You can debate the merits of some work, you can debate the amount people are compensated for that work. But what is absolutely not debatable is that we actually need people to do work for us to contribute to function as a society. Some of that work that’s absolutely necessary is both dangerous and nigh impossible to automate. Do we need another Starbucks? No, absolutely not. But we will still need places to be built, and infrastructure maintained. There’s really no escaping that.
That’s why it’s a basic income. Enough to keep you housed, clothed and fed. Your clothes might be thrifted, your apartment small, and your diet mostly instant ramen, but your basic needs will be covered. Plenty of people would still work hard to get more than the basics.
Guaranteed housing, guaranteed food, guaranteed clothing. No work required. I agree with you, I think most people will still work with all of that taken care of. Because it’s just basic.
That’s what a universal basic income does. It’s way simpler and more likely to succeed than a hundred different programs for everything people need. Studies show that poor people, when given money, don’t misuse it, like some would have you believe. They use it on things they need, but otherwise couldn’t afford, like housing, healthcare, car repairs, things like that. It’s even good for the economy
I’m sure there are already answers to this question l, but wouldn’t a basic universal income lead to some inflation/price rises?
I live in the most expensive city in my country and rent is insane. It’s not about finding a cheaper apartment or a smaller one because there are none or you won’t get them. They are not taking in a family of three into less than a three room apartment and sometimes even three room apartments are considered too small for a family with one little kid. And to be clear, if you are long term unemployed, the government pays for your housing. Theoretically. You still have to find a suitable apartment and there.are.none.
I would much rather have someone provide me guaranteed housing for free than to fear that my basic universal income will at some point not even be enough to cover my rent, even if it is just “basic”. But to me, “basic” in this sense would equal survival. It would mean housing, food, healthcare. I much rather take these things directly than make use of a small amount of money that will always be too little and end up having to choose between the cheapest cereal or the cheapest bread because I cannot afford both this month. Money and freedom to spend it as you wish is great, but I just cannot imagine how this would work. Apartments won’t magically keep their prices or appear out of thin air.
I’m sorry if this comment is too focused on housing, it is just the most anxiety evoking example I have. (And also we are moving in two weeks so maybe I am a bit preoccupied.)
It would lead to increased demand for goods poor people consume, and decreased demand for goods rich people consume. It’s a continual wealth transfer down the hierarchy.
In the short run the increased demand would probably lead to increased prices. In the longer run it would lead to more market investment, more production, more innovation, and by those two factors, lower prices.
Now if your basic income takes the form of newly printed money, that’s a whole new thing and would suck a lot.
It can be good, and there are parts of the developed world where public housing is not only abundant, but decent. And it has a cooling effect on the housing market, making all housing more affordable for everyone.
If we provide, decent, low cost housing to enough, everyone that needs housing prices to come down benefit.
That’s the crux of the matter. It’s easy to say “there’s no reason it has to turn out that way”, but there actually are some reasons for that to be the case. There’s a theory about how that works and that theory’s predictions hold up pretty good in reality.
More importantly than the theory (which involves modeling people as responding to incentives), imo, is the basic understanding that the world is far more complex than any person understands. This means that statements of the form “There is no X” aren’t very well founded.
Saying “There’s no reason that it has to be” is one of those statements, which asserts the non-existence of a thing, as if the entire space where that thing might exist has been thoroughly explored and mapped.
The way politics and society are presented in school, it’s often like a empty room. One could say “is there a chair in this room”? You look around the room. Potted plant, small rug, bicycle, no chair. Done.
But reality is more like a room of unknown size that’s absolutely full of stuff. You can’t see very far, you can’t inventory the room without massive undertaking to move all the stuff.
Saying “there’s no chair in this room” is less well-founded in that second room. It’s less wise to say that in that second room, where you can’t see everything.
Well, society is ultra complex. Group behavior is ultra complex. Construction projects are ultra complex. Politics is ultra complex. You shouldn’t just glance over all that complexity and say “nothing in there that behaves like X, no sir”.
So (a) some people think there are very concrete and predictable reasons why it has to be bad, and (b) others don’t know what reasons are operating, and accept that it’s beyond their comprehension, but look at the outcomes so far, and it certainly looks like there’s a reason it has to be.
