By Alice Cuddy BBC News, Jerusalem
The call to Mahmoud Shaheen came at dawn.
It was Thursday 19 October at about 06:30, and Israel had been bombing Gaza for 12 days straight.
He’d been in his third-floor, three-bedroom flat in al-Zahra, a middle-class area in the north of the Gaza Strip. Until now, it had been largely untouched by air strikes.
He’d heard a rising clamour outside. People were screaming. “You need to escape,” somebody in the street shouted, “because they will bomb the towers”.
Everytime I read an article like this, my immediate reaction is posting a comment expressing my disgust with the Israeli State’s actions and everytime I hesitate because I don’t want to suffer the inevitable wave of people defending the Israeli State’s actions as somehow justifiable because Hamas did something vile first.
It’s a continuing cycle of violence and the Israeli State holds a humongous power advantage. They don’t use that power disparity to deescalate and integrate the Palestinian people to prevent Hamas from having support. Instead they do shit like this where they drive Palestinians straight into Hamas’ hands, because the Palestinian people are given no other option to turn to.
Your last point is why I feel like what Israel is doing is just straight up illogical, even from a purely selfish point of view. The only thing they are doing here is basically proving Hamas “right” in the eyes of many Gazans, and fueling a fervent desire for revenge. If someone living in Gaza wasn’t already a terrorist, they sure as hell are much much more likely to be one now.
Imagine how you would feel if your home and possibly moved ones were bombed like this, losing you everything or nearly everything you hold dear. You lose autonomy over your own life, you lose your independence and rights. I imagine it feels a lot like losing rights as a minority, or something like getting an abortion becoming illegal, turned to the extreme. And these things being threatened to be done to me already cause me to feel strong contempt against the perpetrators. If pushed far enough, things like this would cause me to become a “terrorist”, in the sense of being willing to strongly resist it in an attempt to maintain my rights and autonomy.
But of course, whether I would be called a terrorist or not depends on how it’s framed, and how much compassion or understanding people would give me. Hell, in the US LGBTQ+ activists, or anti-racist/anti-fascist activists are already called terrorists sometimes.
Their plan is to eliminate all Palestinians and take their land. The more each side escalates, the closer they can get to that; sure, some Israeli may die, but that gives them justification to exterminate scores of Palestinians every time.
There are three lenses through which the Israeli government’s actions make sense:
They are supremacists who were looking for an excuse to escalate an ethnic cleansing they have no way to complete without a goddamn good framing for the Western press.
They’re a far right government looking to appease far right voters who only want to solve a blood conflict with more blood, and never by taking advantage of their superior position to force de-escalation. These are politicians merely trying to conserve their own seats, no matter ethical considerations or what’s good for their country.
Racism, ethnic supremacism, religious bigotry, emotional meltdowns and the unability to see a conflict in any other way than seeing you as the first and last victim are all great ingredients to enter into a spiral of terribly irrational decisions. All of these ingredients are present in the Israeli government and in a good portion of Israeli society.
So instead Israel kills 11K, and counting, razing to the ground entire neighbourhoods, causing humanitarian catastrophe while refusing any mention of humanitarian ceasefire or even pauses to let aid inside the enclave.
How noble of them. And by looking at the numbers of casualties and injured on both sides you will see the big picture that this is happening for years and years.
Out of sight, out of mind.
Look how many Iraqis were killed during desert storm 1&2 - makes this look like a picnic.
Oh, well I guess if someone else has already been evil before, being evil now must be okay then…
They’re so tired of it that Mossad allowed the attack on the festival so they’d have an excuse to carpet bomb Gaza.
If they were carpet bombing Gaza there would be 200,000 dead civilians.
Thinking that murdering 10.000 innocent civilians is justified because a terrorist organization murdered/kindapped over 1.500 is psychotic. Get help.
First, there is zero information on the number of civilian deaths vs. Hamas deaths, they are all lumped together in that 10,000 number, so good job parroting Hamas propaganda. Second, here is what you sound like to me: “Thinking that murdering 500,000 innocent German civilians* is justified because the Nazi’s murdered/kidnapped a few Jews is psychotic. Get help.”
