In my view, innocent until proven guilty is a concept that only applies to legal proceedings. It’s a vital concept to apply to the state to prevent tyranny. But the colloquial standard of proof is much lower, We know he did those things, he’s even admitted it, and those things are crimes. He committed crimes.
And, we can safely say it, and it will have no effect on the legal proceedings, because we’re not part of them. Let’s not muddy the waters, and let’s save “allegedly” in the colloquial context for things for which we have no proof. Otherwise, how do we talk about cases like OJ Simpson? Everybody knows he did it, but the state didn’t meet its burden of proof in court. In the legal sense, he’s not guilty, and in the colloquial sense, he’s guilty, and both of those things can be true at once.
I respect it by accepting the outcome of the legal process, even if I don’t like it, not by tying myself up in conversational knots. I, for one, will continue to say that he committed crimes, because he did. Whether he’s convicted is different matter.
“I already believe he is guilty” is an opinion which does not violate the legal process unless you’re in the juror’s box or otherwise involved in the justice system prosecuting him.
I don’t think so. One is a statement of (perceived) fact. The other the outcome of a process. Committing crimes is what triggers criminal legal proceedings. At least, in a just world. There are too many people convicted by a court of law who did not commit a crime, and I’m not going to call them criminals.
Committing crimes is what triggers criminal legal proceedings.
Being accused of committing a crime is what triggers criminal legal proceedings. Many people commit crimes and get away with it because they have no accusers. Many others are defendants who are accused, but did not actually commit any crime. I’m not saying that Trump didn’t commit crimes (it’s pretty obvious that he did), but I am pointing out that it is the accusation and being formally charged that causes one to be prosecuted. In my mind, it’s an important distinction.
Fair point, and a good elaboration. That dovetails with my thinking, too. If a house gets robbed and there’s no evidence who did it, we still call it a crime, even without a conviction in court. If we accuse somebody of it, that’s a good use of “accused criminal” in the colloquial sense.
I probably should have elaborated further in my first comment. The average Fediverse user seems to be highly reactionary, and I shouldn’t have assumed that people would read deeper into what I was trying to say.
You must be either very rich and powerful or very delusional if you think the US “justice” system protects you and Trump equally 🙄
Also, innocent until proven guilty is not a rare concept globally by any stretch of the imagination so you can stow your American Exceptionalism bullshit too while you’re at it.
It’s pretty rare in fact. Vast majority of humanity lives under judicial systems that require defendants to prove their innocence rather than prosecutors to prove the defendants’ guilt.
Given the reams of evidence that have been widely shared, I’m pretty comfortable applying my own standard of reasonable doubt and point out the obvious - he’s guilty.
I’m not doling out consequences - if me saying that hurts his feelings, he’s welcome to try suing me.
Even from a legal perspective, he’s been found guilty in civil court several times already and if the justice system works at all (which, granted, is not a given in the US), it’s only a matter of time before he’s found guilty in a criminal court as well.
Not going to matter ultimately. Republicans have dedicated themselves to making impeachment charges meaningless. Every single Democrat president is going to get impeached from here on, unless republicans can kick the trash out of their party.
I didn’t say it as an indicator of consequences - only confirmation of guilt, but yeah - that’s otherwise a pretty accurate take from where I’m sitting.
Yeah, jury already found him guilty and the judge twice said we’re allowed to call the rapist Trump a rapist. In his business fraud case, he is also already found guilty. So he is already a rapist fraudster. I think the meme stands as it is.
Reread the meme. It’s not asking why Trump is guilty, it’s asking why he’s being prosecuted. Being accused of a crime is what precedes criminal prosecution, regardless of whether or not one actually committed the crimes one is being accused of.
We’ve all seen the evidence. We’ve seen the pictures of classified documents sitting in Mara Lago. We’ve heard the recording of Trump openly admitting that he didn’t declassify them and shouldn’t have them. It’s farcical to pretend he’s not guilty.
Actually very close to the same thing, since Trump has declared his guilt too. Just because he framed it as a good thing to do doesn’t make it any less of a confession.
I never said he wasn’t guilty. I merely pointed out that an accusation is what precedes legal prosecution, regardless of whether or not the accused actually committed a crime. Despite irrefutable evidence of Trump’s crimes existing, it remains important to remember the way the system actually works.
Fuck off with that nonsense. There’s been incontrovertible proof and unwitting confessions from himself publicly available for years and he’s been found guilty in civil courts several times. It’s only a matter of time before he’s found guilty in criminal court too. Unless the “justice” system is as broken as it sometimes seems to be.
Bottom line, there’s more proof of him being guilty than of owls existing.
Reread the picture. It’s not asking, “Why is Trump guilty?” or "Did Trump commit crimes? It’s asking, “Why is Trump being prosecuted?” Too many innocent people are prosecuted for us to ignore this distinction when it regards someone we despise.
Nope, still a load of shit in the specific case of Trump. It’s innocent until proven guilty and there’s more publicly available proof of him being 100% without a a shadow of a doubt guilty than of cheetahs being fast runners.
Innocent people might also be prosecuted, but Trump has committed multiple crimes and that’s why he’s being prosecuted. It’s not any more complicated than that.
Hmm, I understand the concept, but this should be adjusted:
“Why Donald Trump is Being Prosecuted”
“Because he is accused of committing crimes.”
Remember, folks, innocent until proven guilty.
asdfasdf
Yep, and surprising absolutely no one.
In my view, innocent until proven guilty is a concept that only applies to legal proceedings. It’s a vital concept to apply to the state to prevent tyranny. But the colloquial standard of proof is much lower, We know he did those things, he’s even admitted it, and those things are crimes. He committed crimes.
