I personally don’t really think racism/homophobia are that comparable. Being trans is something that requires other people to participate in. The former situations do not. In order to believe that transgender women are women, you need to believe that woman does not mean adult human female. That’s where a lot of the fundamental disagreements arise from.
Maybe if the US didn’t have a long history of ignoring intersex gene configurations, and letting doctors assign gender to infants with ambiguous gonads, including gender assignment surgery.
We already know that gender needs to be adjusted medically, say in cases of precocious puberty. This is applying the same techniques to persons who identify as someone other than they present.
And yes, we’d reduce the problem if human societies didn’t treat men and women so disparately, and freak out when little Joey is undressing Barbie.
Sure, I don’t want anyone to feel aggressed. But I think things get tricky when you start talking about topics like trans women in female sports, in female jails, etc
I personally try and avoid any discussion about that, so I don’t have to take a stance.
I have nothing against Trans people, but I recognize that it could be a problem in sports. Fortunately I don’t care about sports, so I don’t have to figure out if it’s a problem or not.
For jails, maybe start with a prison that’s respecting the persons identification and if (and only if) trouble arises, you could move them elsewhere.
And gendered bathrooms just seem stupid imo. Do mixed bathrooms with real walls (like we often do here) instead of shitty stalls and put urinals in a separate walled off section towards the back or something.
The entire, “adult human female,” argument is BS. Trans women are clearly both adults and humans, there’s no debate around that. It’s the female part that people get hung up on. It’s the assumption that gender is defined by sex, which isn’t how humans think about things on an intuitive level.
When you see a person with all the outward characters of a woman, most people, especially most conservatives, simply label that person in their head as a woman. In most societies we rarely see each others genitals, and often can’t fully make out certain markers of woman or manhood due to clothes or masks, worn for practical or cultural reasons. In fact, most apparel isn’t inherently gendered outside of cultural context, as dresses, pants, makeup, and countless other fashionable displays have been gendered very differently through history, even in the English speaking world. When you categorize someone as a woman in almost all circumstances, you use “female” to denote gender, not sex.
If you recognize the empirical reality of how humans use the word female, you realize that sex is almost irrelevant for most uses of the term. Trans women get recognized as female all the time by people, and because female is both a term to denote gender and to denote sex, insisting those people are only male once you learn their, “sex,” is not only a rude thing to do, but also objectively wrong. Trans women are often undeniably adult human females, so pretending the definition is incompatible with Trans women is a lie.
The thing you might have a problem with is people that don’t pass being referred to as female, but this isn’t an absolute truth either. Tons of cis women identify as women and are of the female sex, but don’t get gendered as female by many people. The same is true for some cis men, and while there are less of them due to social stigma against femininity, male failing cis men do exist. Almost no one insists that butch women are men for their male gender presentation, or that femboys are women for female presentation. Conservatives might demonize these people as, “abnormal freaks,” and people that gatekeep trans identities might get very uncomfortable, but I’ve yet to see them insist that GNC folks are the gender they most present.
As a trans person who often doesn’t pass as my gender identity, it’s frustrating when others complain about people like me inconveniencing them. I’m sorry interacting with me challenges your contradictory worldview as I know critical thought takes effort. I want to pass to everyone, but not because I want to put anyone’s mind at ease. I want to look like a woman because it makes me happy, while feeling like a man makes me miserable.
I’m sorry that the unavoidable reality of cultural change makes you unhappy, but there has always been change and will always be change. All manner of changes in our lives are more extreme right now. The change might be more drastic than at any point in history, but no one chooses where or when they are born. It is wise to make the most of the hand you’re dealt instead of demanding a reroll than cannot happen. You can change neither the past or present, but you can shape the future.
It’s impossible to actually rid the world of trans people, so the tension between the outdated gender ideology of the past and material reality will always exist. Instead of attempting an impossible task or burying your head in the sand, find a consistent worldview and learn to live with us. Everyone should learn to peacefully exist with benign difference in others.
Trans women are clearly both adults and humans, there’s no debate around that. It’s the female part that people get hung up on. It’s the assumption that gender is defined by sex, which isn’t how humans think about things on an intuitive level.
The “not being female” part is exactly what holds people up about calling them woman.
When you categorize someone as a woman in almost all circumstances, you use “female” to denote gender, not sex.
I don’t believe this is true at all. It would be weird to call women “females” in most circumstances. Your entire long comment pretty much serves to argue that female doesn’t mean what it actually means. It reads like a bunch of woo woo to me.
Sex is very important in human relationships. It’s how we procreate, which is the basis for the evolution of human sexuality. That much cannot be denied. Until very recently, there was no distinction between gender in sex. And don’t bring up some random old tribe having a third gender hundreds of years ago as proof, you can find an cultures who believed nearly anything and exceptions don’t prove the rule.
I believe that you can be a feminine man, dress how you want, and play whatever role you want, but that does not mean you are a female/woman. I would not try to challenge anyone to their face but don’t be surprised why I don’t truly believe that they are a woman.
Why don’t you read up on the medical consensus and make an effort to understand gender dysphoria? If you really care, you would participate in the conversation with a genuine interest and understanding. It seems you are more invested in confirming your biases instead. The medical research has evolved way past the surface level analysis you will find on Lemmy or Reddit.
The medical consensus is just as much about our understanding of the symptoms underlying issues as much as the treatment. The issue is your “belief” system of what falls in the categories you described. I’ll ask you how you define the female gender. Give us a working definition and let’s see where we disagree.
Ok. You’re free to dismiss uncomfortable ideas as woo woo and cling to what feels right rather than what’s true till the day you die. So long as you don’t become bitter and lash out as the world passes you by, have fun.