The reason UBI is better than that is it still allows market forces to operate on those goods, improving them over time due to competition and innovation.
Also if someone wants to use their housing money for extra clothes instead and just couch surf, they should be allowed to do that. Granting money provides freedom of choice with it.
Who says the market can’t operate there? Providing a basic version of anything doesn’t mean an organization can’t compete. They just have to compete with basic. Most people will want something better.
It’ll increase demand, which should in theory increase wages for those jobs. A universal basic income is “basic” in the sense that it’s the minimum to survive in society. There will still be plenty of people who want more and are therefore willing to do those jobs.
Except that people will only pay so much for a cup of coffee. So how much do you need to pay a retail employee to come back to work over what ubi pays and how much will the products rise in cost to off set that
Sounds like you just identified a business that shouldn’t exist. If a company can’t afford to pay people what they need to survive, and still make a profit, the company needs to change, or shut down. That’s supposed to be the essence of the free market
And now think of the ripple effect of all the jobs lost when places like Starbucks go out of business and restaurants go out of business. Then construction sites and so on.
how much do you need to pay a retail employee to come back to work
Probably a lot less than you’d think. With UBI there’s no need for a minimum wage so if you’re offering a great work environment you could pay next to nothing for labor. If the job that needs done is inherently shitty you might have to pay more, but that’s already how it is for quite a few things.
This, and also working part time would become a lot more feasible. I would imagine there would be quite a bit of pressure to improve working conditions as well, which wouldn’t exactly be a bad thing. A lot more hours would be spent on things people consider meaningful, and bullshit jobs would have to be compensated appropriately, which to me feels like a win for society collectively.
One caveat though is that for abolishing minimum wages to be safe the UBI has to be high enough to be actually livable, and would likely be a target of constant politicking. A model I’ve been thinking about would be to set the level of UBI as a percentage of GDP, distributed evenly across the population, which to me would feel fair but may have practical issues I don’t see. It would create a sense of everyone benefiting from collective success, which appeals to me.
I think you will find that people will leave low end jobs in mass. Those willing to stay will ask for salaries that are extremely high and then those on ubi will be able to afford even less than before it existed
Probably someone who sees a causal connection between unpleasant work and pleasant outcomes later.
I mean if work was an end unto itself it doesn’t make much sense to go do things you don’t feel like doing. But once you connect the present moment of facing unpleasantness to the future payoff of the work, it makes more sense.
Most office work for company conglomerate X? Completely useless to society. The whole of Wall Street? Completely useless to society. In fact, most jobs in any field which isn’t STEM R&D are largely superfluous. So, what was your point again?
“Artists” make everything you touch or look at. Unless you define “artist” as someone who drinks all day, and whips paint at blank canvass.
UI-UX artists design the way programs look and function. Game artists build the worlds we play in. Architecture. Indoor decor. Even the cool looking rug you got at IKEA… designed by an industrial artist.
We are everywhere. Coming up with cool looking phones, apps, OSes, and yes, sculptures and paintings too. So you’re right, there is work to be done. There is so much skill and investment into the life of artist. You’d know if you ever spent a day in their shoes.
You say that like that would be bad.
Who fights for having people in braindead jobs, working unsafe conditions, Christ almighty. Check please.
You can debate the merits of some work, you can debate the amount people are compensated for that work. But what is absolutely not debatable is that we actually need people to do work for us to contribute to function as a society. Some of that work that’s absolutely necessary is both dangerous and nigh impossible to automate. Do we need another Starbucks? No, absolutely not. But we will still need places to be built, and infrastructure maintained. There’s really no escaping that.
That’s why it’s a basic income. Enough to keep you housed, clothed and fed. Your clothes might be thrifted, your apartment small, and your diet mostly instant ramen, but your basic needs will be covered. Plenty of people would still work hard to get more than the basics.
Why not just guarantee those things for everyone?
Guaranteed housing, guaranteed food, guaranteed clothing. No work required. I agree with you, I think most people will still work with all of that taken care of. Because it’s just basic.