And, we can safely say it, and it will have no effect on the legal proceedings, because we’re not part of them. Let’s not muddy the waters, and let’s save “allegedly” in the colloquial context for things for which we have no proof. Otherwise, how do we talk about cases like OJ Simpson? Everybody knows he did it, but the state didn’t meet its burden of proof in court. In the legal sense, he’s not guilty, and in the colloquial sense, he’s guilty, and both of those things can be true at once.
deleted by creator
I respect it by accepting the outcome of the legal process, even if I don’t like it, not by tying myself up in conversational knots. I, for one, will continue to say that he committed crimes, because he did. Whether he’s convicted is different matter.
English may be my second language, but isn’t those pretty contradictory?
“I already believe he is guilty” is an opinion which does not violate the legal process unless you’re in the juror’s box or otherwise involved in the justice system prosecuting him.
I don’t think so. One is a statement of (perceived) fact. The other the outcome of a process. Committing crimes is what triggers criminal legal proceedings. At least, in a just world. There are too many people convicted by a court of law who did not commit a crime, and I’m not going to call them criminals.
Being accused of committing a crime is what triggers criminal legal proceedings. Many people commit crimes and get away with it because they have no accusers. Many others are defendants who are accused, but did not actually commit any crime. I’m not saying that Trump didn’t commit crimes (it’s pretty obvious that he did), but I am pointing out that it is the accusation and being formally charged that causes one to be prosecuted. In my mind, it’s an important distinction.
Fair point, and a good elaboration. That dovetails with my thinking, too. If a house gets robbed and there’s no evidence who did it, we still call it a crime, even without a conviction in court. If we accuse somebody of it, that’s a good use of “accused criminal” in the colloquial sense.
I probably should have elaborated further in my first comment. The average Fediverse user seems to be highly reactionary, and I shouldn’t have assumed that people would read deeper into what I was trying to say.
It’s my second language too and I can see how it might be confusing, but as far as I can tell, they’re saying
“I’ll accept the verdict whether or not he’s declared guilty. That won’t stop me from continuing to say he’s guilty, though”
Trump himself was all too happy to let accusations fly about Hunter Biden although nothing is proven guilty there.
You must be either very rich and powerful or very delusional if you think the US “justice” system protects you and Trump equally 🙄
Also, innocent until proven guilty is not a rare concept globally by any stretch of the imagination so you can stow your American Exceptionalism bullshit too while you’re at it.
It’s pretty rare in fact. Vast majority of humanity lives under judicial systems that require defendants to prove their innocence rather than prosecutors to prove the defendants’ guilt.
Given the reams of evidence that have been widely shared, I’m pretty comfortable applying my own standard of reasonable doubt and point out the obvious - he’s guilty.
I’m not doling out consequences - if me saying that hurts his feelings, he’s welcome to try suing me.
From a legal perspective? Sure.
From the litany of publicly available evidence? He’s definitely guilty, and I’m comfy saying as much and treating him as such.
Even from a legal perspective, he’s been found guilty in civil court several times already and if the justice system works at all (which, granted, is not a given in the US), it’s only a matter of time before he’s found guilty in a criminal court as well.
Not to mention impeached twice…
Not going to matter ultimately. Republicans have dedicated themselves to making impeachment charges meaningless. Every single Democrat president is going to get impeached from here on, unless republicans can kick the trash out of their party.
I didn’t say it as an indicator of consequences - only confirmation of guilt, but yeah - that’s otherwise a pretty accurate take from where I’m sitting.
Of course, and I’m not disagreeing with you. :)
Yeah, jury already found him guilty and the judge twice said we’re allowed to call the rapist Trump a rapist. In his business fraud case, he is also already found guilty. So he is already a rapist fraudster. I think the meme stands as it is.
Reread the meme. It’s not asking why Trump is guilty, it’s asking why he’s being prosecuted. Being accused of a crime is what precedes criminal prosecution, regardless of whether or not one actually committed the crimes one is being accused of.
Reread the meme. Everything in it is true.
We’ve all seen the evidence. We’ve seen the pictures of classified documents sitting in Mara Lago. We’ve heard the recording of Trump openly admitting that he didn’t declassify them and shouldn’t have them. It’s farcical to pretend he’s not guilty.
“Yes that’s me in that video murdering those people, and I’ll do it again!”
Hey guys, we gotta presume innocence!
Your joke suggests a different situation where the accused is declaring their guilt. Not exactly the same thing.
Actually very close to the same thing, since Trump has declared his guilt too. Just because he framed it as a good thing to do doesn’t make it any less of a confession.
I never said he wasn’t guilty. I merely pointed out that an accusation is what precedes legal prosecution, regardless of whether or not the accused actually committed a crime. Despite irrefutable evidence of Trump’s crimes existing, it remains important to remember the way the system actually works.
We’re not on the jury. We can say what’s obvious.
Fuck off with that nonsense. There’s been incontrovertible proof and unwitting confessions from himself publicly available for years and he’s been found guilty in civil courts several times. It’s only a matter of time before he’s found guilty in criminal court too. Unless the “justice” system is as broken as it sometimes seems to be.
Bottom line, there’s more proof of him being guilty than of owls existing.
Reread the picture. It’s not asking, “Why is Trump guilty?” or "Did Trump commit crimes? It’s asking, “Why is Trump being prosecuted?” Too many innocent people are prosecuted for us to ignore this distinction when it regards someone we despise.
Nope, still a load of shit in the specific case of Trump. It’s innocent until proven guilty and there’s more publicly available proof of him being 100% without a a shadow of a doubt guilty than of cheetahs being fast runners.
Innocent people might also be prosecuted, but Trump has committed multiple crimes and that’s why he’s being prosecuted. It’s not any more complicated than that.
He has admitted to crimes himself on video countless times.