I personally don’t really think racism/homophobia are that comparable. Being trans is something that requires other people to participate in. The former situations do not. In order to believe that transgender women are women, you need to believe that woman does not mean adult human female. That’s where a lot of the fundamental disagreements arise from.
Maybe if the US didn’t have a long history of ignoring intersex gene configurations, and letting doctors assign gender to infants with ambiguous gonads, including gender assignment surgery.
We already know that gender needs to be adjusted medically, say in cases of precocious puberty. This is applying the same techniques to persons who identify as someone other than they present.
And yes, we’d reduce the problem if human societies didn’t treat men and women so disparately, and freak out when little Joey is undressing Barbie.
In most cases it doesn’t matter what you believe though. The bare minimum of not being aggressive and transphobic would be great for a lot of people.
Sure, I don’t want anyone to feel aggressed. But I think things get tricky when you start talking about topics like trans women in female sports, in female jails, etc
That’s true.
I personally try and avoid any discussion about that, so I don’t have to take a stance.
I have nothing against Trans people, but I recognize that it could be a problem in sports. Fortunately I don’t care about sports, so I don’t have to figure out if it’s a problem or not.
For jails, maybe start with a prison that’s respecting the persons identification and if (and only if) trouble arises, you could move them elsewhere.
And gendered bathrooms just seem stupid imo. Do mixed bathrooms with real walls (like we often do here) instead of shitty stalls and put urinals in a separate walled off section towards the back or something.
The entire, “adult human female,” argument is BS. Trans women are clearly both adults and humans, there’s no debate around that. It’s the female part that people get hung up on. It’s the assumption that gender is defined by sex, which isn’t how humans think about things on an intuitive level.
When you see a person with all the outward characters of a woman, most people, especially most conservatives, simply label that person in their head as a woman. In most societies we rarely see each others genitals, and often can’t fully make out certain markers of woman or manhood due to clothes or masks, worn for practical or cultural reasons. In fact, most apparel isn’t inherently gendered outside of cultural context, as dresses, pants, makeup, and countless other fashionable displays have been gendered very differently through history, even in the English speaking world. When you categorize someone as a woman in almost all circumstances, you use “female” to denote gender, not sex.
If you recognize the empirical reality of how humans use the word female, you realize that sex is almost irrelevant for most uses of the term. Trans women get recognized as female all the time by people, and because female is both a term to denote gender and to denote sex, insisting those people are only male once you learn their, “sex,” is not only a rude thing to do, but also objectively wrong. Trans women are often undeniably adult human females, so pretending the definition is incompatible with Trans women is a lie.
The thing you might have a problem with is people that don’t pass being referred to as female, but this isn’t an absolute truth either. Tons of cis women identify as women and are of the female sex, but don’t get gendered as female by many people. The same is true for some cis men, and while there are less of them due to social stigma against femininity, male failing cis men do exist. Almost no one insists that butch women are men for their male gender presentation, or that femboys are women for female presentation. Conservatives might demonize these people as, “abnormal freaks,” and people that gatekeep trans identities might get very uncomfortable, but I’ve yet to see them insist that GNC folks are the gender they most present.
As a trans person who often doesn’t pass as my gender identity, it’s frustrating when others complain about people like me inconveniencing them. I’m sorry interacting with me challenges your contradictory worldview as I know critical thought takes effort. I want to pass to everyone, but not because I want to put anyone’s mind at ease. I want to look like a woman because it makes me happy, while feeling like a man makes me miserable.
I’m sorry that the unavoidable reality of cultural change makes you unhappy, but there has always been change and will always be change. All manner of changes in our lives are more extreme right now. The change might be more drastic than at any point in history, but no one chooses where or when they are born. It is wise to make the most of the hand you’re dealt instead of demanding a reroll than cannot happen. You can change neither the past or present, but you can shape the future.
It’s impossible to actually rid the world of trans people, so the tension between the outdated gender ideology of the past and material reality will always exist. Instead of attempting an impossible task or burying your head in the sand, find a consistent worldview and learn to live with us. Everyone should learn to peacefully exist with benign difference in others.
The “not being female” part is exactly what holds people up about calling them woman.
I don’t believe this is true at all. It would be weird to call women “females” in most circumstances. Your entire long comment pretty much serves to argue that female doesn’t mean what it actually means. It reads like a bunch of woo woo to me.
Sex is very important in human relationships. It’s how we procreate, which is the basis for the evolution of human sexuality. That much cannot be denied. Until very recently, there was no distinction between gender in sex. And don’t bring up some random old tribe having a third gender hundreds of years ago as proof, you can find an cultures who believed nearly anything and exceptions don’t prove the rule.
I believe that you can be a feminine man, dress how you want, and play whatever role you want, but that does not mean you are a female/woman. I would not try to challenge anyone to their face but don’t be surprised why I don’t truly believe that they are a woman.
Why don’t you read up on the medical consensus and make an effort to understand gender dysphoria? If you really care, you would participate in the conversation with a genuine interest and understanding. It seems you are more invested in confirming your biases instead. The medical research has evolved way past the surface level analysis you will find on Lemmy or Reddit.
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The medical consensus is just as much about our understanding of the symptoms underlying issues as much as the treatment. The issue is your “belief” system of what falls in the categories you described. I’ll ask you how you define the female gender. Give us a working definition and let’s see where we disagree.
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Ok. You’re free to dismiss uncomfortable ideas as woo woo and cling to what feels right rather than what’s true till the day you die. So long as you don’t become bitter and lash out as the world passes you by, have fun.
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