That’s what a universal basic income does. It’s way simpler and more likely to succeed than a hundred different programs for everything people need. Studies show that poor people, when given money, don’t misuse it, like some would have you believe. They use it on things they need, but otherwise couldn’t afford, like housing, healthcare, car repairs, things like that. It’s even good for the economy
I’m sure there are already answers to this question l, but wouldn’t a basic universal income lead to some inflation/price rises?
I live in the most expensive city in my country and rent is insane. It’s not about finding a cheaper apartment or a smaller one because there are none or you won’t get them. They are not taking in a family of three into less than a three room apartment and sometimes even three room apartments are considered too small for a family with one little kid. And to be clear, if you are long term unemployed, the government pays for your housing. Theoretically. You still have to find a suitable apartment and there.are.none.
I would much rather have someone provide me guaranteed housing for free than to fear that my basic universal income will at some point not even be enough to cover my rent, even if it is just “basic”. But to me, “basic” in this sense would equal survival. It would mean housing, food, healthcare. I much rather take these things directly than make use of a small amount of money that will always be too little and end up having to choose between the cheapest cereal or the cheapest bread because I cannot afford both this month. Money and freedom to spend it as you wish is great, but I just cannot imagine how this would work. Apartments won’t magically keep their prices or appear out of thin air.
I’m sorry if this comment is too focused on housing, it is just the most anxiety evoking example I have. (And also we are moving in two weeks so maybe I am a bit preoccupied.)
It would lead to increased demand for goods poor people consume, and decreased demand for goods rich people consume. It’s a continual wealth transfer down the hierarchy.
In the short run the increased demand would probably lead to increased prices. In the longer run it would lead to more market investment, more production, more innovation, and by those two factors, lower prices.
Now if your basic income takes the form of newly printed money, that’s a whole new thing and would suck a lot.
I am sure there is an official answer, but I am going to wing it.
Inflation is from too much money chasing too few goods.
UBI will free you from having to live in a specific place. Or if not you, some of your neighbors.
Guaranteed housing tends to be shitty. Think of the worst people running the program and them hitting the lowest standards most times.
With money, you can decide the housing trade-offs. Save money on rent and spend more elsewhere, or the reverse. With money, you have flexibility.
Except there’s no reason it needs to be.
It can be good, and there are parts of the developed world where public housing is not only abundant, but decent. And it has a cooling effect on the housing market, making all housing more affordable for everyone.
If we provide, decent, low cost housing to enough, everyone that needs housing prices to come down benefit.
That’s the crux of the matter. It’s easy to say “there’s no reason it has to turn out that way”, but there actually are some reasons for that to be the case. There’s a theory about how that works and that theory’s predictions hold up pretty good in reality.
More importantly than the theory (which involves modeling people as responding to incentives), imo, is the basic understanding that the world is far more complex than any person understands. This means that statements of the form “There is no X” aren’t very well founded.
Saying “There’s no reason that it has to be” is one of those statements, which asserts the non-existence of a thing, as if the entire space where that thing might exist has been thoroughly explored and mapped.
The way politics and society are presented in school, it’s often like a empty room. One could say “is there a chair in this room”? You look around the room. Potted plant, small rug, bicycle, no chair. Done.
But reality is more like a room of unknown size that’s absolutely full of stuff. You can’t see very far, you can’t inventory the room without massive undertaking to move all the stuff.
Saying “there’s no chair in this room” is less well-founded in that second room. It’s less wise to say that in that second room, where you can’t see everything.
Well, society is ultra complex. Group behavior is ultra complex. Construction projects are ultra complex. Politics is ultra complex. You shouldn’t just glance over all that complexity and say “nothing in there that behaves like X, no sir”.
So (a) some people think there are very concrete and predictable reasons why it has to be bad, and (b) others don’t know what reasons are operating, and accept that it’s beyond their comprehension, but look at the outcomes so far, and it certainly looks like there’s a reason it has to be.
I wonder how they operationalized the proper or misuse of money in those studies.
The reason UBI is better than that is it still allows market forces to operate on those goods, improving them over time due to competition and innovation.