*The number killed in WW2, in case you’re wondering.
Contemporary historiography agrees that bombing civilian population during WWII didn’t contribute to actually winning the war, so congratulations on backing your psychotic position with your ignorance.
Starting to think you’re just an antisemitic troll. Blocked.
Hating the Zionist regime in charge of Israel != Being antisemitic.
There is data on civilian deaths, but not any recent data since there is no way it can be reliably verified.
I think in the eyes of the Government it makes a lot of sense to act the way they do, it’s a great casus belli that has been dropped into their lap to ‘finally’ wipe out Gaza.
No, what Israel is doing makes sense from a strictly selfish point of view.
The question of ‘Why doesn’t Israel integrate the Palestinians?’ is a good one. The answer is numbers.
Israel was founded as a Jewish ethnostate. Those who have immigrated there have done so because they wanted to live in a Jewish ethnostate. So one of the core values of the country is that it is primarily a place for Jews.
If Israel absorbed the populations of Gaza and the West Bank into Israel, the Jewish population would become a minority in Israel if not immediately then within a generation.
I don’t agree with the idea of ethnostates in general and I do believe establishing Israel as one was a mistake.
… But if you imagine the viewpoint of someone who does want a Jewish ethnostate like so many in Israel you can see why this solution is a non starter.
Worse than that, it’s become a Palestinian vs. Jewish ethnostate competition:
Israel has integrated what, 1.6 million Palestinians I to it’s society?
Something like that, yes.
It’s because their corrupt far-right government wants to wipe out Palestinians. That’s their end goal apparently.
I just hope enough decent people both Palestinian and Israeli get the fuck out of there before the genocide shit show truly begins.
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A bit of a sidenote but I think you’ll be very happy about Hamas’ stance on abortion or lgbtq+ rights
If you think that user is defending Hamas you’ve completely lost the plot.
In a discussion about Hamas vs Israel, they are saying they understand people resorting to terrorism because they sorta understand how it feels to have their human rights oppressed. I don’t think one can’t mention the irony that the main organisation which had to resort to terrorism in this conflict would not hesitate to kill the above poster for demanding exactly the human rights they cited.
But thanks for keeping the focus!
There’s a difference in understanding and supporting, or considering something morally correct.
As another example: I understand why some folks get sucked into gangs. If someone grows up in a crumbling school system, falls through the holes in whatever is left of a social safety net, has no proper familial support, and sees nothing but violence and economic despair day-to-day, joining a gang suddenly becomes a viable path to prosperity. Exceedingly dangerous, but this hypothetical teen can look around and see they’re likely to have a shit future regardless, so why not take that chance, right?
So this isn’t me saying that I support gang violence, but I can understand why it happens. Which is why my politics are what they are: we don’t need to just beat the shit out of gang members in the streets, but give folks support so they don’t feel like joining a gang is the only way to survive.
The other poster is (I think) making a similar kind of argument. What the fuck else is some kid in that situation going to grow up to be? Some folks will make it out alright, sure: but on the whole it’s a recipe for despair, which often leads to horrific acts. It doesn’t make the acts right, but we can understand a little more about the why.
Yes that’s all very rational.
But I was talking about the irony. It’s like if in your example someone would say they could imagine themselves joining a gang by comparing the life in the ghetto to the oppression they themselves felt because they couldn’t bring their puppy to school, but with the added spice that the real life gang the hypothetical discussion was originally about runs a side business of stealing, raping and skinning puppies.
I had read your initial comment as insinuating the previous commenter was supporting hamas, and when someone directly challenged you on it, you didn’t reject that accusation.
So if you just wanted to point out the irony, consider my comment as much a non sequitor as your comment on its irony, which is - I suppose - at least irony-adjacent in itself.
Terrorism is never the way
Fuck all leftists terrorist apologizers
Do you get mad at geologists for explaining why volcanoes erupt and kill people?
They’re called eruptopologists
Most terrorists since 1980 are right wing. How do you feel about them?
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Whatabout what your mom does, down by the docks at night?
