That’s what this whole debate is. Some people think that a few hundred years is far enough back but others insist we should think about what happened in 1000 BC. There is no “right” answer. We just need a way to stop people getting killed.
Respectfully, I disagree. While there are definitely religious zealots on both sides who will argue about historical rights, the vast majority of people involved look at this as strictly a modern-day issue.
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks who just barely survived a horrific atrocity that killed a third of their entire population.
That’s not too say that the Jews didn’t also commit atrocities by driving Arabs from their towns.
Just saying, the lack of compassion from the Arab countries was legendary. And they immediately tried to wipe Israel off the map.
For Israel’s entire existence, everything has been about survival, surrounded by genocidal neighbors. They do what they do because they’ve literally been under attack for their nation’s entire history.
I’d also love to see and send to hostilities, but Palestinians with their ZERO bargaining power have decided for decades that they will not agree to any peace deal that doesn’t destroy Israel.
The ball is in their court. Has been for a very long time.
Yeah sorry but I think the “modern day” part has an issue you identified here:
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
Exactly. Israel was created without the consent of the people already living there, in the British Mandate of Palestine aka Palestine.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks
Imagine that Russia renames Crimea and declares it an independent country. Should Ukraine accept the “two state solution”? You cannot brush over the fundamental history of what happened.
You’re right, it is a modern issue, and this is it. It is not accepted by the people who were already living there and it never has been.
Of course in practice I don’t think anyone should be removed from their homes. The solution to this problem shouldn’t be more atrocities. But when we lose sight of the fundamental cause of the issue it’s easy to create this narrative like you just did that people should have welcomed the colonial creation with open arms, even after people were driven from their homes in the nakba and have never been able to return.
It was created with the consent of the sovereign power that controlled the territory. You don’t like that the British controlled the territory, take it up with them. Not Israel’s problem.
I am British and no, I do not like what the British did.
I just think it’s relevant 🤷♂️ obviously you don’t.
Again I would say the Russia / Crimea example is valid. If they (the sovereign power that controls the territory) created a new state there should Ukrainians accept it? Would you?
The difference is that in your scenario, there is a realistic path towards Ukraine getting is territory back.
In Israel, there is NO realistic path towards them EVER getting territory back from Israel.
So the question is, do you then let go of the past, and you’re hatred for the enemy, and focus on giving your kids a future will the possibility of prosperity under a new normal?
So if Russia had better equipment, training, army etc, on par with the US for example, so there was no realistic way they would ever get it back, or if other countries weren’t giving as much aid, then they should just accept the “two state solution”? Do you really think that?
In Israel, there is NO realistic path towards them EVER getting territory back from Israel.
Also I don’t really agree with this framing. Perhaps it’s not likely but Israel could acknowledge that people have been removed from their homes and allow Palestinians back into their towns with equal rights. Super easily. They could remove illegal settlements. Etc etc etc. These things are choices that it is totally possible for any compassionate human in a position of power to make.
I agree that this is not going to happen (lacking a compassionate human with sufficient power, maybe) but let’s not pretend such a thing is impossible.
Yes, I really, truly believe that if my choice was smaller country, with sovereignty, vs an unwinnable war with an overpowering force, I would ABSOLUTELY make peace so that my kid could grow up in a world with a chance of prospering.
Then the bullies get their way and everybody else just has to deal with it. It just doesn’t sit well with me.
They are the ones with the power to stop this and they are the ones who choose not to. I blame people fighting to be able to oppress others much more than I blame people wanting to fight for their freedom.
Israel was created because all the countries that the Jews lived in for some reason didn’t want them back and so the western superpowers stole land from Palestine to give to the Jews. No one gave them a choice. Why should their land be stolen because your holy book 1000 years ago says you used to live there?
You guys clearly fucked off and moved. That was your choice. Why should the current people have to lose their land because you all of the sudden wanted to come back?
Also why couldn’t the Jews keep living in the countries that they lived in prior to WW2?
It’s not like the entire population of those countries decided to leave and go somewhere else.
That’s what this whole debate is. Some people think that a few hundred years is far enough back but others insist we should think about what happened in 1000 BC. There is no “right” answer. We just need a way to stop people getting killed.
Respectfully, I disagree. While there are definitely religious zealots on both sides who will argue about historical rights, the vast majority of people involved look at this as strictly a modern-day issue.
