Wow! Amazing, you got me! I totally conflated historical perspective and ethical viewpoint, I am owned.
I don’t know many countries that aren’t proud of a revolutionary war they had in the past. I don’t like the bloodbaths caused by the French Revolution, the American revolutionary war, English civil war, Garibaldi, Zapata. I could go and on. Yet, we manage to rationalise them and to put them into perspective, explaining that the population arrived at a point where they couldn’t tolerate oppression anymore. It explains the violence, it doesn’t justify it morally.
You might find participating in these conversations more fruitful if you took time to understand the difference between justification and understanding. I can say that I understand how someone might get enraged and do crazy shit and still condemn the act.
It is not. Justifying means to judge or regard something as righteous. Giving reason means explaining a possible cause to an effect. Not all reasons are justified. Saying “he probably punched you because you accidentally insulted his brother” does not imply “and he’s justified in doing so”. There’s a distinct difference in understanding possible causes for an effect and condoning them. Also, it’s vitally important to try to understand situations to have any hope in fixing them. Without understanding you end up with black and white thinking with no compromises or solutions.
I don’t think justification is only about righteousness. Justifying an action is finding reason for why that action occurred. That can include giving reason why its righteousness. But it also includes giving reason why it happened.
So for me, I don’t care the reason because to me there is no reason that can justify it. To me it is beyond reasonable. I recognize there’s history. But I am saying that history does not justify the action. I don’t empathize with a group that takes this action.
I understand you are not agreeing with what happened. But you are giving a reason and giving reason is a form of empathy and the context you provided is what I would consider justification.
Well, it’s in the term: justify, to show something is just. It has value assessment. Anyway, you’re right, I’m not agreeing with what happened. But I also think that in general if we don’t try to understand reasons, no matter how abhorrent we find them, how do we prevent such things from happening again?
I’m tired of seeing people being labeled as good or evil or whatever and that being used as the reasoning why someone behaved the way they did. We can understand situations, conditions and human psychology better than that and we should try to understand why horrible things happen. This applies to murder, abuse, any kind of violence, including the topic at hand. Only if we begin to understand the underlying reasons can we become proactive instead of reactive. I see it as a way to prevent further suffering and loss of lives, not a justification.
Anyway, if you find it emotionally too taxing, I can understand that. But I hope you can see that not everyone trying to understand the reasons is trying to justify it.
“I don’t think any sane person is justifying the horrors committed by Hamas. But”
“But”
Dude, you’re doing it right now.
Wow! Amazing, you got me! I totally conflated historical perspective and ethical viewpoint, I am owned.
I don’t know many countries that aren’t proud of a revolutionary war they had in the past. I don’t like the bloodbaths caused by the French Revolution, the American revolutionary war, English civil war, Garibaldi, Zapata. I could go and on. Yet, we manage to rationalise them and to put them into perspective, explaining that the population arrived at a point where they couldn’t tolerate oppression anymore. It explains the violence, it doesn’t justify it morally.
You might find participating in these conversations more fruitful if you took time to understand the difference between justification and understanding. I can say that I understand how someone might get enraged and do crazy shit and still condemn the act.
That’s a justification. Giving reason to why is justifying that thing.
It is not. Justifying means to judge or regard something as righteous. Giving reason means explaining a possible cause to an effect. Not all reasons are justified. Saying “he probably punched you because you accidentally insulted his brother” does not imply “and he’s justified in doing so”. There’s a distinct difference in understanding possible causes for an effect and condoning them. Also, it’s vitally important to try to understand situations to have any hope in fixing them. Without understanding you end up with black and white thinking with no compromises or solutions.
I don’t think justification is only about righteousness. Justifying an action is finding reason for why that action occurred. That can include giving reason why its righteousness. But it also includes giving reason why it happened.
So for me, I don’t care the reason because to me there is no reason that can justify it. To me it is beyond reasonable. I recognize there’s history. But I am saying that history does not justify the action. I don’t empathize with a group that takes this action.
I understand you are not agreeing with what happened. But you are giving a reason and giving reason is a form of empathy and the context you provided is what I would consider justification.
Well, it’s in the term: justify, to show something is just. It has value assessment. Anyway, you’re right, I’m not agreeing with what happened. But I also think that in general if we don’t try to understand reasons, no matter how abhorrent we find them, how do we prevent such things from happening again?
I’m tired of seeing people being labeled as good or evil or whatever and that being used as the reasoning why someone behaved the way they did. We can understand situations, conditions and human psychology better than that and we should try to understand why horrible things happen. This applies to murder, abuse, any kind of violence, including the topic at hand. Only if we begin to understand the underlying reasons can we become proactive instead of reactive. I see it as a way to prevent further suffering and loss of lives, not a justification.
Anyway, if you find it emotionally too taxing, I can understand that. But I hope you can see that not everyone trying to understand the reasons is trying to justify it.