with the gender that has been assigned to them, and thus want to change their gender assignment, and I empathize with those people, but whether or not they are able to do this is at least partially out of their control. Just because you see yourself a certain way, doesn’t mean others will see you that way, and, again we are defined not only by how we perceive ourselves, but how others perceive us.
Umm, people can definitely change how others view them. And if person A refuses to accept person B for who they are, that doesn’t define person B. It defines person A as an asshole.
Agree. And that sentence is not only valid for gender, it’s for any other cultural label (like genders are).
If I say that I’m a gamer, or a fan of star wars, or whatever, and you’re spending your energy trying to convince the world I’m not what I said… it says much more about you than about me.
How about race? Can white people elect to be Black?
This is a bad faith argument, and at best a whataboutism. They aren’t remotely related.
Are you aware of a good rebuttal to the comment you replied to? It tends to trip me up as even through it’s often presented in bad faith, our concept of race is mostly cultural too isn’t it? It feels like they’re different somehow, but I can’t articulate the reason why and so it’s like I’ve stumbled into a “gotcha”.
gender is a social construct which can change depending on social expectations or the mental feeling of the individual, while race is a biological construct that can’t be changed
Using the original comment’s delineation as a guide: Nationality and ethnicity are cultural; i.e., akin to gender. Race is phenotypic; i.e., akin to sex. So, no.
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Describing intentionally misgendering someone as “truth” is simply transphobia. Be better.
You’re thinking in the right direction, but you’re not quite there. Yes, gender gets assigned at birth as your biological phenotype (because the overwhelming majority of humans identify as cis gender). Humans become individuals and eventually realize that maybe their assigned gender does not fit them. At this point it becomes their own choice and it overrides any gender assignment given at birth. Depending on the individual, gender changes from something that’s assigned to something you assign yourself.
Yes, genders are tentatively assigned at birth because most languages are based on gendered pronouns and gendered words. So we need a gender to refer to this new person, and we can’t ask babies for their input.
But that’s not different than a father saying his baby will like sports. Or, in my case, saying your baby will grow up to play Magic The Gathering with you.
Because when they’re old enough to decide for themselves, they can change whatever temporary labels you attached to them. And they can say they don’t like Magic. Gender. I meant gender.
Relevant Tom Scott video: https://youtu.be/46ehrFk-gLk
First, only about 25% of languages are fully based around everything being gendered.
Second English has some specifically gendered words as remnants from old English and the languages that blended together to make English.
Third, of those gendered languages, they don’t necessarily agree on what gender things are. In the video, they mention that “A Key” in German is masculine and in Spanish is feminine.
Guilty of western bias. But should be a bit obvious that I didn’t mean smaller languages, or languages spoken from people that are usually not here discussing with us. But if it wasn’t obvious before, I am making it explicit now.
How different languages gender a key (or a chair, or teapot, or whatever object) is not really relevant for a discussion about genders in people.
And I don’t even mean that to defend anything, just trying to explain why people apply genders to babies. And how people just do that for convenience, and how that’s not relevant as a “permanent” gender.
That’s not true. Your gender assignment is defined by how others treat you, how they interact with you, and that’s not completely under the individual’s control. You can’t choose how other people view you, at least not entirely.
That’s a pretty absurd notion.
Let’s do a mental exercise based on your assertion:
You identify as a man. You were born a man and have always outwardly displayed masculine characteristics. You are in a room with 100 people, and they collectively decide against your will that you are a masculine female and treat you as such.
Are you now a girl because the collective has decided that? Or are you still a man because that’s what you have always identified as?
Before you say “100 people does not make a society,” the number of people who decide that is irrelevant. Additionally, the reason ‘why’ they decide you are female is also, according to your logic, irrelevant. It just matters that they all agree.
You still think that gender is imposed on you by society?
Well, sometimes people are wrong and you seem to be wrong right now. I think you have some misconceptions about the definition of gender and biological sex.
That doesn’t change much; just means people should place more value in what a person themself identifies with. Some people being inconsiderate doesn’t mean others should be too.
Social/cultural construction doesn’t mean that it has to be a collective construction.
Your gender is not different from something like… being a nerd, or being a fan of star wars. Someone might call you a nerd, but ultimately it’s up to you to embrace that label or not.
And anyway, cultural things like gender, being a nerd, etc is absolutely unrelated to biology.
It absolutely does mean that. We just live in this age of hyper individualism, where people attempt to atomize the individual from the collective, as though the individual is something wholly its own, but it isn’t. It’s not possible to separate the individual from the collective.
Maybe you have a hard time having your opinion.
But it’s not fair to pin that on everywhere else in the world just because it’s like that for you. Lots of people have their own opinions, their own identities.
Just like, for example… EVERY SINGLE TRANS PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. They have a majority of the collective saying they’re of the genre they don’t identify with at all, and they have their own individual opinion separate from the collective anyway.
So you either:
a) have an extreme case of social anxiety and can’t muster the courage to have an opinion that differs from the collective, and thinks everyone else in the world is like you (having a hard time understanding that different people have different opinions is also a psychological problem that is not rare).
or
b) your prejudice/homophobia/genderphobia is leaking.
What’s it like, being from a planet with a hive mind?
It would be interesting to hear that argument with say, a CRISPR dev.
This is such a weird take. You’re sort of conflating gender assignment with gender perception, while sort of denying gender identity exists, while sort of asserting that gender perception should be authoritative (here lies the bigotry, IMO)
Firstly, the half-denial of gender identity existing / gender applying to individuals
The purpose of gender assignment is equally for recordkeeping and for practical purposes in early childhood. Gender is typically assigned by the doctor attending to childbirth, and it’s done in accordance to biological sex characteristics because as another commenter mentioned, the majority of individuals are cisgender so it’s a sensible default. There are some differences in how you might use the bathroom depending on your genitalia, and (for better or for worse) many social norms, like modesty, are imposed/reflected through gender as well. I think parents of a child also have the authority to choose how they present their child’s gender to the world, but this is not something to be done trivially or without the child’s best interests in mind, e.g. for attention. It’s important to note that one’s understanding of their own gender identity is something that develops over time, and will develop differently for everyone.
On gender perception:
Unless it’s reasonable for me to address you in business dealings as “smegma John” it seems we might put more emphasis on how someone identifies and wants to be called than what anyone else wants to impose on them
The social construct part of Gender is that the terms were constructed by society - they represented the stereotypes of how different sexes would express themselves. It’s in modern times that these are more explicitly detached due to our better understanding of Gender and sex.
People perceive themselves based on their Gender as much as other people do, and it is not necessarily true that a person’s perception of themselves (their gender) lines up with their sex - hence Gender dysphoria.
It is one thing to accidentally misgender someone because gender affirmation isn’t always outwardly obvious (particularly for non-binary folks), but refusing to make that consideration at all, even when aware of it, would say more about you than it would them.
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