Getting sucked off by your dad while he’s humming Israel’s national anthem
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT)#Israel
Pretty funnysad that that quote is your only takeaway from that article
“Israel likes bringing it up to make Hamas look bad so let’s just pretend it doesn’t happen”
May Hamas, the Israeli gov’t, and the IDF spend an eternity in Hell for the crimes they’ve committed against humanity and innocent civilians.
If the mods/admins want to ban me for saying that, feel free. I don’t want to be part to any group that supports and advocates for murders and war crimes.
Imagine trying to justify thousands of murdered children because some people decided to attack a festival.
An attack, I might add, the government had been informed of and bafflingly did the opposite of adding protection to heavy traffic areas…
That’s because Netanyahu has a long history of supporting Hamas for his own political gains.
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces, Times of Israel, 8 October 2023
The symbiotic relationship between Netanyahu and Hamas, The Hill, October 22, 2023
Why Netanyahu helped fund Hamas and how that backfired for Israel, India Today, November 1, 2023
Video: Ex-Saudi intel chief accuses Israel of ‘funnelling’ Qatari money to Hamas, India Today, October 31, 2023
How Netanyahu’s Hamas policy came back to haunt him — and Israel, CBC News, October 28, 2023
Liberman: Netanyahu sent Mossad head, general to Qatar, ‘begged’ it to pay Hamas, Times of Israel, February 20, 2022
Netanyahu: Money to Hamas part of strategy to keep Palestinians divided, Jerusalem Post, March 12, 2019
Whew, thanks for the links. So much blood on Bibi’s hands.
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Didnt they attacked kibboutz ?
I posted this article even though I nominally support what Israel is doing here. This war has a legitimate human cost and there’s no reason to belive that reasonable people will never view that cost as too high.
I think the story painted here shows both the horrid cost on civilian life that these bombings have and the extensive efforts to avoid civilian casualties that the IDF takes.
Short of an Jeff Bezos takeover of Gaza to turn it into the world’s biggest Amazon warehouse, I literally don’t know what could possibly solve the situation. It’s clear from the cheering crowds praising raped corpses that there’s too much hatred to reasonably integrate Gaza into greater Israel. And it’s clear from the massive terror the Muslim Brotherhood caused in Egypt, that they could never integrate into an Egyptian society . And is clear from the 4-6x Marshall Plan per person they’ve received in aid that aid to Gaza is a black hole that will never lead to a thriving society. After 2004 I remember this optimism and a belief that this Israel/Palestine thing was really back on pace for a 2 state solution. And now I just don’t see it.
Some solution has to be found. If Israel just empties Palestine of Palestinians and claims it all as Israel, that won’t give them the safety they want from attacks by nutters. The crazy thing that is, there are right wing nutters in Israel wanting to exactly that. Ethnic cleansing is no way to peace. Even the US won’t support them doing that. Even doing it salami slicing with nutty settlers isn’t going unnoticed.
There needs to be a justice system to deal with nutters. You can’t deal with harsh collective punishment. It’s a nutters response that just creates more nutters on the other side. Which nutters of the side partly want to justify their own nuttiness and to create more of them on their own side.
I don’t think that goal this time is to evict Palestinians from Gaza. I think the goal is simply to try to get a “new deal.” Most terrorist organizations aren’t as evil, incompetent and aren’t as ridiculous as Hamas is. I mean imagine how much better Gaza would be with a Taliban-esque leadership group in charge. Or even just a leadership group physically located in Gaza.
Like how many jihadists can really be left in Gaza? At some point, they’ve got to run out of these idiots.
There are some who are calling for it to be the end of Palestinians. Nuking them and other means of clearing the land.
You never run out of idiots. They will be coming to Palestinian to fight. Young men are prone to look for causes to fight for and there is a real injustice happening to Palestine.
Israel can’t just kill it’s way to peace. No justice, no peace.
Hamas aren’t helping the Palestinian cause either because they are clearly terrorist nutters.
Oh I’m sure there are some people at that point on the Israeli political spectrum. I just don’t think the ruling coalition is there.
It doesn’t take much sanity to see nuking would be a terrible idea.
It doesn’t take much sanity to see that attacking your much larger and stronger neighbor and indiscriminately murdering their elderly and children and parading raped corpses through your streets would be a terrible idea. But we have idiots on both sides.