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks who just barely survived a horrific atrocity that killed a third of their entire population.
That’s not too say that the Jews didn’t also commit atrocities by driving Arabs from their towns.
Just saying, the lack of compassion from the Arab countries was legendary. And they immediately tried to wipe Israel off the map.
For Israel’s entire existence, everything has been about survival, surrounded by genocidal neighbors. They do what they do because they’ve literally been under attack for their nation’s entire history.
I’d also love to see and send to hostilities, but Palestinians with their ZERO bargaining power have decided for decades that they will not agree to any peace deal that doesn’t destroy Israel.
The ball is in their court. Has been for a very long time.
Yeah sorry but I think the “modern day” part has an issue you identified here:
Exactly. Israel was created without the consent of the people already living there, in the British Mandate of Palestine aka Palestine.
Imagine that Russia renames Crimea and declares it an independent country. Should Ukraine accept the “two state solution”? You cannot brush over the fundamental history of what happened.
You’re right, it is a modern issue, and this is it. It is not accepted by the people who were already living there and it never has been.
Of course in practice I don’t think anyone should be removed from their homes. The solution to this problem shouldn’t be more atrocities. But when we lose sight of the fundamental cause of the issue it’s easy to create this narrative like you just did that people should have welcomed the colonial creation with open arms, even after people were driven from their homes in the nakba and have never been able to return.
It was created with the consent of the sovereign power that controlled the territory. You don’t like that the British controlled the territory, take it up with them. Not Israel’s problem.
I am British and no, I do not like what the British did.
I just think it’s relevant 🤷♂️ obviously you don’t.
Again I would say the Russia / Crimea example is valid. If they (the sovereign power that controls the territory) created a new state there should Ukrainians accept it? Would you?
The difference is that in your scenario, there is a realistic path towards Ukraine getting is territory back.
In Israel, there is NO realistic path towards them EVER getting territory back from Israel.
So the question is, do you then let go of the past, and you’re hatred for the enemy, and focus on giving your kids a future will the possibility of prosperity under a new normal?
For me, that would be a yes.
So if Russia had better equipment, training, army etc, on par with the US for example, so there was no realistic way they would ever get it back, or if other countries weren’t giving as much aid, then they should just accept the “two state solution”? Do you really think that?
Also I don’t really agree with this framing. Perhaps it’s not likely but Israel could acknowledge that people have been removed from their homes and allow Palestinians back into their towns with equal rights. Super easily. They could remove illegal settlements. Etc etc etc. These things are choices that it is totally possible for any compassionate human in a position of power to make.
I agree that this is not going to happen (lacking a compassionate human with sufficient power, maybe) but let’s not pretend such a thing is impossible.
Yes, I really, truly believe that if my choice was smaller country, with sovereignty, vs an unwinnable war with an overpowering force, I would ABSOLUTELY make peace so that my kid could grow up in a world with a chance of prospering.
It’s not even a hard decision.
Then the bullies get their way and everybody else just has to deal with it. It just doesn’t sit well with me.
They are the ones with the power to stop this and they are the ones who choose not to. I blame people fighting to be able to oppress others much more than I blame people wanting to fight for their freedom.
Israel was created because all the countries that the Jews lived in for some reason didn’t want them back and so the western superpowers stole land from Palestine to give to the Jews. No one gave them a choice. Why should their land be stolen because your holy book 1000 years ago says you used to live there?
You guys clearly fucked off and moved. That was your choice. Why should the current people have to lose their land because you all of the sudden wanted to come back?
Also why couldn’t the Jews keep living in the countries that they lived in prior to WW2?
It’s not like the entire population of those countries decided to leave and go somewhere else.
People still believe this? Ain’t no way.
Look at the first statement on the Wikipedia page of Zionism. When was it made?
What about the Balfour Declaration? C’mon, there is no way you’re this ignorant. I mean you even typed up a whole-ass paragraph.
The ball is in their court?
Yeah?
Yeah?
Just committed atrocities by driving Arabs from their towns, yeah?
Yeah?
Yeah?
“They just drove them.”
It’s always a treat seeing genocide-apologists trying to twist the narrative.
You just have to look at the date of Israel’s founding to understand that the Holocaust was the catalyst for it’s creation.