Also if someone wants to use their housing money for extra clothes instead and just couch surf, they should be allowed to do that. Granting money provides freedom of choice with it.
Who says the market can’t operate there? Providing a basic version of anything doesn’t mean an organization can’t compete. They just have to compete with basic. Most people will want something better.
It will still get done.
Who would work at Starbucks if you get a living wage making shitty art ?
Is there even a quota needed in this? Can I make one piece of art a week that takes ten minutes and I get my living wage ?
Why would I work 40 hours dealing with any customer. Why would I work in a field picking crops or at a construction site ?
I’ll join hunter Biden making blow art and getting g paid
It’ll increase demand, which should in theory increase wages for those jobs. A universal basic income is “basic” in the sense that it’s the minimum to survive in society. There will still be plenty of people who want more and are therefore willing to do those jobs.
Except that people will only pay so much for a cup of coffee. So how much do you need to pay a retail employee to come back to work over what ubi pays and how much will the products rise in cost to off set that
Sounds like you just identified a business that shouldn’t exist. If a company can’t afford to pay people what they need to survive, and still make a profit, the company needs to change, or shut down. That’s supposed to be the essence of the free market
But it’s not a free market if the government is giving money to non workers.
FYI this will effect all business across the board.
If people will only pay so much for a cup of coffee, that’s capitalist for “coffee ain’t that big a deal”.
And now think of the ripple effect of all the jobs lost when places like Starbucks go out of business and restaurants go out of business. Then construction sites and so on.
Lmao no. People will still want to eat out, and will still want things built. Get real.
Probably a lot less than you’d think. With UBI there’s no need for a minimum wage so if you’re offering a great work environment you could pay next to nothing for labor. If the job that needs done is inherently shitty you might have to pay more, but that’s already how it is for quite a few things.
This, and also working part time would become a lot more feasible. I would imagine there would be quite a bit of pressure to improve working conditions as well, which wouldn’t exactly be a bad thing. A lot more hours would be spent on things people consider meaningful, and bullshit jobs would have to be compensated appropriately, which to me feels like a win for society collectively.
One caveat though is that for abolishing minimum wages to be safe the UBI has to be high enough to be actually livable, and would likely be a target of constant politicking. A model I’ve been thinking about would be to set the level of UBI as a percentage of GDP, distributed evenly across the population, which to me would feel fair but may have practical issues I don’t see. It would create a sense of everyone benefiting from collective success, which appeals to me.
I think you will find that people will leave low end jobs in mass. Those willing to stay will ask for salaries that are extremely high and then those on ubi will be able to afford even less than before it existed
Thanks for announcing your single digit IQ on this topic so everyone is aware. Excellent work.
Wow what an insult. Good job
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I dont see any burns. Should I go ask your mom to llay doctor and make sure ?
Citation needed.
As if that’s a worthy goal.
Says the guy who literally advocate the enslavement of the majority of the human race. Where even if your line, my guy?
2 edgy 4 me m8
So your ok if your garbage does not get taken out or if that many less people want to be doctors and nurses?
Probably someone who sees a causal connection between unpleasant work and pleasant outcomes later.
I mean if work was an end unto itself it doesn’t make much sense to go do things you don’t feel like doing. But once you connect the present moment of facing unpleasantness to the future payoff of the work, it makes more sense.
Most office work for company conglomerate X? Completely useless to society. The whole of Wall Street? Completely useless to society. In fact, most jobs in any field which isn’t STEM R&D are largely superfluous. So, what was your point again?
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We got fat on the third world and people think we can just say “fuck you, got mine” to the rest of the planet.
“Artists” make everything you touch or look at. Unless you define “artist” as someone who drinks all day, and whips paint at blank canvass.
UI-UX artists design the way programs look and function. Game artists build the worlds we play in. Architecture. Indoor decor. Even the cool looking rug you got at IKEA… designed by an industrial artist.
We are everywhere. Coming up with cool looking phones, apps, OSes, and yes, sculptures and paintings too. So you’re right, there is work to be done. There is so much skill and investment into the life of artist. You’d know if you ever spent a day in their shoes.
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I do not. Why don’t you tell us what an artist is in your opinion.