They are religious nutters, they don’t care about their own death, or the deaths of thousands of Palestinians. If anything, they want Israel to attack Palestine and kill thousands, and create rage that creates more Hamas. Hamas isn’t only fed by Palestinians. It can’t be defeated by military might. That’s like “the beatings will continue until morale improves”.
I think that wave has broken. They were a very vocal minority and some of them have been banned already.
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Most of the working class stands with Palestine.
Citation needed.
Where are the pro-Israel rallies?
The working class doesn’t go to rallies.
🤡
They don’t. They’re working.
Post it anyways and block all of the disgusting comments afterwards, you’ll be gradually cleaning up your Lemmy experience as you do
See, on one hand that seems like a good idea, but whilst people can have reprehensible views on one topic they might also have reasonable contributions for another.
Fair enough!
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Yeah but how else will they virtue signal
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Because I’m here to have constructive discussions? IDGAF about votes; I, unfortunately, give a fuck about having to deal with people like you and the above.
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You seem to be making points which don’t apply to me.
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Eh, I’m still learning a lot, and I’m sure other people are, too. Tbh, most people haven’t talked about this conflict, it was considered too “hot” and just a religious conflict. But I’ve learned more about the wrongs Israel has also committed from posts after the Oct 7 attack than I ever have before, and that it’s more than about religion, it’s about land and the quality of life for a peoples.
Although i wish more people would respond to criticism instead of downvote. For example, I think this person further up in the thread brings up a good point. At least this is better than just killing civilians unexpectedly and it lets them get at Hamas bases or rocket installations. Sucks that this person loses their house, but they need to get rid of Hamas who continues to threaten civilian lives, too. Maybe there’s some argument I’m not considering, but I wish people would say it instead of just downvote them.
The problem is that what he’s saying is not true at all. The IDF is just carpetbbombing Gaza at random. You can see the satalite images of Gaza being completely flattened. Even the Russians had far greater precision than this when attacking Ukraine.
The “Hamas forces them” narrative is always completely made up IDF propaganda. Israel tells people to go south. Then ISRAEL bombs the south. Palestinians don’t trust israel again (because they’re not morons). Then all the IDF trolls come in pretending Hamas forces innocent civilians to stay north.
Also the IDF intelligence recently bombed a car with a grandma and her 3 grandchildren in Lebanon. This should tell you how amazing their intelligence is before they decide to blow up a family.
… considering Russian doctrine is literally flatten the area with artillery, versus IDF precision airstrikes which the Russians were completely unable to do due to lack of air superiority let alone supremacy.
Carpet bombing is the complete and indiscriminate bombing of an area. I’ve seen no evidence of this. I have seen evidence - e.g. the above article as an excellent one - if precision bombing of multiple buildings across a wide area, whilst leaving neighbouring buildings relatively untouched.
I am not here to defend the IDF or the Israeli State, but using such obvious inaccuracies makes it an uphill struggle to appropriately criticise their real actions.
Your latter two points though I agree with broadly, though I don’t doubt Hamas does attempt to stop civilians from leaving conflict zones.
Both Hamas and the Israeli State are responsible for propogating this mess and both continue to try to do so, whilst the world watches and argues about who is the most responsible / who deserves support. Neither side gives a flying fuck about Palestinian or Israeli innocents, at least above and beyond that where they serve the goal of optics and support for wiping out the other side.
citation ^^^desperately ^^^needed ↩︎
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He said, while doing the mental gymnastics to avoid remembering that Hamas does in fact use civilians buildings and the civilians inside as a human shields for his own subterranean tunnels under said civilians buildings.
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If you feel the need to express your unswerving support for the actions of the Israeli state under this news article, please tell us, how you see the mass destruction of civilian homes justified and necessary.
Usual disclaimer: I support neither side here. Both use horrible methods to achieve their goals and I hope for a ceasefire and improvement of both governments. From my limited information a revolution will likely be needed in case of Palestine, in Israel elections may suffice.
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You can be anti-Hamas without needing to be pro-Israel, though
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A permanent ceasefire that involves lifting the blockade. It worked in 2008 and 2012, except for the part where Israel didn’t actually lift the blockade. Then a real two-state solution, none of this one state, one ghetto and a bunch of Bantustans nonsense Israel is doing. Remember: Peace only lost support in Palestine because it didn’t work, not because Palestinians don’t want peace.
To quote Bassem Youssef, terrorism is a virus, and to get rid of a virus you need to give the patient water, nutrients and rest. You don’t get rid of viruses by hitting the patient with a sledgehammer.
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Hmm, they managed to rescue 1/240 hostages for a month. Apparently that’s a pretty bad score. Not to mention that they are actively bombing tunnels where those hostages are thought to be held, so potentially they have killed some of them.
And by disabling Hamas ability to strike they killed ten thousand and counting people, destroyed civilian infrastructure, and caused unimaginable humanitarian catastrophe. Committed numerous war crimes and in general they showed to the world that they aren’t any better than Hamas if not worse.
Mind you by the time this all ends up the human cost and suffering inflicted on the regular civilians would be even greater. And I can tell you that’s a recipe for a disaster. You can’t dehumanize people and push them to the edge and then expect them to co-operate. I wonder what would be left of Gaza by the time Israel sate their bloodlust.
And none of those will be accomplished with what Israel is doing. Hamas will need time to recover, but “being unable to strike” isn’t happening. They have enough foreign support and a wealth of recruits.
I don’t have a solution. I’m half a planet away, and geopolitics is not my field. I’m not a world leader, nor a military strategist, or anything that would qualify me to make a decision or have an informed answer.
I might be a spineless fence-sitter, but I don’t like what Israel is doing, and I don’t like what Hamas is doing. For that reason, I wouldn’t call myself pro-Israel or pro-Hamas.
Do you think the number or recruits increased or decreased after incessantly murdering innocent civilians?
I just want to ask also, how do you stop more Hamas by killing people? You don’t. The Hydra effect will guarantee that any one terrorist killed will breed two more. Yesterday my partner looked at me and said, “If Israel had killed my entire family, I would probably join Hamas”, and he’s an atheist and a Brit who learned most of what he learned about Hamas this year.
What Israel is doing is creating more opportunities for massacre in the future. I am not sure why, but I’m convinced there is a genocidal agenda here.
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That’s a false dichotomy, and one alternative approach was already provided in the comment you originally replied to.
Certainly there are even more alternatives that exist in the miles wide gap between “raze all of gaza” and “stand idle”.
First they should try to invest into defense, maybe some sort of air defense system to mitigate the almost daily rocket and missile launches.
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Now that they have killed so many civilians, it’s gonna be tough. They aren’t making it better as they continue destroying homes, hospitals, and refugee camps though. The time to try treating them like humans was before the recent attack.
Here’s what I can tell you for sure:
Do my bullet points solve the problem? Hell no. But my (or your) inability to come up with a solution doesn’t mean there isn’t a better one than what they are currently doing, and doesn’t support the idea that their only other option is to do nothing. Neither of us (presumably) are world leaders with experience in this area. But when shit comes out of my sink faucets, I don’t need to be a plumber to know that mine has fucked up.
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The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Yes Hamas is a terror organization, no, that does not allow you to behave like a terror organization when fighting them.
If you have read the article this is not about innocents which where at the wrong place a the wrong time. This article is about deliberate destruction of civilian buildings without giving any justification besides ‘There are some things that we see that you don’t see.’ in some cases evacuation was allowed, in some cases no time for evacuation was given. There is in my eyes no justification for this.
I never said that Israel should stand idle. So don’t push that opinion on me.
What could be done? Attack military targets only, give civilians time to evacuate. (Yes a civilian home becomes a military target if it is used as weapons stash/factory, but there was no indication at all in the cases listed in the article), support the more moderate Fatah in regaining control. Support new democratic elections. Provide help in forms primarily targeted at civilians: Food, water, education. Allow students from the Gaza Strip to study abroad. Part of that is already done, but hampered by the military actions.
Destroying peoples homes and basic utilities will only ensure that hate on Israel grows and support for Hamas remains steady.
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Did israel bomb the south of Gaza after telling people to go south or not?
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But should Israel kill all these civilians for “revenge” or what exactly is their plan in your opinion?
This is the thing that gets me - what would you do if someone barricaded themselves inside a house next door, kept taking pot shots and you and stealing people off the street? I would shoot back.
That analogy breaks down when you’re the guy that locked them in the house.
Until you realise you locked them in the house after them and their friends tried to take your back yard when you were having a domestic with your partner, and a founding part of their cult is that you need to die.
(Hamas not cult, just analogy)
Israel is literally the one stealing backyards, and when it can’t, it bombs them.
Not just the backyards, but the front and side yards too
Nah if we’re gonna continue this analogy, it’s like if you come across a village of 50 people then force everyone into one house so you can have your friends move into the other houses. Then 1 of those 50 starts shooting at you. So then you drop a grenade in the house, kill a bunch of their kids and shoot their dog.
And would kill 10 innocents in the house just to get to that one guy?
Honestly, probably.
So how are you any better than the terrorist you condemn, by openly admitting you are ready to shoot 10 civilians? At what number of civilians do you make the cut 20, 50, 100, 500, 1000?
Poor fucking you. Could try having some sympathy for the kids killed in a paediatric hospital in the last week.
Empathy for 4000 dead kids is a controversial opinion apparently.
I’ve been called a terrorist supporter for explicitly expressing concern for the innocent victims 🤷
Yeah but did you condemn Hamas thrice daily before doing so? Common mistake.
Lmao, this is exactly what they were talking about
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You’d think as an oppressed minority in the world, you’d be more outraged at Israel for their continued oppression of Palestinians. I know plenty of other Jews that feel this way.
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Almost no one out there is supporting Hamas, and if you unilaterally support Israel, you are anti-Palestinian. The fact that you think fighting Hamas includes indiscriminately bombing civilians shows you are in support of the ongoing genocide of an ethnic minority. And to call yourself a minority to try to gain sympathy is pathetic at best. The KKK is also a minority, so by your logic, we should all try to sympathize with their plight.
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imagine hearing a neo nazi talk like you do. That’s how people are starting to associate Israel and their genocide.
You aren’t a persecuted minority, you’re just a person that willingly doesn’t want to understand so the hate can continue. What is happening is clearly not okay to anyone with even a hint of a moral compass.
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I brought up neo Nazis so you would understand that you are as much a persecuted minority as they are. By supporting Israel and not criticizing them loudly, you are encouraging more civilian bloodshed.
I never outright called you a nazi, but you are someone that supports a racist apartheid state that is currently in the middle of a genocide. It’s not a good look.
I know it’s hard to realize that all the truths you were raised on were lies, that even family members can be downright evil in what they say and hope for. You can either keep the cycle going or be an adult about it.
It’s so cool how people who support a genocide will just straight up tell you like this.
Funny how you just completely confirmed OPs hesitancy to post. You are not a minority for supporting the IDF.
Seems like they are on Lemmy
Oh no
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If you look at the actions of Western media and governments, it’s pretty clear who is the minority. Palestinian activists have become much more vocal because they’re the minority, and no one is standing up for Gazans.
Regardless, you are not being persecuted, by saying so you’re trivializing those that are.
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I think you need to look up what it means to be persecuted
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Notice how the comment you replied to, despite claiming they “always get hate” has nothing but supportive people upvoting, while you have 3 angry lions going for the neck because you dare to say you support Israel…
It has come too far to ever work. This community, @world, is no longer a place for biased news. I have had to block for a long time, but just came back to see if it was still such a mess. Turns out it is.
The worst thing is that the mods here are directly supporting this.
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Yes, I meant unbiased, sorry.
But look at our scores. We are voices that defies the echo chamber. Therefor we must be silenced.
It sucks, because I actually genuinely was happy for Lemmy, and had moved all my browsing over here. But alas, it seems that I can no longer use this platform for news. I will go back to having this community blocked.
PS) Try going to r/worldnews and Reddit, and check what the tone of audience is over there. Much more biased towards Israel, which is a no-brainer in my world.
Did you just equate downvotes with being silenced?
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